Robert Lewandowski 2020/21 performances

Zehner

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i can but this doesn't deserve better

Messi or indeed Neymar - who i consider the best player in the world - don't get to put up big assists/chances created numbers in a vacuum
He does contribute little, at least by the standard he's compared with.

@Zehner is just desperately trying to persuade himself that Patrick Schick would score similar numbers for Bayern. When in reality, there are 10-goals-per-season strikers, and there are 30-goals-per-season-strikers. Schick is the first category, Lewandowski the second. Thus, Schick plays for Neverkusen, Lewa for the mighty FC Bayern.
I'm undecided what I find more depressing: That you're so insecure (although your club just won the CL) that you interpreted my criticism as provocation or that you actually thought this response was quick-witted. I mean, I didn't intend to provoke you to begin with but even if I did, this is the best comeback you could think of?
 
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giorno

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He does contribute little, at least by the standard he's compared with.
He doesn't, you're convinced football is only about what players do with the ball

But either way, why does that matter? The guy does the single most important thing in the game significantly better than anyone else. Why does it matter how much he contributes to the build up? We're talking about a guy averaging over 1 goal per game here, ffs
 

Zehner

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He doesn't, you're convinced football is only about what players do with the ball

But either way, why does that matter? The guy does the single most important thing in the game significantly better than anyone else. Why does it matter how much he contributes to the build up? We're talking about a guy averaging over 1 goal per game here, ffs
No, I'm not. Off the ball movement is part of the game in every position - as much for a striker as for a midfielder or other players.
 

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hasanejaz88

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See, I think you're rolling this out the wrong way. You say Lewandowski doesn't need to contribute to chance creation, play making and all this stuff because of his position. I argue that he's played as a striker because he doesn't possess the abilities necessary to do the rest. No coach would play Messi or Neymar as a pure striker like Lewandowski because it would be a waste of their abilities. You want those genius level players to be on the ball in the final third as often as possible so that they can work their magic. It's not so much about the position they inhabit in the formation but the role they're assigned. If Lewandowski would be as good as them, you wouldn't waste him as a striker or at least create mechanisms that see him dropping deep.

And that's my point. What Neymar and Messi do (and the younger Cristiano did) is way more difficult than would Lewandowski is doing. People are so used to comparing Messi and CR7 based on their goal stats to determine who had the better season (what was always just a lazy shortcut) that they now stick with it. Goals are the most obvious way to judge the level of a player but they're also very superficial. I never really agreed with Ronaldo winning those Ballon D'ors during the later stages of his Real Madrid engagement and I don't agree now with Lewandowski being honored since he's quite similar to that iteration of Cristiano. It's like crediting the presenter of a group project for the result alone when there are others who did the heavy lifting.

And that's my point. Staying in the Bayern context, what Lewandowski did in front of the goal was impressive from a technical and also a mental/intelligence perspective. But for me, it wasn't more impressive than what Thiago did (who was easily Bayern's best player in the CL final). The difference being that Thiago has roughly 90+ actions during a game while Lewandowski has around 30 - but Thiago goes more unnoticed because he doesn't appear on the scoring sheet and isn't as present in the highlights. And this is highlighted in stats like xGC or xGBuildUp. I would've found a Ballon D'Or or world footballer for Robben in 2013 much more deserved than I find this one for Lewa.

I don't want to belittle Lewandowski, he might be the best striker of his generation, but he's now compared to a different kind of standard. Not Suarez or Ibrahimovic, but Messi and Neymar. Two players scoring at comparable rates while also being the main creators of their teams. What those two do on a regular basis is far more difficult than Lewandowski's standard of play. Heading aside there's probably no skill Lewandowski is better at than Messi. And if you dropped any of those two into this Bayern team, literally nobody would argue that Lewandowski is the superior player.
First off, I can laugh at the statement you've been making that 'put Neymar in this Bayern side and he'll do what Lewandowski does' but then conviently forget that Neymar plays in a team that is more dominant in an inferior league than Bayern is. You want to belittle the argument of Lewandowski being better because he 'plays for a better team' but then don't think of the fact that Neymar's numbers are also inflated because he plays in a more dominant team. For Barcelona he certainly wasn't producing the same numbers as those he does in Ligue 1.

Secondly, the argument of Neymar/Messi being the better player because they are better playmakers would've made sense if either Neymar or Messi had more goals+assists this season than Lewandowski, but they simply did not. Lewandowski had more goals+assists than anyone else in the world this year, and his per game ratio is also better than everyone else. For attacking players, that is the ultimate measuring stick.

xGChain and Buildup are used more to illustrate the impact of players who aren't as involved in the final assist or goal as forwards are, or generally play deeper than fowards, i.e midfielders/playmakers like Thiago, Kimmich, Kroos etc. If there was a situation where Messi or Neymar produced a ton of assists, while also scoring a lot, like Messi did just the year before, then you would have the argument of either being better than Lewandowski. No sane person would have argued Lewandowski was better than Messi last year.

And hilarious that heading is the only think Lewandowski is better at than Messi, I would love to see Messi instantly control a 60 yard long pass with this back to goal and under pressure from the opposition. That is a massive part of Bayern's quick build up and transition offense that would never happen under either Messi or Neymar.
 
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Zehner

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First off, I can laugh at the statement you've been making that 'put Neymar in this Bayern side and he'll do what Lewandowski does' but then conviently forget that Neymar plays in a team that is more dominant in an inferior league than Bayern is. You want to belittle the argument of Lewandowski being better because he 'plays for a better team' but then don't think of the fact that Neymar's numbers are also inflated because he plays in a more dominant team. For Barcelona he certainly wasn't producing the same numbers as those he does in Ligue 1.
I'm happy that I brought some joy to your life but Neymar did produce the same numbers for Barcelona. From 2014 to 2017 he had an xGC of 1.3 and an xGBuildUp 90 of 0.5. He had a goal or assist every 82 minutes. Lewandowski during his time at Bayern is at a goal or assist every 79 minutes. And Neymar played as a wide forward for Barcelona, not as a striker like Lewandowski.

Secondly, the argument of Neymar/Messi being the better player because they are better playmakers would've made sense if either Neymar or Messi had more goals+assists this season than Lewandowski, but they simply did not. Lewandowski had more goals+assists than anyone else in the world this year, and his per game ratio is also better than everyone else. For attacking players, that is the ultimate measuring stick.
That's superficial. Goals and assist aren't really particularly insightful stats. Great through ball by Messi/Neymar - square - goal is quite a regular occurence at PSG/Barca and they do that kind of stuff far more often than Lewandowski.

xGChain and Buildup are used more to illustrate the impact of players who aren't as involved in the final assist or goal as forwards are, i.e midfielders like Thiago, Kimmich, Kroos etc. If there was a situation where Messi or Neymar produced a ton of assists, while also scoring a lot, like Messi did just the year before, then you would have the argument of either being better than Lewandowski. No sane person would have argued Lewandowski was better than Messi last year.
But Messi and Neymar are much more involved in the attacking stages before the assist than Lewandowski is.

And hilarious that heading is the only think Lewandowski is better at than Messi, I would love to see Messi instantly control a 60 yard long pass with this back to goal and under pressure from the opposition. That is a massive part of Bayern's quick build up and transition offense that would never happen under either Messi or Neymar.
Yeah, Lewandowski is stronger than Messi but not by much. Messi has unreal balance and upper body strength. But Messi is a better finisher, a more intelligent player, a better set piece taker and in terms of passing and dribbling he's literally three or four tiers (!) ahead of Lewandowksi. To a lesser extent this also applies to Neymar.

As I said, put Lewandowski in the same team as Neymar or Messi and nobody argues that he's better than them.
 

hasanejaz88

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I'm happy that I brought some joy to your life but Neymar did produce the same numbers for Barcelona. From 2014 to 2017 he had an xGC of 1.3 and an xGBuildUp 90 of 0.5. He had a goal or assist every 82 minutes. Lewandowski during his time at Bayern is at a goal or assist every 79 minutes. And Neymar played as a wide forward for Barcelona, not as a striker like Lewandowski.
Read my statement again, it was comparing Neymar at PSG, who averages a g+a every 67 mins, to Barcelona, where he averaged one every 84 mins. And I don't know why you're comparing this to Lewandowski's Bayern career, we are talking about Lewandowski this year, where he has averaged a goal+assist every 56 mins. No one here is saying that, over their careers, Lewandowski has been a better player than Neymar, that's a separate debate in itself. It's only who is the best now, based on the previous year, and Lewandowski is clearly that.

That's superficial. Goals and assist aren't really particularly insightful stats. Great through ball by Messi/Neymar - square - goal is quite a regular occurence at PSG/Barca and they do that kind of stuff far more often than Lewandowski.
Like I said before, if it were the case that Neymar and Messi had much higher xGChain and Buildup stats than Lewandowski, or if they are at the level of midfielders like Kimmich/Thiago, you might have an argument. Neither are true.

Yeah, Lewandowski is stronger than Messi but not by much. Messi has unreal balance and upper body strength. But Messi is a better finisher, a more intelligent player, a better set piece taker and in terms of passing and dribbling he's literally three or four tiers (!) ahead of Lewandowksi. To a lesser extent this also applies to Neymar.

As I said, put Lewandowski in the same team as Neymar or Messi and nobody argues that he's better than them.
Yes, I'm sure even Hatem Ben Arfa is better at dribbling (atleast 3 tiers as well!!), set pieces and passing than Lewandowski as well. That doesn't mean didly squak as sadly there are other factors to football, such as scoring goals.

It's funny, as I don't even agree with Lewandowski being the best player in the world. It's Manuel Neuer for me, no doubt. He's been absolutely amazing this year, and was better than Lewandowski in the latter stages of the UCL. Neuer 1, Lewandowski 2 and 3 would be between Kimmich, De Bruyne and Ronaldo (given the poor form of Messi this season and Van Dijk's injury meaning he hasn't played alot this season).
 

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I'm happy that I brought some joy to your life but Neymar did produce the same numbers for Barcelona. From 2014 to 2017 he had an xGC of 1.3 and an xGBuildUp 90 of 0.5. He had a goal or assist every 82 minutes. Lewandowski during his time at Bayern is at a goal or assist every 79 minutes. And Neymar played as a wide forward for Barcelona, not as a striker like Lewandowski.



That's superficial. Goals and assist aren't really particularly insightful stats. Great through ball by Messi/Neymar - square - goal is quite a regular occurence at PSG/Barca and they do that kind of stuff far more often than Lewandowski.



But Messi and Neymar are much more involved in the attacking stages before the assist than Lewandowski is.



Yeah, Lewandowski is stronger than Messi but not by much. Messi has unreal balance and upper body strength. But Messi is a better finisher, a more intelligent player, a better set piece taker and in terms of passing and dribbling he's literally three or four tiers (!) ahead of Lewandowksi. To a lesser extent this also applies to Neymar.

As I said, put Lewandowski in the same team as Neymar or Messi and nobody argues that he's better than them.
Was, was a better finisher, he is actually underperforming his xG this season.
 

giorno

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Messi and Neymar are better than Lewandowski in the middle third of the pitch. That's it.

(Neymar is also just as good in the attacking third imho)
 

Zehner

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Read my statement again, it was comparing Neymar at PSG, who averages a g+a every 67 mins, to Barcelona, where he averaged one every 84 mins. And I don't know why you're comparing this to Lewandowski's Bayern career, we are talking about Lewandowski this year, where he has averaged a goal+assist every 56 mins. No one here is saying that, over their careers, Lewandowski has been a better player than Neymar, that's a separate debate in itself. It's only who is the best now, based on the previous year, and Lewandowski is clearly that.



Like I said before, if it were the case that Neymar and Messi had much higher xGChain and Buildup stats than Lewandowski, or if they are at the level of midfielders like Kimmich/Thiago, you might have an argument. Neither are true.



Yes, I'm sure even Hatem Ben Arfa is better at dribbling (atleast 3 tiers as well!!), set pieces and passing than Lewandowski as well. That doesn't mean didly squak as sadly there are other factors to football, such as scoring goals.

It's funny, as I don't even agree with Lewandowski being the best player in the world. It's Manuel Neuer for me, no doubt. He's been absolutely amazing this year, and was better than Lewandowski in the latter stages of the UCL. Neuer 1, Lewandowski 2 and 3 would be between Kimmich, De Bruyne and Ronaldo (given the poor form of Messi this season and Van Dijk's injury meaning he hasn't played alot this season).
Thing is you use goals and assists as the primary metric and Lewandowski as a striker operates much closer to the goal so his good plays are much more likely to result in a goal or assist compared to Messi and Neymar. So scorers are a good metric to quantify Lewandowski's performances but they are an inept metric to quantify the performances of the other two. The fact that their stats in this regard are at least comparable to Lewandowski's indicate how incredible they actually are. I always used to say that Messi could score and assist half as much as he does and he'd still be the best player in the world. So his scoring stats taking a hit doesn't change anything for me. I wonder how much you've actually seen of Messi this year. Even in recent months which were quite obviously his weakest in the last 10 years he casually pulls off stuff that makes Lewandowski look like Mario Mandzukic.

I mean, in kindergarten days the best player was always the one who scored the most goals. I feel every year football discussions are getting more reminiscent of those days.

Was, was a better finisher, he is actually underperforming his xG this season.
True, his finishing is really off this season.
 

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I mean, in kindergarten days the best player was always the one who scored the most goals. I feel every year football discussions are getting more reminiscent of those days.
And where did you get your PhD in Football analysis? :lol:
 

Zehner

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And where did you get your PhD in Football analysis? :lol:
So you don't think the emphasis on goal stats has been getting more prominent in the last 10 years or so?

I'm pretty sure today's fans would have Gerd Müller over Beckenbauer due to the latter having far inferior goal an assist stats.
 

Hansi Fick

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I'm undecided what I find more depressing:
Well, there's studies that show that an abundance of choice engenders depression, one of the more perfidious mechanisms of consumerism.
So I have to apologize to have added to the load at the end of a year that was far too depressing as is.

Go easy on us later will you.
 

hasanejaz88

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So you don't think the emphasis on goal stats has been getting more prominent in the last 10 years or so?

I'm pretty sure today's fans would have Gerd Müller over Beckenbauer due to the latter having far inferior goal an assist stats.
You do realise I just said above that for me Neuer is the best player in the world and therefore better than Lewandowski? Why would you ask me that question then?
 

Zehner

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You do realise I just said above that for me Neuer is the best player in the world and therefore better than Lewandowski? Why would you ask me that question then?
Neuer is a different topic. I don't care too much about that, goal keepers are essentially playing a different sport to on field players. I don't compare them and thus have no opinion on that, if you do that's your decision. But you have Lewandowski ahead of players who are a tier above him in my opinion and you defend that opinion based on his goal and assist stats which is why I'm addressing that point.

You also overemphasize trophies and team success if you ask me but that's also a different topic. The best individuals don't always play in the best teams and the prize we're discussing is described as an honor to the best individual.
 

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What else is Lewandowski supposed to do in his role? If he starts playing like Neymar and picking the ball up deep to dribble, then he probably takes Muller’s place in the team and they need somebody else to do Lewandowski’s job of holding the ball up/finishing. He plays pure striker without peer.

Usually the best player is a playmaker of some sort. But not always and it’s stupid if they always have to be a playmaker. It’s only one part of the game.
 

tjb

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Messi broke the assist record last season and scored 25 goals on top of that. He also had the most successful dribbles per game and came in second in most chances created. I believe nobody who claims he had a poor season actually followed him. It wasn't even poor by his standards. The highlight reels of his last season look more impressive than the career highlights of some world class players - arguably including Lewandowski.



This. I find it mind blowing that we really compare players who are world class goal scorers and play makers with pure goal scorers and come to the conclusion that the goal scorers are the better footballers. I've see a lot of Lewandowski, Neymar and Messi last season and I can't wrap my mind around how people who did the same could think Lewandowski was better. It's so clear to me that bias is the only explanation I can think of. It's almost bizarre how one-sided the result of this vote was.



Come on, you can do better than that.
The truth noone wants to admit, their operating level is on a different planet to the others. imagine scoring 60 goals in a season and becuase someone's team won a world cup/UCL they were robbed while just simply participating at a great level in a system. It's like if the Miama Heat won the NBA finals and people came to the conclusion that Jimmy Butler was the best player in the world this year...makes no sense
 

giorno

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So you don't think the emphasis on goal stats has been getting more prominent in the last 10 years or so?

I'm pretty sure today's fans would have Gerd Müller over Beckenbauer due to the latter having far inferior goal an assist stats.
Gerd Muller was better than Beckenbauer in a few seasons, in fact, and did win a ballon d'or
 

Hansi Fick

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Seeing how entrenched @Zehner is in his position to devalue "pure goalscoring" in face of "world class playmaking", and looking at his username, one can't help but wonder whether there isn't some kind of personal beef at work here in the undercurrent. Did a girl run off with the striker of your team, after he showed off with goals you had served him on a platter?

Anyway, regardless of merit or motivation, claiming that Robert Lewandowski does not "deserve" the Best Player Award in 2020 because of "xGbuildup", and then going on contending about it like it's the Oxford Union, would serve to represent a stellar moment in any football forum poster's career, already for effort and application.
 

Zehner

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What else is Lewandowski supposed to do in his role? If he starts playing like Neymar and picking the ball up deep to dribble, then he probably takes Muller’s place in the team and they need somebody else to do Lewandowski’s job of holding the ball up/finishing. He plays pure striker without peer.

Usually the best player is a playmaker of some sort. But not always and it’s stupid if they always have to be a playmaker. It’s only one part of the game.
Yes, it's only one part of the game. But if there are players which cover more disciplines of said game on a world class level it's a bit silly to suggest that the best player is the one who only covers one because his team won many trophies that season.

The truth noone wants to admit, their operating level is on a different planet to the others. imagine scoring 60 goals in a season and becuase someone's team won a world cup/UCL they were robbed while just simply participating at a great level in a system. It's like if the Miama Heat won the NBA finals and people came to the conclusion that Jimmy Butler was the best player in the world this year...makes no sense
Completely agree. I think in this case it's down to people getting bored by the Messi dominance. It also feels wrong to honor players who didn't win any big prices because this is a team sport. But then don't award individual prizes in a team sport to begin with.

Gerd Muller was better than Beckenbauer in a few seasons, in fact, and did win a ballon d'or
Don't know, that was way before my time. In Germany and I guess also in the whole world, very few people would have Gerd Müller anywhere near Beckenbauer simply because his play making, defending and general technical brilliance was deemed more important than the goals Müller scored. Nowadays we've got players who are even better than Beckenbauer in terms of play making and score as much as the best strikers and we treat the Ballon D'Or like a glorified golden boot.

Seeing how entrenched @Zehner is in his position to devalue "pure goalscoring" in face of "world class playmaking", and looking at his username, one can't help but wonder whether there isn't some kind of personal beef at work here in the undercurrent. Did a girl run off with the striker of your team, after he showed off with goals you had served him on a platter?

Anyway, regardless of merit or motivation, claiming that Robert Lewandowski does not "deserve" the Best Player Award in 2020 because of "xGbuildup", and then going on contending about it like it's the Oxford Union, would serve to represent a stellar moment in any football forum poster's career, already for effort and application.
Seriously? Why don't you at least try contributing something relevant to the discussion? Even if it's not very insightful in the end it can't be worse than these posts. Nothing against sarcastic comments in general but your punchlines are about as creative as a Schalke attack.
 

Hansi Fick

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Seriously? Why don't you at least try contributing something relevant to the discussion? Even if it's not very insightful in the end it can't be worse than these posts. Nothing against sarcastic comments in general but your punchlines are about as creative as a Schalke attack.
Sorry to disappoint you.
Thankfully, Lewandowski didn't disappoint today.
Wait - I shouldn't claim that before checking what his xGchain stat was.
 

Zehner

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Sorry to disappoint you.
Thankfully, Lewandowski didn't disappoint today.
Wait - I shouldn't claim that before checking what his xGchain stat was.
No, did what is expected of a world class striker. Tah took care of the xGC for Bayern
 

Hansinity

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Insane discussion. Crazy man haha.


What a player. Single-handedly carrying Bayern with Neuer.
 

Maciej

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Only one striker has run up 40 goals in a Bundesliga season: Gerd Müller, the diminuitive, stocky Bayern centre-forward, who in 1972 set the league record which stands to this day.

Lewandowski is on 19 goals after 14 games.

 

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Only one striker has run up 40 goals in a Bundesliga season: Gerd Müller, the diminuitive, stocky Bayern centre-forward, who in 1972 set the league record which stands to this day.

Lewandowski is on 19 goals after 14 games.

Also:


:lol:
 

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Look two posts up - we are gameweek 26, 35 minutes to go in Bayern - Stuttgart match, Lewandowski is on 35 league goals at this moment. He's breaking Müller's 40 easily this season. Incredible numbers. If he stays with Bayern few more years he will become the best Bundesliga scorer of all time.
 

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Look two posts up - we are gameweek 26, 35 minutes to go in Bayern - Stuttgart match, Lewandowski is on 35 league goals at this moment. He's breaking Müller's 40 easily this season. Incredible numbers. If he stays with Bayern few more years he will become the best Bundesliga scorer of all time.
The finish for his first goal today was so good. It looked like a poacher‘s goal but it took some effort to get off a hard and well placed shot.
 

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Denied his award last season so decided to say feck it and do it all again. Incredible player.
 

Ladron de redcafe

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Denied his award last season so decided to say feck it and do it all again. Incredible player.
Others might have been dejected at the cancellation of the event that would have seen them win the balón d'or for the first time. He came back even better than he was last season, somehow, some way.

Sensational season so far. And he's about to make Bundesliga history, barring a serious drop in form.
 

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He's gonna slot right in between Messi and Ronaldo's best league numbers (M: 43, 50; R: 46, 48) in my opinion. As for the whole season, he's gonna go for around 60 goals.

Both metrics are beyond world class and into legendary territory for this season. Huge props to him. Looks like a deserved ballon d'or is incoming if everything just follows its natural course.
 

RooneyLegend

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The change of Bayern to playing good old fashioned direct wing based football has him impossible to handle. Still think Bayern would be better if they play him and Gnabry upfront.
 

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If he delivers in the CL then I hope he'll win that Ballon d'Or but knowing how France Football's shity journalists operate I'm afraid he has no chance of winning it unless Poland at least makes a Quarterfinal at the Euro.
 

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He'll get the new record unless he picks up a heavy injury before getting there. Wouldn't put it past him to end the season on 43 goals. One goal per game in the remaining 8 games seems like something he is very capable of right now.
 

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If he delivers in the CL then I hope he'll win that Ballon d'Or but knowing how France Football's shity journalists operate I'm afraid he has no chance of winning it unless Poland at least makes a Quarterfinal at the Euro.
Valid point - how brutally unlucky if someone seriously shines at the Euros too. There was genuinely no reason for them not to give it out last year.... and if he lost it this year should they defend everything because he's Polish and say Mbappe knocks in a few in a France win, pretty unlucky - hell even if Messi shines and leads to Argies to the Copa, it'd be a robbery.
 

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Valid point - how brutally unlucky if someone seriously shines at the Euros too. There was genuinely no reason for them not to give it out last year.... and if he lost it this year should they defend everything because he's Polish and say Mbappe knocks in a few in a France win, pretty unlucky - hell even if Messi shines and leads to Argies to the Copa, it'd be a robbery.
If Mbappe has a good euro and France wins it he'll get the BO just off that+that Barca hat trick, even if PSG goes out to Bayern in the quarter
That system is stupid and unfair but it is what it is

Lewandowski was truly robbed last year yes and their excuse for not giving the BO wasn't valid as no l1 player would have been in course for it ...
 

Acrobat7

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May 13, 2013
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He's gonna slot right in between Messi and Ronaldo's best league numbers (M: 43, 50; R: 46, 48) in my opinion. As for the whole season, he's gonna go for around 60 goals.

Both metrics are beyond world class and into legendary territory for this season. Huge props to him. Looks like a deserved ballon d'or is incoming if everything just follows its natural course.
And please keep in mind that the Bundesliga only has 34 matchdays and not 38. There is a reason Gerd Müller‘s record hasn’t been broken in 50 years.
 

gibers

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Apr 14, 2017
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Absolute monster. Halfway though Kovac's first season he became an absolute monster. His form hasn't dipped for over 2 years.