Robert Lewandowski 2020/21 performances
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
Love the look at the end. "Come on, has nobody seen this?"
Reminds me of this:
Damn, that one is perfect. I've seen some good versions of that, but this one is truly perfect!
This is a good time as any to repost the warmest warm-up ever
(link cuz I'm a newbie)
(link cuz I'm a newbie)
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This reminds me to ask @Sarni about his most favorite agent Kucharski. I read in German media that the police detained him recently after apparently trying to blackmail Lewandowski? You must be quite bemused 
Couldn't happen to a nicer person. I hope he gets everything that's coming his way.This reminds me to ask @Sarni about his most favorite agent Kucharski. I read in German media that the police detained him recently after apparently trying to blackmail Lewandowski? You must be quite bemused
Continuing his more than a goal per game record into this season, still scoring every kind of goal. 55 in 47 last year, 15 in 14 this year. Does anyone think he's close to C. Ronaldo's peak?
I love how he looks around like 'hey did you guys see that?'
Last season was definitely close to Ronaldo's peak. Lets see if he can keep it up this season and maybe next, I mean Ronaldo scored over 50 goals 6 seasons in a row! Although ofcourse he plays more matches than Lewandowski as La Liga has 38 matches per season compared to 34 in the BL, even then Ronaldo's goals per game was at 1.05, last season was the first time Lewandowski averaged more than goal a game in a season.
How many goals this calendar year, btw?
Last season was absolutely comparable to Ronaldo's peak seasons, even in terms of playing style.
The difference is that Ronaldo did it like 5 or 6 years in a row.
Lewandowski now looks on the pace for 2 such mindblowing seasons in a row, so he still has quite a long way to go.
Still the best pure striker of this century alongside Suarez imho. He literally has no weaknesses and his pre-2019 form was already just below the Messi/Ronaldo level.
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Good, good, they didn't screw that one up.
Well deserved. Shame there's no Ballon d'Or as well this year, he would have had it in the bag.
I don't think it's deserved. Lewandowski is the best striker in the world but not the best player. There are at least four players who would've looked much, much better than him if you dropped them in this Bayern team.
World footballer and Ballon D'Or are just glorified golden boots ever since the Messi-Ronaldo rivalry really got going.
World footballer and Ballon D'Or are just glorified golden boots ever since the Messi-Ronaldo rivalry really got going.
To provide my argument with some stats (my new favourite ones, xGC90 and xGBuildUp90):
All regarding 19/20:
I put Thiago in there to highlight the difference in general attacking contribution. I don't really see much ground to have Lewandowski ahead of Neymar, Mbappe or de Bruyne. Thiago and Kimmich also have seemed to be just as valuable as Lewandowski to the team. Messi's stats also look very good given the state his team was in.
All regarding 19/20:
| Player | xGBuildUp90 | xGChain90 |
| Lewandowski | 0.32 | 1.29 |
| Messi | 0.42 | 1.09 |
| Neymar | 0.49 | 1.45 |
| Thiago | 0.86 | 1.00 |
| Kimmich | 0.89 | 0.98 |
| Cristiano Ronaldo | 0.22 | 0.82 |
| Mbappe | 0.36 | 1.74 |
| de Bruyne | 0.61 | 1.21 |
I put Thiago in there to highlight the difference in general attacking contribution. I don't really see much ground to have Lewandowski ahead of Neymar, Mbappe or de Bruyne. Thiago and Kimmich also have seemed to be just as valuable as Lewandowski to the team. Messi's stats also look very good given the state his team was in.
Maybe from a purely numerical point of view it might be close but Ronaldo was a much more complete & exciting player during his peak years. He wasn’t just scoring a high volume of goals, he was also blowing past players on the wing, dribbling menacingly and scoring thunderous long range efforts that I don’t think Lewandowski is capable of. Peak Ronaldo was a more special player while Lewandowski is more machine like in a perfect system.
Current Lewandowski is more comparable to C.Ronaldo of 14/15 when he scored 48 league goals and 61 in all comps. He was ruthlessly efficient that year but lost a noticeable amount of the magic and allure of previous seasons. That version of Ronaldo is probably still slightly ahead of Lewandowski as he managed not just more goals but also assists I believe (18 in all comps). The only difference is that he played in a less dominant team (albeit still a good one) & thus didn’t win the trophies Lewandowski did.
Here’s a video of CR from 2011 (his first 50 goal season).
12 mins of dribbling highlights from just one season. Not comparable to Lewandowski at all.
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By those numbers only Neymar and Mbappe are better, and they play in a league not considered part of the 'Top 4' where they also hold a significant advantage to the rest of the league.
Lewandowski also won more trophies than both, including the big UCL. So yea, even with those stats Lewandowski still deserves it.
If you really wanted this to be a "fair" competition and not a "glorified golden boot event", Messi and Ronaldo themselves would only have half the trophies they actually won, while players like Xavi, Iniesta or even Lahm etc. would've won quite a few individual honors.
Having said this, Lewandowski was the only right choice for 2020. He put up insane numbers, was crucial for Bayern's entire system and most important of all - he played in a team that won everyone there was to win.
Right now he's basically a carbon copy of the 14-18 version of Ronaldo: Not really "magical on the eye", but incredibly ruthless and productive.
xGBuildUp is explained as every possession a player was involved in without keypasses and shots per 90 minutes
If a pass goes from Boateng, to Thiago, then Kimmich, then Müller and Lewy makes a shot with an xG of 0,30 the xGBuildUp of Boateng, Thiago and Kimmich rises 0,30. Müller's xA and Lewy's xG rises with that. How relevant is the xG Build Up for a striker we need up the field to score us goals?
It might be important to value the buildup of a player - if he just produces empty possession or if his passing leads at the end to goals - maybe in parts even for a no. 10 or winger, as you see if he is not just a final third player but adds to starting chances from deeper, too - but for sure not a striker that I need to hold the line.
The xGChain is more interesting as it adds both together - goal contribution, key passes and third/fourth passes, but that is more the stats for e.g. Müller who leads that in the Bundesliga with 1.45 last season - not for Lewy. The xG is important to rate Lewy (you could critisize that he did not overperform it), the xA and the xGChain (as third passes are included) in a decent amount are just a fine addition!
But how does this new love for xGBuildUP and xGChain that you now found out about match together with your love to Kai Havertz?
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I'll give it some more thought later but I have to say I don't agree with your classification of Ronaldo.
Absolutely he was more entertaining in 2011 than 2015, and to me he was more entertaining 2007 than 2011, but I think you're underestimating what he added in return. Ronaldo in 2011 was much less impactful in big games, on the whole. He still had some crucial moments and was rarely a passenger, but Ronaldo post-2015 had a ridiculous number of big-game moments. That's more than just efficiency. It was essential to his teams' successes, which ultimately counts for a lot when assessing individuals in a team sport. Portugal couldn't have won the Euro's without that knack he developed later in his career, IMO, and that's one of his biggest achievements in context.
Ronaldo from 06/07 to 07/08 become more efficient, but wasn't much more impactful in big games. Ronaldo from 06/07 to 16/17, the difference in big games is wild. Many players (not just Messi) struggle to achieve that level of impact on that stage so consistently, so I don't think you can just put that down to numbers on a piece of paper.
I also think Lewandowski is much more than just numbers at the moment. In many ways I think he's more influential in the build-up than Ronaldo was . He doesn't dribble in the same way but his ability to bring others into the game is far superior to Ronaldo's when he has been forced to play in that more advanced position. I also think he's pretty close to Ronaldo in terms of his first touch / control with all parts of his body, which is one of Ronaldo's most exceptional qualities that I think often gets overlooked in favour of his more explosive qualities.
I think similarly but it seems to me like people are overlooking some of Lewandowski's magic in recent times.
It depends on the criterion. Personally I'd give it to the best player regardless of trophies which is why I think the Ballon D'Or is bullshit ever since Cannavaro won it over Ronaldinho. I mean, it is commonly described as a prize to honor the best player, not the best player of the most successful team. But the biggest issue is that the bottom line is changed as they please. I'd be fine with honoring the best player of the most succesful team as long as they stick with it. In that case I'd have loved Robben or Ribery and Xavi or Iniesta winning it.
But truth is, they change the goal posts as they please. If it was about the best player, Messi should've won every single Ballon D'Or since 2009 with the possible exception of 2013. If it was about the best player in the most successful team, Iniesta and Robben should've won one, maybe even Schweinsteiger and Sneijder.
Agreed with one small change: In 2020 Messi wasn't the best player by any means either. He's actually been bang average since the restart in June.
The biggest player of the year farce in the last decade was Sneijder not winning it in 2010. That being said, were it actually given this year Lewandowski would have deserved it.
I think he was still good up until the Bayern match. Before the failed transfer request he was easily the best player on the planet and did stuff only he could do on a regular basis. Afterwards, he's been quite average by his standards, I agree, and some of his games were the worst I've seen from him. Still, he's had some incredible performances too even this season, so average is an exaggeration. It's his finishing that's off currently while is passing is as good as it's ever been and his dribbling is still top 3 in the world.
Anyway, I'd personally give it to Neymar this year. Incredible player.
What about Ribery in 2013? Too ugly to be allowed to win it? It's all just about marketing anyway in the last few years?
https://www.90min.com/posts/6590154...ed-in-favour-of-a-farcical-popularity-contest
Judging an individual based on team success is nonsensical. I don't think somebody who contributes as little as Lewandowski should be deemed the best player in the world. I was of the same opinion when Ronaldo won his last three prizes.
See, I think you're rolling this out the wrong way. You say Lewandowski doesn't need to contribute to chance creation, play making and all this stuff because of his position. I argue that he's played as a striker because he doesn't possess the abilities necessary to do the rest. No coach would play Messi or Neymar as a pure striker like Lewandowski because it would be a waste of their abilities. You want those genius level players to be on the ball in the final third as often as possible so that they can work their magic. It's not so much about the position they inhabit in the formation but the role they're assigned. If Lewandowski would be as good as them, you wouldn't waste him as a striker or at least create mechanisms that see him dropping deep.
And that's my point. What Neymar and Messi do (and the younger Cristiano did) is way more difficult than would Lewandowski is doing. People are so used to comparing Messi and CR7 based on their goal stats to determine who had the better season (what was always just a lazy shortcut) that they now stick with it. Goals are the most obvious way to judge the level of a player but they're also very superficial. I never really agreed with Ronaldo winning those Ballon D'ors during the later stages of his Real Madrid engagement and I don't agree now with Lewandowski being honored since he's quite similar to that iteration of Cristiano. It's like crediting the presenter of a group project for the result alone when there are others who did the heavy lifting.
And that's my point. Staying in the Bayern context, what Lewandowski did in front of the goal was impressive from a technical and also a mental/intelligence perspective. But for me, it wasn't more impressive than what Thiago did (who was easily Bayern's best player in the CL final). The difference being that Thiago has roughly 90+ actions during a game while Lewandowski has around 30 - but Thiago goes more unnoticed because he doesn't appear on the scoring sheet and isn't as present in the highlights. And this is highlighted in stats like xGC or xGBuildUp. I would've found a Ballon D'Or or world footballer for Robben in 2013 much more deserved than I find this one for Lewa.
I don't want to belittle Lewandowski, he might be the best striker of his generation, but he's now compared to a different kind of standard. Not Suarez or Ibrahimovic, but Messi and Neymar. Two players scoring at comparable rates while also being the main creators of their teams. What those two do on a regular basis is far more difficult than Lewandowski's standard of play. Heading aside there's probably no skill Lewandowski is better at than Messi. And if you dropped any of those two into this Bayern team, literally nobody would argue that Lewandowski is the superior player.
Regarding Havertz: I defend him from unfair criticism. I'd do the same for Lewandowski. But Havertz isn't called the best player or even the best talent in the world. If he was I'd be pointing out his weaknesses. I even argued numerous times that he's not a talent of Sancho's caliber in the respective threads. Havertz is a great talent but his ceiling is most likely nowhere near those heights. Sancho on the other hand is and I'd even say his last season was better than Lewandowski's if we're looking at league only.
I wasn’t talking about their level of impact in big games as you could argue Lewandowski wasn’t a renowned big game player until this year. He often flattered to deceive in the latter stages of the CL in previous editions of the competition apart from in one of his earlier campaigns when he had that 4 goal haul against R.Madrid. I was more referring to what both players were/are capable of at the absolute zenith of their playing capacity. For me they aren’t comparable. Ronaldo simply had more weapons in his arsenal and could do more things with the ball. He was as good a goalscorer as Lewandowski is now if not better while simultaneously being a World Class wing player. In his first 2-3 seasons at Madrid he played RW, LW & SS. He could cross, dribble and beat his man with ease in ways Lewandowski simply isn’t capable of. Lewa is obviously a better pure #9 than him in terms of hold up and bringing others into play through that but that’s never really been Ronaldo’s main game although he can do it to some degree.
I just think you're emphasising particular aspects of a players' contribution that is weighted towards a stylistic preference more than his worth to a team, essentially.
On the one hand you say yes Ronaldo is worse at bringing others into play, but that isn't really his game. On the other hand you say Ronaldo is better at dribbling, but don't extend the same principle to Lewandowski - that's not his game. At the same time you upweight the range of things Ronaldo can do, and discount the value of doing those things in particular moments that lead to trophies.
How you assess most of those things is very subjective of course, but you to have the consider the totality of them rather focusing in one some and not others. So I think the way the argument is framed is slightly misleading and can only lead to one conclusion.
In any case, you don't need to convince me what kind of player Ronaldo was. The reason I asked the question was more that I was surprised Lewandowski could even get close to any version of Ronaldo's peak. When I've seen him recently he's been pretty exceptional.
Agreed.
I still don't get why they cancelled it, their official reasoning doesn't sound reasonably well. No "lack of sufficient fair conditions" despite the top best leagues all resume their leagues and just Ligue 1 cancelling theirs. Seriously what happens in that farmers league is not a strong factor as to why people vote the best players. PSG and the other teams continued CL competition later on. It sounds so premature and a huge joke. The least they can do is postpone it for a while and monitor progress in football before immediately putting an end to it.
They didn't cancel their "cancelled plan" is also odd. Maybe pride gets in the way? or/and sponsors had their say?
Alas, what's done is done, I think majority of football fans would agree on Lewa as this year's 2020 unofficial Ballon d'Or, no doubts
and that's enough.This is back to the age-old debate of the striker vs the playmaker. Neither Messi nor Neymar came close to Lewandowski’s goalscoring rate and numbers, so it really isn’t as clear cut as it seems. And we looking at the best player for that particular season, I don’t think it is wrong to look at contribution to team success. Both Neymar and Messi were pretty poor in their respective leagues. Neymar was constantly injured while Messi barely got out of second gear. In the CL, Lewandoski was unquestionably the best player. He was the joint top assister and top goalscorer by a wide margin. He achieved peak performance level consistently throughout the season, its really not that hard to see why he deserves it.
Personally, I think you’d have an even harder time justifying why Neymar deserves to be the best player.
There are no players since he award was created that have contributed more to their respective teams on a per season basis than either of them. The only arguable case would be R9, and that would still be because of his scoring. I think people have gotten too used to how good they are. They've made Neymar, who would have won the majority of ballon d'ors in the 2000's look ordinary, yet you have people bemoaning a lack of flair. They score so many goals, that even the great goals scored are looked at as ordinary.
Yeah, Lewandowski contributes so little, it's a wonder Bayern don't just sell him and replace him with a much cheaper option...surely they're sooooo good at creating chances on a platter they could do it for any good striker....
Just like Cristiano in Madrid, am i right?
PS: great post @tjb agree with every word
Just like Cristiano in Madrid, am i right?
PS: great post @tjb agree with every word
Messi broke the assist record last season and scored 25 goals on top of that. He also had the most successful dribbles per game and came in second in most chances created. I believe nobody who claims he had a poor season actually followed him. It wasn't even poor by his standards. The highlight reels of his last season look more impressive than the career highlights of some world class players - arguably including Lewandowski.
This. I find it mind blowing that we really compare players who are world class goal scorers and play makers with pure goal scorers and come to the conclusion that the goal scorers are the better footballers. I've see a lot of Lewandowski, Neymar and Messi last season and I can't wrap my mind around how people who did the same could think Lewandowski was better. It's so clear to me that bias is the only explanation I can think of. It's almost bizarre how one-sided the result of this vote was.
Come on, you can do better than that.
It’s hard to have a better pure striker year than Lewandowski has, since the start of last season he has scored 73 goals in 64 games for Bayern Munich, insane record. So he has:
1) Amazing goal stats
2) Helped lead team to win everything
3) Very good general play, links up brilliantly and intelligent and good on the ball
It’s hard to imagine a number 9 being much better than he has been, no doubt deserving of any award given to him this year.
1) Amazing goal stats
2) Helped lead team to win everything
3) Very good general play, links up brilliantly and intelligent and good on the ball
It’s hard to imagine a number 9 being much better than he has been, no doubt deserving of any award given to him this year.
i can but this
doesn't deserve better
Messi or indeed Neymar - who i consider the best player in the world - don't get to put up big assists/chances created numbers in a vacuum
@Zehner is just desperately trying to persuade himself that Patrick Schick would score similar numbers for Bayern. When in reality, there are 10-goals-per-season strikers, and there are 30-goals-per-season-strikers. Schick is the first category, Lewandowski the second. Thus, Schick plays for Neverkusen, Lewa for the mighty FC Bayern.