Stick 10 people in a box and ask them who’s better and 9 out of 10 will say Bergkamp. The other bloke is a scouser.
Roberto Firmino, the most overrated player in the Prem.
- Thread starter RooneyLegend
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Well firstly, he doesn’t. 56 goals and 34 in 175 matches is less per game than Bergkamp’s 87 goals and 94 assists in 315 matches.
Secondly, wobble your fecking head.
Keep bringing the excuses. First it was that Bergkamp was a 10 and therefore created more, when its been proven that Firmino has created just as much, and scored more, then the reason is somehow they league.
For the record. I am NOT saying Firmino is better or comparable to Bergkamp, but when people try to belittle him based on stats then it should only be fair to being stats out for other players considered great to give some perspective.
Firmino has a role at Liverpool where the goalscoring burden is not on him. He has to provide good, and clever, pressing from the front, which he does very well, and be a link up player for Mane and Salah. He's a fantastic player at doing that but that of course undermine his output statistics wise.
That role this season I feel has been diminished with Klopp favoring to attack from his full backs more than the middle now, Firmino is less involved in build up play and that I think is showing in his output this season compared to previously. In previous seaons he has averaged over 25 goals+assists per season (all comps). That's would be a very good output for someone who is a number 10, which is essentially his role at Liverpool. This season though that role has been reduced with Liverpools chance of tactics.
To be fair to Firmino, his best form came when Liverpool played through the lines more and he was the link between midfield and attack. He’s been the biggest loser in the Scouser’s transition to full-on Wimbledon hoofball. Fifty-yard punts over his head for Salah and Mane to run on to, and if it’s not that, it’s forty-yard hoofs into the box from their full-backs.
This happens at least 60-70 times a match, thus making Firmino completely redundant. Unless he’s lucky enough to be on the end of the inevitable pinball in the penalty area from the incessant hoofs and punts, he doesn’t get on the ball. As much as he profited from Klopp’s system in previous years, he’s the biggest victim of their horrid, agricultural hoofball tactics now.
This happens at least 60-70 times a match, thus making Firmino completely redundant. Unless he’s lucky enough to be on the end of the inevitable pinball in the penalty area from the incessant hoofs and punts, he doesn’t get on the ball. As much as he profited from Klopp’s system in previous years, he’s the biggest victim of their horrid, agricultural hoofball tactics now.
Bergkamp was massively overrated and still better than Firmino. I bet Bergkamp never managed a whole season without scoring a goal at home.
Edit: Firmino actually has one game to change that - against Chelsea. Their defence is pretty bad but I'd still lay long odds against him scoring.
Edit: Firmino actually has one game to change that - against Chelsea. Their defence is pretty bad but I'd still lay long odds against him scoring.
If his a number 10 then how come he is in the top 3 for most shots at goal? That’s without being a set piece taker like KDB. His also in the top 3 in the league for big missed chances above other strikers in the league. That doesn’t sound like someone who is less involved in the attack. The criticism is he is very wasteful in and around the box. Liverpool fans wouldn’t be defending him if Salah or Mané went through a drought. Do Liverpool fans believe Salah/Mane wouldn’t be able to score the amount they do without Firmino? Can they be labelled World class if that is the case?
The comparison to Benzema is lazy too because no one would describe Benzema as a false 9.
Transfermarkt says 70 assists and 87 goals.
Poor mans Benzema is probably right
I don't think Mane or Salah would score as much with a more natural striker like Aguero or Kane upfront. Either Mane and Salah output will decrease or the strikers will.
Pep said the same thing during the documentary when talking about Liverpools front three. He talked about how Salah plays as a number 9 with Firmino going to the wing.
If you have a more natural striker who isn't wiling to move across the front three as much, then Salah/Mane won't be able to move into the striker position as often and therefore not be in those goalscoring positions.
If Lingard was signed from some Bundesliga club, you would be defending him too. Luckily he isn't.
It's not like Firmino is not getting chances. He is top 3 in most shots, most shots from inside the penalty box.
These overrated/underrated threads are getting overstated. It's normally about some poster saying something wrong and everyone else commenting about it.
Regarding the first post, I don't know anyone who thinks Firmino is more valuable than Salah or Mane.
Regarding the first post, I don't know anyone who thinks Firmino is more valuable than Salah or Mane.
If that were the case I would also be defending Rudiger, I've actually said against other's opinions previously that he isn't a good defender at all and shouldn't be close to starting for Germany. Not exactly a one-to-one comparison since he was signed from Roma, but he developed at Stuttgart, the point is that if my opinions were solely based on allegiances then I would be defending him too.
Defending Firmino is a case of a player having a poor season after some very good ones, people are ignoring his past contributions. A lot of great players have poor seasons, De Bruyne I think had just 4 goals + assists last season eventhough he played a lot after his injury, Hazard had a season with similarly poor output during the Mourinho season.
I said before as well that I do not think Firmino is at the level of Bergkamp but it should be worth noting that Firmino's record is not very far off Bergkamp's (0.52 ga/game versus 0.57 respectively). Firmino adds a lot to Liverpool's system, which is why Liverpool haven't been urgently out to try and replace him despite his poor output this season.
Is he world class? No. Is he average? No. Is he a really good player? Yes.
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Of course what you said is all true but when people go on and on about how fantastic he is, how he is the one who makes Salah, Mane tick or how he is perfect Klopp player then you have to wonder what is that he is doing that others can't.
I agree he is good player but Liverpool can do so much better than him. You said he is the reason why Salah and Mane scores lot and how if they play with Aguero or Kane, that would drop, I don't agree with that. It's not like playing with Aguero stopped Sterling to stop scoring, same with Dele Alli previously.
Firmino is poor finisher, so his other attributes are way too overrated to cover that up. Aguero and Kane are fantastic 9s, so their other attributes are not highlighted as their strengths like movement, finishing is always the talking point.
It's not really a question of a bad season, it's a question of a season where he has not scored at home for the runaway league champions and he's played almost every game up front. He's not a striker.
His goal record across his career is just better than 1 in 4 which is distinctly average. His assist record is just a bit less good than 1 in 4 which is quite a decent record but is that enough to call him some sort of top forward? Not for me.
Firmino is basically doing what he always has for Liverpool apart from one abnormal season. He’s a 1 in 4 or 5 forward who is pretty good at knitting things together in a specialised role.
who really “overates” him? He is great for their team and thats all that matters. Maybe if Salah/Mane were not there he could score more and stand out more?
For years people said Benzema was shite and needed to be replaced. Ronaldo leaves and all of the sudden Benzema starts to get the numbers.
For years people said Benzema was shite and needed to be replaced. Ronaldo leaves and all of the sudden Benzema starts to get the numbers.
His goal scoring record is a joke. He's getting away with it because he's part of a winning team at the moment but if Liverpool win feck all next season and his numbers haven't improved we'll surely start to hear criticism.
Sterling scores a lot more when playing with Jesus. That’s been my impression, at least.
But that’s the point — he doesn’t ‘knit things’ together. He’s just beside two outrageously good wingers.
I was surprised to hear this the other day. Third in PL shots with 98 (Salah top with 122), joint-fifth with shots on target with 38 (Salah top with 56), while he's third on big chances missed (whatever the hell that means) with 20 (Tammy and Jesus joint-top with 22). Whatever you say about his role in the team, and for me he's been less key but still just fine this year as Liverpool have run away with it, he's not a particularly good finisher and that is not ideal for any advanced player.
It would take lot of time to check the record, Sterling scored around 25 goals in each of last 3 seasons and Aguero played in most of the games.
Also Jesus shouldn't change anything here, he is completely different player from Bobby 'link up' Firmino.
While I won't go to the lengths to say he makes them 'tick', I will still say he does influence their goals/assists output and don't think many strikers would be willing to play the role that he does. Whether other strikers can do what he does, I can think of strikers in the BL who can play that role (Volland, Rashida), but whether they will produce the same goals+assists numbers, or press as well as Firmino does, is another question.
You say Sterling and Delle Ali scored plenty with Aguero and Kane, but remember we're talking about Mane AND Salah, so not just one player scoring a lot alongside the striker. I also wouldn't go on to say he is a poor finisher but rather he's having a poor season. If you compare his xG to goals figures, he was having a positive output for this first three seasons at Liverpool (more goals than expected) but this season has been truly horrendous (he's scored 8 less goals than expected).
He has been poor this season, but that should not take away from his contributions in previous seasons.
He is 6th in expected goals too, under-performing hugely.
5th in shots from six yard box
2nd in shots from penalty box
3rd in total shots
6th in expected goals but 25th in goals scored, outscored by players like Willian, Ayew, Chris Wood and many other players, even Greenwood who started 7 or 8 games.
Good for 12-15 goals a season in a dominant side.
Oh don't forget the no look goals from two yards out too.
Oh don't forget the no look goals from two yards out too.
Any player who is part of attack and regular player influences goals and assists. It's not something only Firmino brings. People highlight that as his goal scoring record is not good.
Agree with work rate though, his work rate is insane.
I’m on to him. My only hope is that nobody else is. Long may he remain in that side. If they swapped him for a Dybala or something, or Havertz perhaps - they’d be better for it.
Bobby is playing the Heskey role!
So Salah and Mané being on the pitch is the reason Firmino is wasting his chances?
People need to stop making excuses. His a very good player, just not at the elite level.
Deary me, Bergkamp's passing and ball retention were on a whole different level to whatever Firmino does. How's this even a debate?
I don't think he's overrated... He's a pretty good forward and is very good as one of those "non scoring /selfless forwards"
I do however think Liverpool should be looking to upgrade on him.
I do however think Liverpool should be looking to upgrade on him.
Football is about number and Tevez is a shit striker for example.
He is having an average season and that is all. But some people in this thread think that Jay Jay Okocha was a footballer so there you go.
He is having an average season and that is all. But some people in this thread think that Jay Jay Okocha was a footballer so there you go.
This post genuinely reads as an Auto Generate postFootball is about number and Tevez is a shit striker for example.
He is having an average season and that is all. But some people in this thread think that Jay Jay Okocha was a footballer so there you go.
What are you trying to say? Not being an arse, just not sure I understand!
This post genuinely reads as an Auto Generate post
What are you trying to say? Not being an arse, just not sure I understand!
will try to explain.You have footballers like Jay Jay Okocha and people like Firmino. One works his ass for a team and the other one is cool if you are 6 years old seeing him first time.
Am having a dig at particular poster here to be perfectly honest.
I have a Liverpool supporting friend who does think he's a bit overrated. He likes him, but thinks he misses too many good chances to be considered a world class player.
He played without them for years. Was he scoring at a high rate back then? Not really
Perhaps, but Liverpool’s wide players would appear to benefit from Firmino’s presence, and you do see the difference if someone like Origi comes in.
Agree with the overall thrust of your point though, he’s a 6.5/10 player elevated by good team mates.
Jay Jay was playing for a mid table side in his peak and I don’t remember people saying he was amongst the best in the world in his position?
You have footballers like Jay Jay Okocha and people like Firmino. One works his ass for a team and the other one is cool if you are 6 years old seeing him first time.
Am having a dig at particular poster here to be perfectly honest.
I don’t see the link. Heskey worked hard for his team too.
Only anarchists slander Jay Jay Okocha
Apart from Liverpool fans, does anyone consider Firmino world class? I don't think enough people do to consider him overrated. No one puts him in the same caliber of the Aguero, Kane, Lewandowski strikers, and there are withdrawn strikers like Benzema who do a better job than Firmino.
He's having a poor season individually, but in the past he's shown the ability to be that link man, and still contribute with a decent amount of goals, and press hard from the front. So at his best he's indispensable for Liverpool. That's not overrating him I think.
How many strikers in the PL are better than him, apart from Kane and Aguero?
Apart from Liverpool fans, does anyone consider Firmino world class? I don't think enough people do to consider him overrated. No one puts him in the same caliber of the Aguero, Kane, Lewandowski strikers, and there are withdrawn strikers like Benzema who do a better job than Firmino.
He's having a poor season individually, but in the past he's shown the ability to be that link man, and still contribute with a decent amount of goals, and press hard from the front. So at his best he's indispensable for Liverpool. That's not overrating him I think.
How many strikers in the PL are better than him, apart from Kane and Aguero?