Yes Mane is their best player by a long way
Roberto Firmino, the most overrated player in the Prem.
- Thread starter RooneyLegend
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Where did Tevez fit in? Firmino is very similar to him in playing style.
Dear me!
Disagree, vision, passing, technique is all right up there. He's a better version of Tevez. He's probably one of those players that the more you watch, the more you appreciate but if you just concentrate on assist/goal stats you shrug and go "nothing special". When the reality is if you ask Scousers the majority gush about him and there's a reason for it.
I mean how highly is he rated? From what I see he's just referred to as an integral piece of the best team in the league which is a fact.
He's not compared to the best strikers like Aguero and Kane or AM's like KDB and Bruno. However he's an extremely good player who can do everything on the pitch. Rated fairly IMO.
He's not compared to the best strikers like Aguero and Kane or AM's like KDB and Bruno. However he's an extremely good player who can do everything on the pitch. Rated fairly IMO.
Martial applies his talent just fine and certainly plays better than Firmino more often than you realise. The scary thing is that he's already playing at a comparative level to him, yet he can and most likely will, improve further in the coming years. Surrounded by players such as Rashford, Fernandes, Pogba and Greenwood, plus any prospective signings. Firmino however, is already playing at his peak and in a unit that is at their peak.
This sums it up quite well.
He will never be a clinical goalscorer such as Kane, Aguero and Lewandowski but he is the perfect player for Klopp and Liverpool. Although he tends to play through the centre he is more like an attacking midfielder than a striker. Mane and Salah are effectively the strikers in this team because they both have the pace to get past defenders than Firmino doesn't have.
Before Liverpool signed Van Dijk they would have to try and outscore teams, but now they can defend well enough that they don't need to score 4 or 5 goals to win games.
The flaw here is Fergie didn't sign tevez in the end..
What is Martial better at than Firmino? Martial is quicker but that's all I can think of? Unless you are comparing them at the same age as Firmino is four years older?
Martial has the potential to overtake Firmino, but he's not as good a player at the moment.
Firmino is better at nothing, except being in a better team. 1 v 1, Martial is better for me. And I don’t think I’m a biased fan, if I think an opposition player is better than one of mine I’ll certainly say so.
Martial is quicker, yeah. In my opinion he's also a better dribbler and finisher than Firmino. Firmino has him beat in terms of work rate and aggression, I'd say. Although there have been signs recently that Martial is improving that aspect of his game.
There's also the classic case of (rightly or wrongly) viewing players more fondly if they are part of a team that is successful. I'm not saying that Firmino doesn't contribute to that success, but he's been fortunate to be a part of a thriving environment. Tactically for instance, Firmino will have enjoyed the type of continuity that Martial perhaps is only now just benefiting from. I do feel that Martial will get the appreciation he deserves over the coming years though as Ole appears to be laying the foundations for future success.
I've just seen that Rozay has basically just said all of this already.
No he isn't. Van Dijk is.
Alisson, Mane and Salah are on the tier below. It's hard to rate Salah though, how far back does one look? Mane is hotter at the moment, but I wouldn't go as far as to say he's "better" than Salah yet.
He’s been utter gash for moths now (pre-lockdown) but annoyingly popped up with some important (sometimes late) goals to keep their momentum going just when it looked like their often-garbage football was going to cost them.
People arguing that he’s the most important member of their triumvirate are talking complete bunkum, IMO. Look at it this way: transplant Salah, Mane or Firmino into every other side in the league and I think Firmino would fare worst. Mane and Salah would flourish and impress in any other team and system in the league whereas I think Firmino profits from the space he’s afforded by opponent defences being preoccupied with the more dangerous Mane and Salah, and the system that Klopp employs.
Would he be as successful for United or Chelsea, for example? I highly doubt it yet Mane and Salah would thrive in any circumstance you wish to insert them into.
People arguing that he’s the most important member of their triumvirate are talking complete bunkum, IMO. Look at it this way: transplant Salah, Mane or Firmino into every other side in the league and I think Firmino would fare worst. Mane and Salah would flourish and impress in any other team and system in the league whereas I think Firmino profits from the space he’s afforded by opponent defences being preoccupied with the more dangerous Mane and Salah, and the system that Klopp employs.
Would he be as successful for United or Chelsea, for example? I highly doubt it yet Mane and Salah would thrive in any circumstance you wish to insert them into.
He’s their third top scorer.
With all of his goals coming away from home.
What more do you want from him?
Comparative level?! The fella is playing for the best team in the league, has won a Champions League and is one of the first names on their team sheet.
Martial is dynamite but he struggles for form month on month and hasn’t even held down a position in a side that plays Europa League football and scraps for 4th-7th in the league.
Well of course he is, he’s their third best forward, and they play no offensive midfielder.
So you're going to re write history to try and prove a point?
Well ‘Bobby No Goals’ is a bit daft then isn’t it.
In this age of over-complicated analysis, Bobby No Goals lack of goals is almost being spun as some sort of positive. The fact that he scores less goals than Mané and Salah is causing people to ‘look deeper’ and come up with some new purpose for him or exaggerating anything else he adds.
Put it this way, his lack of goals in comparison to the others is not by choice, it is not by design, it is not by ‘style of play.‘ He doesn’t score fewer goals because he ‘plays a different role’. Nobody in the league misses more chances than him. He scored less than them because he is a lot less good than them, if he were actually that good, he’ll score more of the several chances he misses, which I’m sure Klopp would prefer he did. That’s the plan, for him to be taking these chances. Liverpool have about 3 working forwards and he’s still managed to be dropped a few times in the last two years.
This isn’t a million miles away from the analysts building a case for Olivier Giroud being ‘integral’ to France. Him not scoring goals was not by design either. It was down to rubbishness. The plan was for him to actually score some goals.
Put it this way, his lack of goals in comparison to the others is not by choice, it is not by design, it is not by ‘style of play.‘ He doesn’t score fewer goals because he ‘plays a different role’. Nobody in the league misses more chances than him. He scored less than them because he is a lot less good than them, if he were actually that good, he’ll score more of the several chances he misses, which I’m sure Klopp would prefer he did. That’s the plan, for him to be taking these chances. Liverpool have about 3 working forwards and he’s still managed to be dropped a few times in the last two years.
This isn’t a million miles away from the analysts building a case for Olivier Giroud being ‘integral’ to France. Him not scoring goals was not by design either. It was down to rubbishness. The plan was for him to actually score some goals.
Re-write history? United didn't take the option on Tevez. That's a fact.
It’s like because of the fact that he’s not particularly good at things a striker should be good at, people resort to these intangibles of how “important” he is at other things. Which, isn’t particularly true.
@Rozay ‘s post earlier in the thread about how the narrative would be absolutely dropped on its head if he played a side who weren’t top of the league, and @kaiser1 ’s point about how if his wingers were actual wingers like Hazard or Willian and not outrageous goal freaks like Salah or Mane are spot on.
@Rozay ‘s post earlier in the thread about how the narrative would be absolutely dropped on its head if he played a side who weren’t top of the league, and @kaiser1 ’s point about how if his wingers were actual wingers like Hazard or Willian and not outrageous goal freaks like Salah or Mane are spot on.
Could there be a case made for,in a similar vain to Benzema, that Firmino has sacrificed far too much of his game for the team or for other individuals to shine ?
Nope. He’d ‘shine’ more if he scored more goals, and he’d score more goals if he didn’t miss more big chances than anyone else.
I chuckle every time. And regarding Giroud he had a subpar world cup but he does score goals for France, so it's not a good example at all.
To be fair, what a player should be good at partly depends on the system they play in.
And intangibles are a thing, it's why Muller gives many fans aneurysms. Elite teams with non conventional systems will always have space for these players.
Does anyone outside of Liverpool actually rate him?
He’s not in the top 10 strikers in the PL, and as many have said Salah and Mane are far superior players.
hes not a bad player obviously, but he’s not top quality and I would doubt any top European club would want him as their starting striker. He works well for Liverpool and their system.
He’s not in the top 10 strikers in the PL, and as many have said Salah and Mane are far superior players.
hes not a bad player obviously, but he’s not top quality and I would doubt any top European club would want him as their starting striker. He works well for Liverpool and their system.
And I agree regarding Giroud, it is kind of my point. He has a very good record for France. That’s why he has been picked, he’s supposed to score goals for them. And if he had scored a few at the World Cup, it would not have been seen as some sort of bonus. He was just not good enough. Yet loads of people were coming out with the ‘if you can’t see why he’s so crucial to the team maybe you don’t get football’ stuff after the World Cup. No, he was more crucial to the team when he was scoring shot loads of goals for them, as he has done many times.
That's where I disagree. You can say that he has been subpar due to his lack of goals but you can also say that he is and has been crucial due to the rest of his game, in the case of Giroud it's worth remembering that in his career for France he has generally been very good for France because he scored goals, was a key player in defending set pieces and in the build up.
And I agree regarding Giroud, it is kind of my point. He has a very good record for France. That’s why he has been picked, he’s supposed to score goals for them. And if he had scored a few at the World Cup, it would not have been seen as some sort of bonus. He was just not good enough. Yet loads of people were coming out with the ‘if you can’t see why he’s so crucial to the team maybe you don’t get football’ stuff after the World Cup. No, he was more crucial to the team when he was scoring shot loads of goals for them, as he has done many times.
He isn't held to the same standards as other strikers that's for sure. Being a playmaking striker doesn't excuse his poor numbers like some would have you believe.
I've never seen Madrid fans being satisfied with Benzema when he had goals drought and he's even better than Firmino at what Firmino does best.
I've never seen Madrid fans being satisfied with Benzema when he had goals drought and he's even better than Firmino at what Firmino does best.
He’s perfect for their system
I love this post.
So long as Liverpool win titles and matches, I honestly think Firmino will become better and better to some the less goals he scores. It’s actually working well for him. If he knocked goals on the head altogether and just scored zero, it will probably be even easier for people to basically say that he isn’t in the team to do so, and once they conclude that he isn’t in the team to score goals - given that it’s a winning team, you then have to start validating why you think he IS in the team. From there on, he plays a back- heel - ‘there, there it is. You simple fans probably won’t see it, but I’ve seen it’. It’s nonsense.
In the Forum down the street there is another ‘is Martial good enough?’ thread going on, and I’ve refrained from opening it for a couple of weeks, but largely, I doubt anyone is advocating we replace him with a striker who will get us 12 goals. Even those who want him replaced. I’m more than 90% certain that the exact same thread would exist on Firmino if we had him instead of Martial. Maybe not if we had Mbappé and Mané either side of him, but who is either side of him is nothing to do with him. That would be because Mbappé and Mané, not Firmino.
Despite all of his apparent creativity, Mané and Salah still have to feed themselves 8 times out of 10 anyway.
In the Forum down the street there is another ‘is Martial good enough?’ thread going on, and I’ve refrained from opening it for a couple of weeks, but largely, I doubt anyone is advocating we replace him with a striker who will get us 12 goals. Even those who want him replaced. I’m more than 90% certain that the exact same thread would exist on Firmino if we had him instead of Martial. Maybe not if we had Mbappé and Mané either side of him, but who is either side of him is nothing to do with him. That would be because Mbappé and Mané, not Firmino.
Despite all of his apparent creativity, Mané and Salah still have to feed themselves 8 times out of 10 anyway.
Why would he be held to the same standards in this Liverpool team?
‘Useful’, perhaps, but not ‘crucial’, in my opinion. I’ve recently watched some of the World Cup games again. He barely touched the ball, he wasn’t exactly laying chances on a plate for his teammates throughout the game - most of the time they were playing around him. He did, of course, lay on some chances - but again, I see that more an example of ‘useful’ than ‘crucial’. I mean, if you’re going to stand there and not score at least do some! Same for defending set pieces. He is useful, but France have plenty of others, I wouldn’t say crucial. They play 4 centre halves in defence for a start, and have Pogba in front of them. All 6ft plus.
No crucial because when we play without him even with a different set up, we are a lot weaker. Giroud is crucial to the version of France that actually win games.
I wouldn’t sign him for us but he’s a very important player in the best team in the country right now. He’s not overrated he’s just not a striker in the true sense. System players that sacrifice their own numbers to let the dangerous players thrive are very important to any good team. I’d say he’s technically a very good player who plays a vital role in a top team.
He’s doing exactly what Liverpool need of him in fairness. Take him out of there and put him in a team that plays with a traditional 9 and he would probably get a fair bit of criticism.
It’s interesting, because Klopp always had a 10 at Dortmund, behind a more traditional 9 (Lewandowski). I don’t know whether Klopp has adapted to the players Liverpool have, or he signed players for the system he wanted.
It’s interesting, because Klopp always had a 10 at Dortmund, behind a more traditional 9 (Lewandowski). I don’t know whether Klopp has adapted to the players Liverpool have, or he signed players for the system he wanted.
Reading this thread it sounds like people underrate him a lot here. I guess anti Liverpool bias shine through. Martial and Jiminez are clearly not better.