Road Trip Draft 2: SF. 2mufc0 vs GSTQ

Who will win based on all the players at their club career peak as mentioned?


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Theon

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@2mufc0

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I'm happy with Kalle now but Henry didn't really like playing in Pep's side so I'm a bit dubious there. Thanks for confirming the high line. I still think Koeman could be an issue. I don't think it's fair to call him the only CB in Cruyff's Dream Team. He was at the centre of a back three. Now I will grant that the wide centre backs were reasonably attacking as far as wide CBs go but I think it gives more protection than essentially Nesta.

One final question, do Facchetti and Cafu go up at the same time or does one stay more conservative?
Completely disagree with you on both of those statements. When Nadal wasn't playing Koeman was the sole centre back in Cruyff's Dream Team - this wasn't the 'centre of a back three' in a traditional sense with three centre backs. The back three included the fullbacks, such as Sergi or Ferrer.

Please tell me how Facchetti / Nesta / Cafu in a standard 4-3-3 are providing Koeman with less protection that these line ups:







In terms of Henry he moved to Barcelona at 30 years old after a poor final season at Arsenal and clearly past his peak as a player - particularly given he was an explosive player who utilised his pace and acceleration. His first season under Rijkaard (NOT Guardiola) was under-whelming and supported some peoples view at the time that he was finished at the top level.

Enter Guardiola: "In his second season at Barça, Henry rediscovered his youth, rolling back the years and forming an integral part of a lethal trident with Samuel Eto’o and Lionel Messi. A standout two-goal display in the Santiago Bernabeu is perhaps best remembered, after the forward tore Sergio Ramos to shreds and proved that he still had pace to burn. But there were several other noteworthy performances in which his class proved the difference. The Frenchman’s part in their historic treble can sometimes be underappreciated by international observers. Ask any Catalan who watched the Blaugrana closely over the course of the season, however, and they will tell you just how good he was."

In terms of performance Henry scored 26 goals and 10 assists for Guardiola as he helped the team win a historic Treble - that's as a 31 year old past his peak player who was playing in the MLS in 12 months time... really underwhelming!

Outside of performances Henry has been clear that he idolises and looks up to Pep - when he took the Monoco job he states that Pep is the "reference for him" as a manager and that he wants to emulate his approach to football. He's also spoken on Sky and stated Guardiola taught him “how to play football again at 30 years old... I suddenly saw the game in a different way - understanding space, understanding staying in your position, understanding you have to give 100 per cent at everything. His attention to detail is second to none.”

Really have no idea how you can twist or reduce successful achievements on the pitch and clear idolisation towards him as a manager as Henry "not really liking to play in Pep's side". Literally the only thing that happened is that Guardiola has his precise and scientific way of playing football which caused Henry to need to adapt his game to be more positionally responsible - that's the same process Guardiola goes through with most of his players.
 

Physiocrat

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@Theon I was only aware of the quotes about not liking it originally at Barca under Pep so I stand corrected.

With respect to Koeman however I'm pretty sure Ferrer and J Carlos had less attacking remit than would Facchetti and Cafu in your setup. Is this correct?

My understanding of the 343 diamond is that the shutters in the diamond provide a reasonable amount of width. I can see Iniesta replicating this but not the elder Scholes. If they don't provide width there is more onus on Facchetti and Cafu to get forward than Ferrer or J Carlos which I think could then leave you exposed defensively with a high line and the lack of two pacey CBs
 

Theon

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With respect to Koeman however I'm pretty sure Ferrer and J Carlos had less attacking remit than would Facchetti and Cafu in your setup. Is this correct?

My understanding of the 343 diamond is that the shutters in the diamond provide a reasonable amount of width. I can see Iniesta replicating this but not the elder Scholes. If they don't provide width there is more onus on Facchetti and Cafu to get forward than Ferrer or J Carlos which I think could then leave you exposed defensively with a high line and the lack of two pacey CBs
Mate I'm not even sure where to begin - that Dream Team system is one of the more obvious attacking formations that we've seen in modern football and provides far less defensive stability than an orthodox back four in a 4-3-3 with Alessandro Nesta as the freaking-CB partner.

Ferrer and Sergi were traditional fullbacks as opposed to centre backs and whilst obviously they were less attacking than Cafu / Facchetti I don't think either were 1. Close to being better defenders (particularly compared to Facchetti, who is a league above) and 2. That being slightly less attacking as fullbacks somehow makes a three man backline with just one CB more secure than a back four - it's not as if Cafu and Facchetti don't get back during the defensive phase either.

What you're effectively saying is that the additional attacking runs of Facchetti / Cafu in possession over Sergi / Ferrer weakens the defensive protection to such an extent that adding an extra world-class centre back doesn't outweigh it - I disagree entirely and don't think its close to be correct.

If the Dream Team had proper elite hybrid-CB/FBs like Maldini and Thuram flanking Koeman in a back three then I think the comparison would be a lot closer.
 

Physiocrat

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@Theon I haven't seen the Dream team for a while and don't remember exactly how the full-backs worked. My thinking was that the wide midfielders do most most of the work and the full-backs support with Guardiola as the DM. So there's on average in possession Koeman has two full-backs near him whereas in your setup he would have only one. Now that one is far, far better than the Dream Team full-backs at defending but my point is more of a numbers one.

Is my understanding of how the Dream Team full-backs work incorrect?
 

2mufc0

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@2mufc0



One final question, do Facchetti and Cafu go up at the same time or does one stay more conservative?
No, as they won't need too, both are intelligent to know when to go forward and when to sit back. There won't be any specific instruction for them to go simultaneously up. When Facchetti pushes up Cafu will stay in a neutral position and vice versa.
 

2mufc0

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@Theon I haven't seen the Dream team for a while and don't remember exactly how the full-backs worked. My thinking was that the wide midfielders do most most of the work and the full-backs support with Guardiola as the DM. So there's on average in possession Koeman has two full-backs near him whereas in your setup he would have only one. Now that one is far, far better than the Dream Team full-backs at defending but my point is more of a numbers one.

Is my understanding of how the Dream Team full-backs work incorrect?
If you watch the Koeman video I posted you'll see first hand how it worked. I think this setup is much more sound as Nesta and Facchetti will be covering, I don't think it can get any better. In terms of support, Koeman would have Facchetti to the left, Nesta to the right and Cerezo in central areas.
 

Theon

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@Theon I haven't seen the Dream team for a while and don't remember exactly how the full-backs worked. My thinking was that the wide midfielders do most most of the work and the full-backs support with Guardiola as the DM. So there's on average in possession Koeman has two full-backs near him whereas in your setup he would have only one. Now that one is far, far better than the Dream Team full-backs at defending but my point is more of a numbers one.

Is my understanding of how the Dream Team full-backs work incorrect?
But even if he did just have one fullback near him in the offensive phase (let's say Cafu pushes up into attack) then Koeman STILL has Nesta and Facchetti supporting defensively - and one of those players is a proper centre back who offers far more security than a FB such as Sergi does.

And that's in the offensive phase - in the defensive phase Cafu would be expected to support the team and Koeman defensively by getting back into position, the way Alves was expected to do for example. So in terms of the 'numbers' in the defensive phase its 4 vs 3.... but really the more important number is 2 vs 1 centre back. The focus on fullbacks is a bit neither here or there, the point is really that here Koeman has a proper centre half next to him which makes the whole thing far more secure.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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@Physiocrat

The comparison between the Dream Team and Pep's team defense is very weird. One simply can't use the example of a 3 man defense with a 4 man one.

FYI, at its very best this is how Pep's Barcelona looked when in its ideal shape (something Pep was obsessed with).

So much circulation of the ball would need players to be spread out across the pitch to have as much space as possible to be comfortable on the ball and to tire the opposition down. It also helps create the maximum number of triangles, another thing which Pep was obsessed with.

Look at the positioning of No.2 and No.3 for example. They can't cover for the No. 5 and No. 6 centrally. They are on their own.

You can't have partial tiki taka with one FB staying back and one attacking. Even Abidal attacked.

As I have said multiple times, its a high risk high reward system and using it partially kills its essence and effectiveness. Something Guardiola would never compromise with.

As you can see, the two CB's are on their own with a high line. If they dont have pace, they are done.

 
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Physiocrat

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If you watch the Koeman video I posted you'll see first hand how it worked. I think this setup is much more sound as Nesta and Facchetti will be covering, I don't think it can get any better. In terms of support, Koeman would have Facchetti to the left, Nesta to the right and Cerezo in central areas.
I watched the video. It looked like a back three out of possession to me
 

Physiocrat

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But even if he did just have one fullback near him in the offensive phase (let's say Cafu pushes up into attack) then Koeman STILL has Nesta and Facchetti supporting defensively - and one of those players is a proper centre back who offers far more security than a FB such as Sergi does.

And that's in the offensive phase - in the defensive phase Cafu would be expected to support the team and Koeman defensively by getting back into position, the way Alves was expected to do for example. So in terms of the 'numbers' in the defensive phase its 4 vs 3.... but really the more important number is 2 vs 1 centre back. The focus on fullbacks is a bit neither here or there, the point is really that here Koeman has a proper centre half next to him which makes the whole thing far more secure.
Ok, if only one full-back pushes up at a time then fine but I think that will make your attacks somewhat one sided since Kalle nor Henry are someone who can provide width on their own and be at their best. My questions were predicated on both Facchetti and Cafu attacking at the same time.

Now this is less of a problem on the left and Iniesta is adept outwide but Scholes isn't.
 

2mufc0

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Ok, if only one full-back pushes up at a time then fine but I think that will make your attacks somewhat one sided since Kalle nor Henry are someone who can provide width on their own and be at their best. My questions were predicated on both Facchetti and Cafu attacking at the same time.

Now this is less of a problem on the left and Iniesta is adept outwide but Scholes isn't.
I've never seen a system where both full backs pushed forward at the same time, it's nonsense. The starting position may be higher but both attacking at the same time is pointless and frankly stupid.
 

Physiocrat

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I've never seen a system where both full backs pushed forward at the same time, it's nonsense. The starting position may be higher but both attacking at the same time is pointless and frankly stupid.
That's not entirely true. Otherwise why were there articles saying that Pep had reinvented the 2-3-5 when he was at Barca?

Back on the previous issue assuming the Dream Team with respect to Koeman, was less solid defensively than yours having a slow CB who in Cruyff's words couldn't defend against GSTQ's fire power is ambitious
 
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2mufc0

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That's not entirely true. Otherwise why were there articles saying that Pep had reinvented the 2-3-5 when he was at Barca
Like I said the starting position may be slightly higher but both full backs won't be attacking at the same time.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Great game @2mufc0 @Theon

The best compliment I can give your team is that I had to change my entire setup as I was afraid of facing your team.

A couple of points on the reinforcements.

I expected you to take Voronin first and then Ferdinand. I would have most likely lost the game against them instead of Koeman/Cerezo. Cheers.
 

2mufc0

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Great game @2mufc0 @Theon

The best compliment I can give your team is that I had to change my entire setup as I was afraid of facing your team.

A couple of points on the reinforcements.

I expected you to take Voronin first and then Ferdinand. I would have most likely lost the game against them instead of Koeman/Cerezo. Cheers.
Congrats! Great move changing up the team, we weren't quite sure how you were going to setup.

Didn't know there was a route from Russia to England!