His no look tap ins from 6 inches out make me wanna smash his face in.
Roberto Firmino, the most overrated player in the Prem.
- Thread starter RooneyLegend
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
Firmino is probably playing at the level Klopp hoped and expected he would when he bought him. It is Mané and Salah who have been exceeding expectations I suspect.
If all had played well, to a level reasonably expected of them - it is undoubtedly Firmino who would be seen as not good enough I think. The others would be 15-18 goal wingers, and Liverpool would be third at best, and people would not say that they need to ship out their 18 goal wingers to improve. It’s the 12 goal striker who would be the obvious target. The other two who have exceeded expectations, massively, are making Bobby look good.
Has there been any top team that played with three out and out forwards who played beyond the last man? Surely one has to come deep?
Don't Liverpool play a sort of inverted 433? Most of the time I watch, bothAne and Salad are closer to.goal that Firmino. Even though they are better players, there are tactical reasons they score more goals.
Don't Liverpool play a sort of inverted 433? Most of the time I watch, bothAne and Salad are closer to.goal that Firmino. Even though they are better players, there are tactical reasons they score more goals.
Last edited:
Can't help but cringe at the level of football understanding on display. Firmino is fairly rated, after being seriously underrated for years... He's incredible.
Salah is the one that's overrated to hell and back. He's an absolute fraud.
Salah is the one that's overrated to hell and back. He's an absolute fraud.
What if Firmino just wasn’t so wasteful, and as a result, he too scored 30 goals? How will that be explained ‘tactically’?
As I said, the less goals he scores, the more of a positive it is becoming!
Also, Mané and especially Salah have to do way too much work themselves for the majority of their goals, so I think the system thing is overplayed. A large portion of their goals they have to make for themselves from nothing.
Klopp didn't buy him.
Rodgers then. He’s playing to a level reasonably expected when he was signed.
Is Firmino really as wasteful as you make him seem to be?
Yes, the guy who broke the PL goalscoring record is a fraud.
In fairness he's perfect for their team.
You can't over rate that imo
You can't over rate that imo
He has to be in the top 10 surely? Who would you have ahead of him?
Let's am a scouting watching Liverpool looking to bring a player to a hypothetical bigger club and am looking at Firmino how would i judge him by a host a criteria
Position and versatility: Firmino position is always in the space in between the defence and midfield so he is suited to playing the CAM role,False nine or LAM since he is right footed
Technical skills: good passer and dribbler,decent goal return and also fairly press resistant but slightly behind other players that like to play in between the lines like a Debruyne in terms of vision and execution of passes and definitely nowhere near Messi in terms of goal scoring
Athleticism and work rate: you would find it difficult to find a footballer who plays in this area of the pitch with superior athletism and work rate(no point going any further)
Mentality,Leadership and Work rate: Top Top footballer when you consider how he plays for the team,he may not be his team captain cause liverpool has Van dijk and other guys like Milner et al,but this guy is the leader of their pressing game which is very fundamental in Klopp style
Conclusion: He is a bit short of those other worldly ability that makes a player world class,but he makes up for it with his work rate,determination and athletism(those comparing him with Aguero and Kane when he obviously play a deeper role)
Position and versatility: Firmino position is always in the space in between the defence and midfield so he is suited to playing the CAM role,False nine or LAM since he is right footed
Technical skills: good passer and dribbler,decent goal return and also fairly press resistant but slightly behind other players that like to play in between the lines like a Debruyne in terms of vision and execution of passes and definitely nowhere near Messi in terms of goal scoring
Athleticism and work rate: you would find it difficult to find a footballer who plays in this area of the pitch with superior athletism and work rate(no point going any further)
Mentality,Leadership and Work rate: Top Top footballer when you consider how he plays for the team,he may not be his team captain cause liverpool has Van dijk and other guys like Milner et al,but this guy is the leader of their pressing game which is very fundamental in Klopp style
Conclusion: He is a bit short of those other worldly ability that makes a player world class,but he makes up for it with his work rate,determination and athletism(those comparing him with Aguero and Kane when he obviously play a deeper role)
Irony abounds in this post.
It depends on if you start to class inside forwards like Mane, Rashford, Salah, and Sterling as strikers. If you do he surely drops down the list.
There are some pretty bitter people on here, as well as some pretty one-eyed ones!
I wasnt because they play different roles, but if you did yea he would drop down.
I’m not generally one of these Opta fans, however, I believe statistically he misses the most big chances in the PL.
Him not scoring loads of goals is not part of Klopp’s cunning plan. It’s down to his own failing. And Salah and Mané scoring a lot of goals isn’t down to them constantly being fed with very presentable chances either. It’s down to their brilliance, largely making a lot of those goals for themselves.
Well that's a totally different debate. You used stats to try & prove a point, I simply replied in kind seeing as Bergkamp played a similar sort of role & is considered - quite rightly - as one of the best ever PL players. If you actually look at both players goals per game ratio you'll find there's not much in it. So considering the Dutchman played a slightly more advanced role than Bobby, who's more of an attacking midfielder, his goalscoring record doesn't exactly shout 'superior'. Firmino is a perfect example of the modern-day footballer playing at the highest level. LFC are where they are because of him, not in spite of him. Our players being overrated on a Manchester United forum is to be expected. But opinions & reality are never really good bedfellows on here when it comes to discussing the team that won the Champions League last year & look set to win their first league title in 30 years with a huge points advantage.
I agree. I think having a goal machine on one side and currently one of the best wingers in world football on the other covers his flaws, if either of those two were to leave a more prolific striker than Firmino would probably be needed to make up for them. He does his job well within their system, but their system just happens to be bless with two players exceding all expectations.
There is a reason that Bergkamp is considered as World Class and Firmino is not and it comes down to their overall gameset. I don't think Firmino is poor/average by any stretch but the point I was trying to make with his goal tally is that he clearly is capable of scoring more and since his overall game is great but not at the very top, more goals can help his 'cause' so to speak.
Hes not a stats man for sure but he is integral to the way they play. He's a very clever player but people who only look at stats will clearly not rate him.
United fans (including me) regard Ole as a club legend and yet he could barely get in the side most seasons.
Firmino has roughly the same goal output. But he’s somehow massively overrated and gets called Bobby No Goals? Abject stupidity.
People will chirp back in with daftness, but it’s clear as day that Klopp sets up Liverpool with Firmino as a key player. Their attacking 5 of Robertson, Salah, Firmino, Mane, and TAA is ridiculously effective.
It would not be better with van Persie, Ibra or Vardy in place of him. His ‘replacement’ would almost certainly score more goals, but would require a complete change of tactical approach.
He’s great. No he’s not a number 9, or number 10. But he is really great in that side.
Firmino has roughly the same goal output. But he’s somehow massively overrated and gets called Bobby No Goals? Abject stupidity.
People will chirp back in with daftness, but it’s clear as day that Klopp sets up Liverpool with Firmino as a key player. Their attacking 5 of Robertson, Salah, Firmino, Mane, and TAA is ridiculously effective.
It would not be better with van Persie, Ibra or Vardy in place of him. His ‘replacement’ would almost certainly score more goals, but would require a complete change of tactical approach.
He’s great. No he’s not a number 9, or number 10. But he is really great in that side.
Regarding Ole as a club legend and as a top player are two very different things. I couldn’t care less if the Scouse want to refer to Bobby as a legend. My argument is simply that he’s not that good.
And Ole played considerably less football than him too, so if they have a similar goal record, that doesn’t say much in his favour.
Yeah you’re right. If everything that’s actually happening, for real... wasn’t... then yes, other things might be true.
As it is, he plays for a team that’s romping the league, was runners up last year and won the Champions League.
Nice attempt.
In both scenarios I have proposed, the one thing that happens in both of them is how Roberto Firmino is playing. The rest is the interpretation of such form based on the different fortunes of the team.
Yes, he plays for a team that is the best in the league, yet scores no goals for a year at home. That is still a fact. The only reason nobody would care about that is because the team is winning. You can’t possibly ignore a forward with such a record in a team that is not. It’s common sense, and a scenario based analysis to isolate the specific contribution of Firmino.
Not every player that plays for Liverpool is a top player by default.
That's not necessarily a negative. Coutinho was a key player for them and when he left, they changed approach for the better. Lallana was once a key part of Klopp's pressing tactic, he got injured and they changed it up for the better. When Ox was in form he was a key midfield player for them but once he got injured they changed approach, again being no worse off.
Klopp has proven to be flexible, at least more so than most thought, and is most likely carrying Firmino as opposed to the other way around. No doubt should Firmino leave he'll simply change approach again and carry on. The ones I think will have a bigger impact are the wingers and maybe Van Dijk.
Tevez was better than him at what he does 12 years ago in the PL. As an individual, Firmino also can't look half as good unless he's playing with explosive wide players, because their ability to not only score goals, but to score great goals often come via a run of play involving Firmino.
Go back to 07/08, Tevez was exactly the same with Rooney and Ronaldo but IMO, better.
Unlike Tevez, I don't think you can put him in any other team and get the same level of success (as much as it hurt to see Tevez go on and win trophies with City and Mancini)- and by all accounts if Liverpool want to win a treble and mark themselves as an elite force, Firmino will be one of the casualties because of his proven unreliability in front of goal in crucial games (Atletico is a clear example). They need a true 3-pronged attack and not 2 great wide-men and a side show.
Go back to 07/08, Tevez was exactly the same with Rooney and Ronaldo but IMO, better.
Unlike Tevez, I don't think you can put him in any other team and get the same level of success (as much as it hurt to see Tevez go on and win trophies with City and Mancini)- and by all accounts if Liverpool want to win a treble and mark themselves as an elite force, Firmino will be one of the casualties because of his proven unreliability in front of goal in crucial games (Atletico is a clear example). They need a true 3-pronged attack and not 2 great wide-men and a side show.
Kenny Dalglish - Liverpool's greatest ever player - once went nearly 12 months without scoring a goal. (November 1980 to October 1981)
It can happen to the best. Doesn't make them lesser players. People calling Firmino overrated last season or the season before would have been locked up as clinically insane.
So you'd stand by that comment even if he was doing this sort of stuff for you ?
Course you would.
I agree with everything you said but you are wasting your time presenting a nuanced position on the Caf
Firmino is a world-class forward and you have to be living under a rock to think otherwise.
Eh, I thought Salah was more wasteful in that game (although he was beating his marker/fullback for fun)
Great player for Liverpool. One of the best foreign imports brought to the PL. His defensive style is unique and suits the smart defensive way Liverpool play now that they can manage games. Liverpool have morphed away from the all attack all the time play into a smart winning team and he is a huge part of it with his relentless style of play.
The type of player Sir Alex would have brought into united
Our best teams under Sir Alex have had more conventional strikers leading the front due to our wingers being providers more than they were wide forwards. Maybe if we didn't have Rooney from 06-09, who played that link man role perfectly (while banging in the goals of course)? Although I think that version of Rooney was better than this Firmino.
It wasn’t an attempt. All you countered with is more made up nonsense involving alternate realities rather than this one.
If he doesn’t score any at home, that means they ALL come away from home. To wrap that up as bad news is ridiculous. All players (bar a few token exceptions) score more at home. I think almost all of his goals have been winners too.
The idea that a centre forward must score the most goals in a team is archaic. If you don’t like how that Liverpool front line plays and shares its goals, fine. But it’s clearly working.
You’re right. Setting fire to a tactical system that’s taken years to recruit and train for, may give better results.
Seems a little bit easier to just keep the high performing player and carry on smashing the sh1t out of teams though no?
It is extremely simple. Firmino is not failing to score at Anfield due to tactics, choice or style. He is failing to score because he continually misses the chances presented to him. There is no way that can be dressed up as all part of the plan. He has several opportunities to score goals. He just isn’t taking them. That isn’t made up. The plan, I imagine, is for him to take some of these chances he fails to.
nowhere near one of the top foreign imports. He’s a good player, nothing special, and particularly if we start looking back at the entire PL.
CANT see how he’s the type of forward SAF would have bought, considering I can’t remember a single player he bought like him in 26 years. Tevez was perhaps similar, and I would not consider him to be world class, and he was a much better player than Firminho.
I find liverpool fans amusing, they have a great team at the moment, but it still doesn’t stop them overrating their players.
His value is relative to the benefit he brings to the system. It's a gross oversimplification to determine quality based on some statistic alone. Liverpool benefit tremendously with him playing because his role in the team is vital to their functioning the way they do. Overrated? definitely not.
He’s good but not great, his talents dovetail Mane and Salah perfectly though so hence the praise, it works
People keep saying this. His ‘value to the system’ or the unit and how good he is as a player are two very different things.
Nobody is saying he’s rubbish by the way. But despite his systemic value, he himself is not a top player, just as Park Ji Sung was never a top player, no matter how many thesis are written on his ‘importance’. They are very different. It is possible that over the coming months, our team will shape up in a way that Pogba may not be the best fit for us. A player’s importance to the system and a player’s individual level are very different. I’ve seen John O’Shea and Phil Neville have important roles in central midfield for trophy winning sides (well, tbh I can’t be bothered to go back and see whether we won any trophies in those particular seasons, but given when it was, I’m going to guess that we did). Fabian Delph and Olexandr Zinchenko have had important roles in recent successful City teams.
Liverpool are a great team, and Firmino is part of that. But to me, he isn’t one of their great players. They don’t have up to XI great players, they have about 5, and Bobby isn’t in that group for me.