Road Trip Draft II 1st Round: Himannv vs Sjor Bepo

[Moby]

Welcome to the Road Trip Draft II KO Stage.

Only the club career for the clubs mentioned against player names will be considered for evaluation. No national teams performances count whatsoever.

VS

TEAM HIMANNV

- Quality all over the pitch.
- Best player on the pitch in Pele. Seeler is a complementary option in front of him.
- Robson covers every blade of grass in midfield, while Coluna adds the creativity
- Solid defense led by Moore.


TEAM SJOR BEPO

Basic Layout: 4-4-2 with mostly hard-working players and an emphasis on verticality in offense.

In goal the team features Fabian Barthez. United fans have an oftentimes unfavorable recollection of The Divine Bald One because of his eccentric displays with the club, but he had long established himself as a true legend of both French and Ligue 1 football — winning the Trophées UNFP du football Lifetime award, IFFHS World's Best Goalkeeper award, Ligue 1 Goalkeeper of the Year award, multiple Ligue 1 titles and the Champions League title with Marseille in 1993 — conceding only 4 goals through 10 matches prior to the final vs. Milan, where he kept a clean sheet and make key interventions.
In the Marseille goal, young Fabien Barthez was in terrific form. He was quick off his line when Massaro found himself in space behind the Marseille backline and made another fantastic point-blank save to keep the Italian striker at bay. In the second-half, Barthez and his defence held solid. The goalkeeper largely kept L’OM in the game; a solid punch under pressure from an Albertini cross an example of his dominant display at such a young age. When the final whistle blew, L’OM were Champions of Europe. Bernard Tapie’s dream of building a team capable of competing on a continental scale had become a reality in Munich. For Barthez, it was a sign of the success he had to come in his career.

Starting out in defense, Pietro Vierchowod and Roberto Perfumo are among the most noteworthy centerbacks in club football...and perfect for this theme because they would have been rated much higher in All-Time estimations if their national team careers were as exemplary as their club careers. The former is considered the first great modern centerback from Italy after Franco Baresi as calcio moved from deep sweepers of Catenaccio and Zona Mista, and won the Guerin d'Oro for Best Player in Serie A in 1983...a feat matched by only one other central defender (Ruud Krol). Vierchowod also memorably led Sampdoria to the Serie A summit and the European Cup final — while winning 2 Serie A titles, 1 Champions League title and 5 Coppa Italia titles overall.

Vierchowod] was an animal, he had muscles to the eyelashes. It was easy to pass by him, but then when I raised my head, he was in front of me again. I would have to pass him two or three more times and then I would pass the ball because I couldn't stand him anymore — Diego Maradona

And the latter is fondly remembered as El Mariscal for his commanding displays with Racing Club and River Plate — and widely considered the best centerback in Argentine club football after a certain Daniel Passarella. Over a decade-long stint in Argentine clubs, Perfumo won 4 Primera División titles, a Copa Libertadores title and an Intercontinental Cup while being a mainstay in the El Grafico Team of the Year ratings, and even finishing atop the Metro ranking list (including all players in all positions) a couple of times...which speaks to his immense pedigree, even as a mere defender.
In Racing was really good as defender, the best of era imo, started playing as DMF and then as CB by the right side he did wonderful had the ability to play virtually alone on the defensive line, in that team that was very dynamic and with presence in all the pitch, in fact, he was remembered "by force" the other defenders to go on the attack in that great "Equipo de José" remembered by the history of Argentine football.

Manning the flanks are Berti Vogts and Ashley Cole — who are among the most defensively compact fullbacks in club football...providing ample security for the wingers, and also helping out the centerback duo. The former won 5 Bundesliga titles and 2 UEFA Cup titles with the great Borussia Mönchengladbach team of the '70s, and was voted into the Kicker Bundesliga Team of the Season an astonishing 10 times (which is a record after Franz Beckenbauer)...

And the latter is arguably the most complete and fearless leftback of the post-Maldini period — while winning everything club football had to offer...

He has been one of the greatest players the Premier League has seen. As a full-back there is nobody better in Premier League history — Alan Hansen


The midfield of Fernando Redondo and Frank Rijkaard is one of the best all-around duos possible in this draft or others. Redondo is going to be the primary playmaker of this portion of the pitch given his exemplary range of passing and architectural ability...qualities that established him as the pre-eminent central midfield in club football in the late '90s where he was the crown jewel of a Madrid team that won 2 Champions League titles in 3 seasons and won the UEFA Club Footballer of the Year in 2000.

“WHAT DOES THIS player have in his boots? A magnet?” Sir Alex Ferguson was bewildered. It’s 19 April 2000 and his Manchester United side, the reigning champions of Europe, had just been dumped out of the Champions League by Real Madrid at Old Trafford in a pulsating tie.

And the latter doesn't need much of an introduction — the gold standard of defensive midfield play in club football, twice Ballon D'Or podium finisher, Guerin d'Oro for Best Player in Serie A in 1992, a lynchpin of what is considered one of the greatest teams of all time, and a consummate big game player!


Out wide are two of the best fits for the approach that is being employed: Zoltán Czibor and David Beckham. The former is probably the archetypal outside left and 3 time Hungarian champion — renowned for his crossing ability, powerful shot, pace and majestic ball control...and during his playing career in Hungarian club football, Czibor scored a total of 200+ goals:

Spoiler: via Federal University of Paraná football stats archive

And the latter is the greatest of all time in terms of crossing ability and set piece delivery (which are a perfect complement to the forwards — who both relished aerial duels), and offers a diverse range of passing...once runner-up in the Ballon d'Or, twice runner-up for FIFA World Player of the Year, thrice Premier League assist leader, four times PFA Team of the Season nominee and once UEFA Club Footballer of the Year (as well as UEFA Club Midfielder of the Year), on top of being a PFA Team of the Century inductee.


Last but not least, you have two exemplary forwards leading the charge — Alberto Spencer and Cristiano Ronaldo. The former is affectionately remembered as Cabeza Mágica (Spanish for magic head) as a tall and ambidextrous striker with lethal pace, off-the-ball movement, heading and balance skills, and excellent finishing best known for his still-standing record for scoring the most goals in the Copa Libertadores, the most important club tournament in South America. Spencer was also winner of the Intercontinental Cup twice, beating Eusebio's Benfica and Real Madrid, and was runner-up once. In addition to that he was four times the leading scorer of Uruguay's League with Peñarol, helping them to win the Uruguayan championship eight times during his 12-year stay. Throughout his professional career, he scored a grand total of 450 goals, surpassing 500, if friendlies were taken into account.

Someone that headed better than me was Spencer. I was good (in heading), but he was spectacular heading the ball. In general, he would do it with a burst, but without actually sprinting — Pelé

And the latter is considered by many to be one of the greatest footballers of all time as well as the greatest footballer in the history of the Champions League with a spate of records to his name while in Spain...four Ballon d'Or awards, the most for a European player, and the first player to win four European Golden Shoes, the most goals scored in the UEFA Champions League (126) as well as those for most assists in the Champions League (44), 34 La Liga hat-tricks, including a record-tying eight hat-tricks in the 2014–15 season and is the only player to reach 30 goals in six consecutive La Liga seasons. And also an incredibly decisive player when you consider his Champions League knockout round performances!

• Most goals scored in the UEFA Champions League knockout stages
• Most goals scored in the UEFA Champions League quarter-finals
• Most goals scored in the UEFA Champions League semi-finals
• Most goals scored in a single UEFA Champions League knockout phase: 10 goals in 2016–17
• Real Madrid all-time top goalscorer: 451 goals

And as a combination, the quartet of Czibor-Beckham-Spencer-Ronaldo gives the team near complete supremacy in the air from open play as well as set pieces — and will be a handful to contain for the opposition defense.

 

[Moby]

Good luck @Himannv @Šjor Bepo

 

[Himannv]

I had like 4 lines and Sjor has written 4 pages.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Firstly, Cristiano and Spencer on the end of Beckham and Czibor's crosses against a defense that has Godin, Moore and Gentile.
Fecking hell, that will be wild with someone bleeding out for sure.

I have 1 problem with each team.

For team Himannv, Coluna and Robson were both attacking B2B's. Both of course had defensive acumen, but are better suited when partnered with a more defensive player beside them.

For team Sjor, Czibor with Ronaldo while looks amazing on paper when you put the formation graphic like that, I don't think its a great combination.

Czibor was very much a wing forward and liked to roam a lot. Scored quite a fair bit and was often seen central in and around the box.

I don't think this setup suits him very well.

 

[harms]

Barthez with hair? That's a bold choice.

Fantastic teams, I'm struggling to choose the outcome at the moment.

 

[Theon]

Fantastic teams, I'm struggling to choose the outcome at the moment.

Agreed. Two of the best teams by far.

Probably leaning to Sjor based on how smooth that 4-4-2 looks.

 

[Physiocrat]

Czibor was very much a wing forward and liked to roam a lot. Scored quite a fair bit and was often seen central in and around the box.

That's true although when Ronaldo drops deeper Czibor can move ahead to give him another central option or at least occupy the CB and or RB to put away a long shot. Also Cole was a decent overlapper.

I don't think it's perfect but it's not that much of a problem IMO

 

[Šjor Bepo]

For team Sjor, Czibor with Ronaldo while looks amazing on paper when you put the formation graphic like that, I don't think its a great combination.

Czibor was very much a wing forward and liked to roam a lot. Scored quite a fair bit and was often seen central in and around the box.

I don't think this setup suits him very well.

Its peak Cristiano, read old version from Madrid when he stopped with fancy flicks and retarded shooting from every position on the pitch. That version uses the ball well, prefers to play centrally and is intelligent enough to let others create while he focuses on his greatest asset which is final third play.
What ever you think of the team or the game there is absolutely no chance he doesnt score here.

As for Czibor, only watched him against England but he provided plenthy of width and if anyone shined with players entering attacking inside left channel its him who had Puskas, Hidegkuti and Kocsis as teammates.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

That's true although when Ronaldo drops deeper Czibor can move ahead to give him another central option or at least occupy the CB and or RB to put away a long shot. Also Cole was a decent overlapper.

I don't think it's perfect but it's not that much of a problem IMO

I think its workable too, but I do think Czibor will have to play a limited role here which wouldn't be the best use of him. I do think it limits CR to a decent extent too.

Its peak Cristiano, read old version from Madrid when he stopped with fancy flicks and retarded shooting from every position on the pitch. That version uses the ball well, prefers to play centrally and is intelligent enough to let others create while he focuses on his greatest asset which is final third play.

For me, apart from the diamond years (Isco behind Benzema/CR), he always started left wards and ended up centrally. Even in the diamond years, he had a good amount of linkup with Marcelo. His heat map would still show a good amount of leftward play. There is a distinct difference between that setup and this.

What ever you think of the team or the game there is absolutely no chance he doesnt score here.

Without a question of doubt. I would never question that.

As for Czibor, only watched him against England but he provided plenthy of width and if anyone shined with players entering attacking inside left channel its him who had Puskas, Hidegkuti and Kocsis as teammates.

Was pretty sure this response would come, but Puskas more often than not was a central player who liked to drop left wards. Ronaldo was the opposite. Started leftwards and dropped centrally. Similar to how Czibor operated as well.

With Czibor + Puskas, you get a very different chemistry as compared to Czibor + CR

Again, its not like its a tactical blunder. I still wouldn't call it anywhere near my definition of ideal though.

Might not seem like it makes sense to a few though (cc: @harms ), but that is how I see it. Cheers

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I think its workable too, but I do think Czibor will have to play a limited role here which wouldn't be the best use of him. I do think it limits CR to a decent extent too.

Only impact that have on his game is scoring wise IMO and thats always going to happen with GOAT goalscorer in the team. On the other hand he will have even more freedom to create.

For me, apart from the diamond years (Isco behind Benzema/CR), he always started left wards and ended up centrally. Even in the diamond years, he had a good amount of linkup with Marcelo. His heat map would still show a good amount of leftward play. There is a distinct difference between that setup and this.

Didnt say there isnt a difference, taking his qualities and game tendencies into mind he was perfect for this role IMO even though he never played it in real life, which is something most players face in a draft game.

Was pretty sure this response would come, but Puskas more often than not was a centrally player who liked to drop left wards. Ronaldo was the opposite. Started leftwards and dropped centrally. Exactly how Czibor operated as well.

Well, Ronaldo role is a bit different here. If anything it adds to the chemistry...when Ronaldo drifts a bit to the left and lets be realistic, he will always do that at certain point it opens up space for Czibor to exploit in the inside left channel.

 

[Physiocrat]

Didnt say there isnt a difference, taking his qualities and game tendencies into mind he was perfect for this role IMO even though he never played it in real life, which is something most players face in a draft game.

Yep, in times past Ronaldo would have definitely been a second-striker.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Alberto Spencer is named the 20th best South American player in history at the IFFHS Century Selections. Personally couldnt care less about awards as i think they are a fraud but its interesting to see how highly he was rated.

Being 20th though indicates how good Spencer was considering he has no NT brownie points to collect, relative to higher ranked players who mainly plied their trade in South America and played for big nations.

Overall, Spencer was not precisely 10 places better off than Romario, but he really was a cracking player. In Peñarol's victorious two-leg final against Real in '66 he scored three of Peñarol's 4 goals (2 away at the Bernabeu, if I recall correctly).

Once, in one of the many European friendlies that were organised to showcase South America's best to the European public, Pelé actually came up to him, with Peñarol 5-0 up against Santos (4 by Spencer), and asked him to stop humilliating them or it would all end in a messy punch up. He was one of the greatest, at a time when they weren't scarce at all.

So if we take in mind national performances dont count here he should be rated even higher. There are only few games of him available but you can see the guy was a pure menace, not just in the air as thats always being placed up front when his names is mentioned but his all-round game was very good, good workrate, great movement and the part that surprised me the most was that he was pretty damn good with ball in his feet, for some reason i didnt expect that.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Only impact that have on his game is scoring wise IMO and thats always going to happen with GOAT goalscorer in the team. On the other hand he will have even more freedom to create.



Didnt say there isnt a difference, taking his qualities and game tendencies into mind he was perfect for this role IMO even though he never played it in real life, which is something most players face in a draft game.






Well, Ronaldo role is a bit different here. If anything it adds to the chemistry...when Ronaldo drifts a bit to the left and lets be realistic, he will always do that at certain point it opens up space for Czibor to exploit in the inside left channel.

I'll just leave a last word. I'd have used him as the right forward. Natural transition to 433 when Beckham goes central and more space for Czibor

 

[Himannv]

For team Himannv, Coluna and Robson were both attacking B2B's. Both of course had defensive acumen, but are better suited when partnered with a more defensive player beside them.

From what I've seen, I feel they'll both be fine playing together in a double pivot. They're both good enough defensively for it to work. Point taken though; a DLP type would have been a better fit.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

btw good luck @Himannv , lovely team and i like everything apart from Gentile who im not a fan

 

[Himannv]

Good luck, @Šjor Bepo. You've got a couple of my favourites in your side there.

 

[Jim Beam]

Love Czibor here. It gives another route to the goal and direct goal threat.

Love Pele too. Good player.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

From what I've seen, I feel they'll both be fine playing together in a double pivot. They're both good enough defensively for it to work. Point taken though; a DLP type would have been a better fit.

Aye, doesn't matter too much in this game as there is no number 10, but against a Goat number 10, could be problematic.

 

[Synco]

From what I've seen, I feel they'll both be fine playing together in a double pivot. They're both good enough defensively for it to work. Point taken though; a DLP type would have been a better fit.

If the descriptions in this great thread are anything to go by, I'd expect Robson to be a good or even excellent fit for that more defensive role.

One part that stuck with me:

Spoiler

There have been plenty of 'offensive box to box goalscoring midfielders', such as Gerrard, Ballack, Lampard who married excellent goalscoring ability with grit and industry. How many of these midfielders would have been at home at centre-back, let alone as the holding midfielder? How many of them would have been favourably compared with Sir Bobby Moore of all people?

I actually think that his best position would have been in the middle of a back four, like Bobby Moore. I think he could have played that role in his sleep, because Bryan wasn't particularly quick but he could read it well. It was just that he was too valuable a player in midfield to be given a defensive role. He played left-back for me at West Brom, but Bryan could play in most positions.

He was one of the best trackers in the game - when the opposing midfield player is on the ball, to track him is to get after him, get a tackle in, win the ball back. Bryan was also a very good header of the ball, and very brave when attacking the ball in the air in general.

(Bolded parts by J.B.)

 

[Himannv]

Not much to really nitpick in this game. Both are good teams so it will probably come down to personal preference.

I've watched a fair bit of Seeler recently and he's just such a busy player. He's always moving and being a nuisance to opposition defenses. I watched him in a friendly vs Brazil and I was just thinking how great they would be as a combination. Seeler would occupy the defense so much that it frees up Pele more. It's what made me pick him so early in the draft. He's tailor made to work with almost any attacker, but I think someone like Pele would just be devastating in that little pocket of space just behind him.

 

[Himannv]

If the descriptions in this great thread are anything to go by, I'd expect Robson to be a good or even excellent fit for that more defensive role.

One part that stuck with me:

Spoiler

(Bolded parts by J.B.)

I watched the box-to-box version of him at United so that's what I know of him. I think he's great defensively but didn't think he'd potentially fit in as a sort of DLP. Very interesting.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I've watched a fair bit of Seeler recently and he's just such a busy player. He's always moving and being a nuisance to opposition defenses. I watched him in a friendly vs Brazil and I was just thinking how great they would be as a combination. Seeler would occupy the defense so much that it frees up Pele more. It's what made me pick him so early in the draft. He's tailor made to work with almost any attacker, but I think someone like Pele would just be devastating in that little pocket of space just behind him.

Agreed, he really is a dream teammate to any player that ever played the game.

 

[Synco]

I've watched a fair bit of Seeler recently and he's just such a busy player. He's always moving and being a nuisance to opposition defenses. I watched him in a friendly vs Brazil and I was just thinking how great they would be as a combination. Seeler would occupy the defense so much that it frees up Pele more. It's what made me pick him so early in the draft. He's tailor made to work with almost any attacker, but I think someone like Pele would just be devastating in that little pocket of space just behind him.

I was thinking about that pair, because their usual scopes of action/movement seem somewhat similar to me... but that's probably the answer. Would also underline that Seeler was a rare combination of outstanding ability and totally unselfish teamplayer mentality, so I can imagine that combination working very well.

 

[Moby]

Pele and Seeler is a brilliant front two.

 

[Synco]

Beckham => Ronaldo, can't get much better, lots of work for Moore & Godin.

Two great teams, really.

(Just seeing, Barthez had hair once?)

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Beckham => Ronaldo, can't get much better, lots of work for Moore & Godin.

Two great teams, really.

(Just seeing, Barthez had hair once?)

its like they shaved his talents in manchester

 

[Synco]

its like they shaved his talents in manchester

I had to look twice if it's really him there - but his facial expression gave him away!

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Almost chickened out from voting as there is hardly anything between them.

My initial reaction was to vote Sjor. That front 6 is really eye catching.

But when you look at the defenses, I found Himannv's to be the more likely one to keep the opposition out.

Went with Himannv in the end although there is a high chance this ends in a draw most times.

 

[Jim Beam]

Since mjj was banned everyone went AWOL.

Ok, question. And it is probably just me. There is something with Redondo - Rijkaard I can't put my finger on really. Lack of goal threat, both being maybe better suited with a non holding midfielder? Not really sure... Rijkaard was brilliant in 4-4-2, Redondo never played in it.

On the other hand, if you asked for a better pair to contain Pele at 10 it's them. Mbappe is a type of wide attacker you would want here but a bit unproven. Tough one.

 

[Synco]

Ok, question. And it is probably just me. There is something with Redondo - Rijkaard I can't put my finger on really. Lack of goal threat, both being maybe better suited with a non holding midfielder? Not really sure... Rijkaard was brilliant in 4-4-2, Redondo never played in it.

My picture of both players very much includes playmaking ability and penetrative runs. I agree with Sjor that they have to be seen as an allround CM duo. He has given Redondo the primary playmaker role, but I think situationally they would switch roles quite naturally, when Rijkaard sees an opportunity to drive.

The central connection between midfield and attack probably still wouldn't be quite as good as in Himann's team, where Pele (aided by Seeler) will establish a dominant presence in AM areas. Such a presence is lacking for Sjor, but since the wingers-forwards connection is simply brilliant, there are other avenues to go.

(The more I write, the more I think I should have gone for a draw.)

 

[Jim Beam]

My picture of both players very much includes playmaking ability and penetrative runs. I agree with Sjor that they have to be seen as an allround CM duo. He has given Redondo the primary playmaker role, but I think situationally they would switch roles quite naturally, when Rijkaard sees an opportunity to drive.

The central connection between midfield and attack probably still wouldn't be quite as good as in Himann's team, where Pele (aided by Seeler) will establish a dominant presence in AM areas. Such a presence is lacking for Sjor, but since the wingers-forwards connection is simply brilliant, there are other avenues to go.

I mean, they are brilliant. Am almost certain am picking the wrong spot to ask question. But I don't know, I see both of them better with control midfielder.

Rijkaard - Xavi
Redondo - Scholes... for example.

Then again, they wouldn't have such a midfield shield, probably the best one put together.

(The more I write, the more I think I should have gone for a draw.)

Same

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Redondo isnt busquets in the sense he is supporting another playmaker, he is there to run/control the game when we have the ball.

Rijkaard can join up as he often did(part of his game that is always ignored for some reason), when Redondo bombs up(heyyyy Berg) he will sit and protect. They are not here for the goals, there are plenty of those in front 4.

 

[harms]

I think that Redondo can be compared to Ancelotti (obviously an upgraded version), who worked pretty well with Rijkaard. The latter was a huge goal threat in big games IIRC, and he’s actually one of the most gifted box-to-box players when it comes to their on-the-ball skills, be it passing, dribbling or shooting, even though we think of him as a defensive midfielder first.

 

[Synco]

Redondo isnt busquets in the sense he is supporting another playmaker, he is there to run/control the game when we have the ball.

Rijkaard can join up as he often did(part of his game that is always ignored for some reason), when Redondo bombs up(heyyyy Berg) he will sit and protect. They are not here for the goals, there are plenty of those in front 4.

No idea about forum discussions here, but he sure had great long passing & a box-to-boxy attitude.

 

[harms]

No idea about forum discussions here, but he sure had great long passing & a box-to-boxy attitude.

He is usually named as the best defensive midfielder ever (which he was), so naturally the perception of him is more focused on his defending, despite the fact that he usually played in a midfield two (at least at his peak for AC Milan) and contributed heavily in both phases of the game.

 

[Jim Beam]

I think that Redondo can be compared to Ancelotti (obviously an upgraded version), who worked pretty well with Rijkaard. The latter was a huge goal threat in big games IIRC, and he’s actually one of the most gifted box-to-box players when it comes to their on-the-ball skills, be it passing, dribbling or shooting, even though we think of him as a defensive midfielder first.

Wasn't Ancelotti more of cultured midfielder, good engine, but stronger with his passing.

Anyway, am probably dead wrong here, they would most likely be great. Redondo was an absolute manace in his prime. Here at 21 (I think) absolutely dominating Barca midfield.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Ha, why would anyone question Redondo Rijkaard. I think it's perfect.

 

[Jim Beam]

Ha, why would anyone question Redondo Rijkaard. I think it's perfect.

Because it went all quiet and I like being controversial.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Because it went all quiet and I like being controversial.

It's Saturday. Get some alcohol into you

 

[harms]

If anything, I have more reservations about Coluna - Robson, although Bryan would probably assume a more defensive role and save the day.

Coluna is such a weird player though, I struggle to categorize him. An offensive playmaker with a huge frame that isn’t really a box-to-box or even that good defensively despite his intimidating appearance.