Ronaldinho: the greatest entertainer...

Sayros

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No one would disagree with that, but that's not what you said... in fact, you were saying the opposite.
Then I didn't explain clearly, from 2005-06, Ronaldinho was dominating the game in a way I had never seen, not necessarily more so than R9 or Messi did, but in a way that felt like it was a commercial where he combined the insane tricks with actually winning big titles. The year 2004, Henry was the better player. Someone tried to claim Ronaldinho was dominating from 03-07, I just didn't agree with that and felt like it was more like he dominated for half of that period.

Which he really did not, as has been pointed out (not mention Messi got injured in September and only missed CL games against minnows).
Neymar's got more goals/assists in less games than Ronaldinho while playing second/third fiddle at times, hardly taking penalties or free kicks (which he's excellent at in both regards). You put Neymar as the dominant ball-playing forward in Barcelona, and it's not even a valid comparison anymore with R10 trailing by some distance.

Neymar's actual achievements are underwhelming once you realise he played in a stacked Barcelona team and PSG which might as well be awarded the league title from day 1 of the season.

Ronaldinho is so much better that it's hilarious that you've people writing paragraphs to convince others that Neymar is anywhere near comparable to him.
It's not really 'people', it's just me as far as I can tell in this thread. I'll stand by it too; there's never been a world that exists where Ronaldinho is 'so much better that it's hilarious', you just haven't seen Neymar enough or just have something against him that stops you from appreciating just how great he is himself, and you wouldn't be the only one. I can accept you prefer or think R10 was better, but you're going over the top in their comparison.

If I'm a manager of a team and I'm here for the long-haul, you give me a choice between Ronaldinho and Neymar, it's Neymar every day and twice on Sundays. 2-3 years of peak football is not going to be more respectable or enticing to me than a guy who consistently performs and puts up better numbers, no matter where he plays, whether the team is tailored around him or not, or what league he's in. I think people over-romanticize the period of dominance of Ronaldinho, and he didn't have Messi and CR7 playing at the peak of their powers when he had his couple of years of dominance.

Neymar never gets objectively analyzed. Ronaldinho rarely does either; tilted the other way.
.........
His image and reputation precede him. He rarely, if ever, gets a fair trial.
Pretty much sums it up from reading this thread.
 

RooneyLegend

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Even Henry doesn't think he was as good as Dinho. Some of these opinions are just strange. Some players are geniuses, some aren't. Henry wasn't, Dinho was.
 

Ishdalar

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Neymar never gets objectively analyzed. Ronaldinho rarely does either; tilted the other way.

I don't see people trying to be comprehensive about either, which is interesting given the nation they're from and how their countrymen have been broken down to minute in the past.

Ronaldinho is a living icon and embodiment of jogo bonito - essentially, his essence is more than football: it is a representation of fantasy taken to an extreme many have not bore witness to in another player. The marrying of incomprehensible brilliance, fun and effortlessness has never been so neatly wrapped in a similar package.

Other players had the technical brilliance and/or the effortlessness, but at the level of best on the planet (however fleeting) Ronaldinho stands alone in relation to having the kind of fun that was tangible and captivating - was he doing that to take the piss or win the game, or both? You're not taken on that kind of journey with any other true all-time great and that's part of the reason he's [Ronaldinho] a law unto himself when these discussions come round.

I feel like Neymar will be objectively judged by generations barely even able to watch a full 90 minutes of football yet. His image and reputation precede him. He rarely, if ever, gets a fair trial.
Ronaldinho had a lot of criticism in his career too, his performances in the 06' World Cup when people were waiting for something like Maradona 86', the leg vs Liverpool after our UCL title, even his performances vs Arsenal in the final or saying that he should've done more in the leg vs Milan, the one he invented an assist out of nothing.

These players always have a bigger test when they're active, and their legend clouds our judgement as time passes, but even with that, Ronaldinho changed a club that was in his worst moment of the last 30 years and made them champions of Europe and Spain vs Los Galacticos and also won a World Cup.

Neymar has won a treble with Barcelona and a bunch of leagues, leagues that his teams would've won anyways, and his biggest title yet comes sharing the load with the best player in the world and the best striker at that moment, maybe we shouldn't ask him to win PSG the Champions, but at least put them in the map with some solid performances and some SF/Final runs, so far he hasn't done that (I know, most of his chances got taken away by injuries). His international career so far doesn't live up to the hype, but that's not his fault, 2014 could've been his tournament until the injury, and in 2018 Courtois got in the way of him possibly making history (he was playing good so far).

Luck takes his part in every player's legacy, but there's one thing that sets Ronaldinho and Neymar apart, 10 things really, the 10 kg that Ronaldinho has on him with both on their prime, it's easier to do what Neymar does when you're almost 10kg below the average weight/height ratio in your sport. Ronaldinho could play like Neymar with all that extra weight, that also made him more effective since it's easier to stop Neymar with physical defending than someone like Dinho, Messi or Ronaldo who, also, has shown the impact that a body transformation has in the playstyle.

Djalminha has been mentioned and he had the same problem, he was nimble and skillful, but he couldn't play physically to save his life, someone like Jesus Navas can be top 100 or 50 in the world when in top form, but if you put 10 or 15 kg on Navas and manage to get the same acceleration, pace and skillset... you probably have a top 10 player there.
 

thepolice123

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Luck takes his part in every player's legacy, but there's one thing that sets Ronaldinho and Neymar apart, 10 things really, the 10 kg that Ronaldinho has on him with both on their prime, it's easier to do what Neymar does when you're almost 10kg below the average weight/height ratio in your sport. Ronaldinho could play like Neymar with all that extra weight, that also made him more effective since it's easier to stop Neymar with physical defending than someone like Dinho, Messi or Ronaldo who, also, has shown the impact that a body transformation has in the playstyle.

Djalminha has been mentioned and he had the same problem, he was nimble and skillful, but he couldn't play physically to save his life, someone like Jesus Navas can be top 100 or 50 in the world when in top form, but if you put 10 or 15 kg on Navas and manage to get the same acceleration, pace and skillset... you probably have a top 10 player there.
Bizarre post. Every top player will have their own set of physical gifts. How they maximise it is what makes them the top player that they are. Neymar has a body which is lankier, however he is also shorter which explains the lower weight. Neymar is an incredibly well-conditioned athletic, I don't think his upper body is stronger than Ronaldinho but he looks faster and more nimble.

Personally, I think strength and physicality is overrated in football. Everything lies in balance and coordination which Neymar is excellent at. Mentality also plays a part. Ronaldinho is very aggressive and intense when he attacks with the ball while Neymar looks for the contact, and prefers to dodge and escape through little gaps. You have players like Mane and Salah who have almost identical measurements but looks incredibly strong on the pitch because of their natural aggression. I've seen them shrug off bigger defenders with ease. Even their hold up play this season looks another level.
 

Fortitude

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Ronaldinho had a lot of criticism in his career too, his performances in the 06' World Cup when people were waiting for something like Maradona 86', the leg vs Liverpool after our UCL title, even his performances vs Arsenal in the final or saying that he should've done more in the leg vs Milan, the one he invented an assist out of nothing.
Ronaldinho ultimately failed to get himself into the most elite of categories amongst players, who from a gifted/talent level, are peers of his. At the time of the '06 World Cup, there was no reason or excuse for Ronaldinho to not carry over his immense form and performance level to the grandest stage of all, and ultimately, he fell short where the aforementioned peers shone and further cemented their legacies - Ronaldinho vs. Maradona could've been a real discussion if the former had made the '06 World Cup his own, for example. There aren't many players in history that can have a vs. Maradona and not be laughed off as even a notion.

This doesn't detract from the essence of the player, though, as what Ronaldinho did do for those two years is always going to have its place in history for those who witnessed it; an entire club and, until(if) surpassed the most flambouyant and joyous player ever seen who actually got to the very top of the world game. These things are a lock for Ronaldinho and I'll be surprised if we see anyone surpass him as the quintessential clown prince of football, as even in the span since his retirement, individualism and expression have nosedived, and if you're not brilliant in the first place and try anything Ronaldinho-esque, you'll be booed off the pitch and/or hooked by your manager.
These players always have a bigger test when they're active, and their legend clouds our judgement as time passes, but even with that, Ronaldinho changed a club that was in his worst moment of the last 30 years and made them champions of Europe and Spain vs Los Galacticos and also won a World Cup.
As stated above, Ronaldinho's legacy is immortalised and can never be taken away from him. I don't think it's his actual legacy in question because it is fact, rather, he's now bigger than life for some because of what he embodies and what he represents. That makes him untouchable and difficult for some to objectively analyse, which, of all players to have played, I think Ronaldinho benefits from the most.
Neymar has won a treble with Barcelona and a bunch of leagues, leagues that his teams would've won anyways, and his biggest title yet comes sharing the load with the best player in the world and the best striker at that moment, maybe we shouldn't ask him to win PSG the Champions, but at least put them in the map with some solid performances and some SF/Final runs, so far he hasn't done that (I know, most of his chances got taken away by injuries). His international career so far doesn't live up to the hype, but that's not his fault, 2014 could've been his tournament until the injury, and in 2018 Courtois got in the way of him possibly making history (he was playing good so far).
I don't think that's fair on Neymar as far as Barcelona are concerned. He was a key contributor and component for one of the greatest frontlines ever seen and played a crucial role in that CL run and treble.

Neymar's legacy would be poles apart from what it is if he hadn't gone to PSG in the first place. Whatever his intention, it hasn't worked out for a myriad of reasons and there's no doubt he's looked down upon (from where he was prior to the move) for going there.

Neymar also didn't have a Ronaldo and Rivaldo in his team and had to carry Brazil far more than Ronaldinho, who, the one World Cup where he was supposed to do so, fell well short.

As I said previously, Neymar is rarely critically and objectively analysed. The cognitive dissonance is clear and he is almost certainly the worst regarded superstar I can recall for reasons other than his ability and output.

Luck takes his part in every player's legacy, but there's one thing that sets Ronaldinho and Neymar apart, 10 things really, the 10 kg that Ronaldinho has on him with both on their prime, it's easier to do what Neymar does when you're almost 10kg below the average weight/height ratio in your sport. Ronaldinho could play like Neymar with all that extra weight, that also made him more effective since it's easier to stop Neymar with physical defending than someone like Dinho, Messi or Ronaldo who, also, has shown the impact that a body transformation has in the playstyle.

Djalminha has been mentioned and he had the same problem, he was nimble and skillful, but he couldn't play physically to save his life, someone like Jesus Navas can be top 100 or 50 in the world when in top form, but if you put 10 or 15 kg on Navas and manage to get the same acceleration, pace and skillset... you probably have a top 10 player there.
I see what you're getting at, but the question for me is whether Neymar would have gotten all the same injuries as it is those that have really curtailed him. His whole game is predicated on his nimbleness and elusiveness. If he were heavier, he wouldn't have the same style nor be able to do the same things. Impact absorption and perhaps tolerance to physical buffeting may or may not improve, but who is to say? I guess, at heavier weights, he wouldn't go flying at the slightest touch at pace and injuries like he endured at the World Cup mightn't have materialised, but it may also mean he'd just get nailed even harder, resultant in the same outcomes.

Luck, as you say, plays a vital role in the destiny of these kind of players, and I think it's that, over more mass etc. that Neymar has been bereft of. The guy plays the same way all season long, perfectly fine and well, racking up numbers and performances, getting fouled incessently, but come latter stage of Cups, and the same hits he's received all season suddenly have him out for the rest of the season. Excusing the pun, he can't catch a break.
 

DWelbz19

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Barcelona have pretty much been a non-entity in Europe ever since Neymar left.
 

Righteous Steps

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Ronaldinho ultimately failed to get himself into the most elite of categories amongst players, who from a gifted/talent level, are peers of his. At the time of the '06 World Cup, there was no reason or excuse for Ronaldinho to not carry over his immense form and performance level to the grandest stage of all, and ultimately, he fell short where the aforementioned peers shone and further cemented their legacies - Ronaldinho vs. Maradona could've been a real discussion if the former had made the '06 World Cup his own, for example. There aren't many players in history that can have a vs. Maradona and not be laughed off as even a notion.

This doesn't detract from the essence of the player, though, as what Ronaldinho did do for those two years is always going to have its place in history for those who witnessed it; an entire club and, until(if) surpassed the most flambouyant and joyous player ever seen who actually got to the very top of the world game. These things are a lock for Ronaldinho and I'll be surprised if we see anyone surpass him as the quintessential clown prince of football, as even in the span since his retirement, individualism and expression have nosedived, and if you're not brilliant in the first place and try anything Ronaldinho-esque, you'll be booed off the pitch and/or hooked by your manager.
As stated above, Ronaldinho's legacy is immortalised and can never be taken away from him. I don't think it's his actual legacy in question because it is fact, rather, he's now bigger than life for some because of what he embodies and what he represents. That makes him untouchable and difficult for some to objectively analyse, which, of all players to have played, I think Ronaldinho benefits from the most.

I don't think that's fair on Neymar as far as Barcelona are concerned. He was a key contributor and component for one of the greatest frontlines ever seen and played a crucial role in that CL run and treble.

Neymar's legacy would be poles apart from what it is if he hadn't gone to PSG in the first place. Whatever his intention, it hasn't worked out for a myriad of reasons and there's no doubt he's looked down upon (from where he was prior to the move) for going there.

Neymar also didn't have a Ronaldo and Rivaldo in his team and had to carry Brazil far more than Ronaldinho, who, the one World Cup where he was supposed to do so, fell well short.

As I said previously, Neymar is rarely critically and objectively analysed. The cognitive dissonance is clear and he is almost certainly the worst regarded superstar I can recall for reasons other than his ability and output.


I see what you're getting at, but the question for me is whether Neymar would have gotten all the same injuries as it is those that have really curtailed him. His whole game is predicated on his nimbleness and elusiveness. If he were heavier, he wouldn't have the same style nor be able to do the same things. Impact absorption and perhaps tolerance to physical buffeting may or may not improve, but who is to say? I guess, at heavier weights, he wouldn't go flying at the slightest touch at pace and injuries like he endured at the World Cup mightn't have materialised, but it may also mean he'd just get nailed even harder, resultant in the same outcomes.

Luck, as you say, plays a vital role in the destiny of these kind of players, and I think it's that, over more mass etc. that Neymar has been bereft of. The guy plays the same way all season long, perfectly fine and well, racking up numbers and performances, getting fouled incessently, but come latter stage of Cups, and the same hits he's received all season suddenly have him out for the rest of the season. Excusing the pun, he can't catch a break.
Neymar and Hazard, Hazard gets underrated far more often than Neymar does in my opinion, in another era Hazard would be talked up with the likes of Zidane who never had the greatest of stats in comparison to other attack minded players.
 

RooneyLegend

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Neymar and Hazard, Hazard gets underrated far more often than Neymar does in my opinion, in another era Hazard would be talked up with the likes of Zidane who never had the greatest of stats in comparison to other attack minded players.
Crazy talk. Hazard is no Zidane. Zidane was a playermaker in the truest sense and not an attacker hence no one talks about those stats. Would you compare Iniestas stats to the attackers of today?
 

Righteous Steps

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Crazy talk. Hazard is no Zidane. Zidane was a playermaker in the truest sense and not an attacker hence no one talks about those stats. Would you compare Iniestas stats to the attackers of today?
Hazard is a playmaker also, he carries the ball from deep areas nearly all the time, his influence is huge in terms of what he does on the ball away from just stats, people don’t seem to recognise these things as much though for whatever reason.
 

RooneyLegend

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Hazard is a playmaker also, he carries the ball from deep areas nearly all the time, his influence is huge in terms of what he does on the ball away from just stats, people don’t seem to recognise these things as much though for whatever reason.
I'm talking a real playmaker here. Hazard plays nothing like Zidane stylistically.
 

Drifter

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Paul Scholes reveals how close Ronaldinho came to signing for Manchester United

Manchester United were on the verge of signing Ronaldinho from Paris Saint-Germain according to Paul Scholes.

Paul Scholes believes Manchester United were ready to announce the signing of Ronaldinho and had picked out his shirt number before his transfer to Old Trafford collapsed.

United had sold David Beckham to Real Madrid in the summer of 2003 and the Brazilian was set to join the Reds as his replacement after emerging as one of the world's most exciting forwards during his time at Paris Saint-Germain.

Instead, Ronaldinho joined Barcelona for £25million and went on to lift two Spanish titles and one Champions League trophy with the La Liga giants before departing for AC Milan.

Scholes believes Sir Alex Ferguson had convinced the iconic playmaker to move to England with United ready to announce his move from France.

"I remember two or three that were possibly coming," he told BBC. "I think the one that stands out is Ronaldinho.

"I can't remember what year it was but I really think the manager got him.


"He was away on pre-season and we were as a close as announcing him and giving him a number but I think he ended up changing his mind at the last minute and signing for Barcelona.

"It's strange really because we played Barcelona on that pre-season tour.

"We were all excited - Ronaldinho, what a player! I think he was coming from PSG at the time and we were all going to get to play with him and he's going to bring something special.

"Almost like what Eric Cantona brought to the team then three days later, we're playing against him and all trying to kick him because he didn't sign for us.

"It was disappointing but I was lucky enough to play with some great players and he'd have just been another unbelievable player I'd had played with but it just never happened."

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c.../scholes-ronaldinho-man-utd-transfer-18238196
 

SirAF

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"I can't remember what year it was but I really think the manager got him.
This one amazed me, to be honest :lol: It was 2003, Scholsey, 2003!
 

Zehner

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Just got randomly recommended a compilation of his 2005/06 season and thought I share it. The play at 2:00 is probably the best pass I've ever seen. Enjoy:

 

11101

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I used to practice for hours to be able to catch it on my chest and run with it the way he does. Theres nobody even remotely close to him now.
 

Adisa

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Lucky to have started being properly interested in football as he was about to enter his peak.
Incredible player.
 

Zehner

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Yeah, if you think of it, football has changed a lot since these days. The top players back then tried skill moves quite frequently. Ronaldinho, Ronaldo, Zidane, Figo, Rivaldo, the young Cristiano, Robinho, ... Nowadays dribbling styles are much more streamlined and trimmed. The only one doing it regularly and successfully is probably Neymar and to a lesser degree Isco and Thiago. Maybe Sancho, too.
 

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Always a great day when there is a Ronaldinho anniversary of some kind ... social media is flooded with clips of him.
 

MUFCAFC

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What a player. I remember as a kid being heartbroken when he went to Barcelona instead of United.

Football was better with him around. Zidane too, that era really was special.