Ronaldinho: the greatest entertainer...

Sayros

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he became a commercial 'cash cow' because of how agreeable and impressive his style of play was despite how he looked and how good he was in that time. you've got that backwards by making it seem like he only won it because of some popularity contest which was to his advantage by being the face of Nike and Joga Bonito. No one rates Kaka that highly for example. and these individual awards may not mean anything to you but a player with a mediocre season won't win it with either fellow players or football writers adjudicating on it. That can generally happen only when you have impact above and beyond stat numbers like passing completion, take-ons, key passes and goals/ assists. Cannavaro is an outlier where the wc had a larger than normal bearing on the award.

i really don't know what to tell you tbh, R10 and his ability to entertain while being effective is one of the game's axioms if you can call it that. the only shame for us was how fleeting it was.
Well, Kaka's prime was shorter than my last workout so it's understandable, even if he was one of the best players in the world before his injuries.

Maybe I expressed myself wrong, I'm not trying to say Ronnie was being unfairly praised. He had, bar none, the most entertaining style football had seen ever AND he was getting results and putting Barcelona back into the elite of football and a perennial contender on all fronts. I'm not disputing any of that, I'm simply saying Henry was a better player than him. And that if you do enough on the field to be in the discussion for an award, but you also have this huge commercial vehicle behind you, it will affect people's perceptions of the player in comparison with another, which explains why he was looked so favorably which was one of your arguments as to why I'd be wrong to pick Henry over him in 2004. He had a better style than Henry for fans, at a times when we started to have video compilations, the Joga Bonito campaign, all that stuff had a huge impact on why R10 was considered the best player and some are crazy enough to say Henry was a distant second. I remember very well those times, I'm not so sure with those who think Henry was never better or a distant second do.

And now you're even downplaying how good Chelsea's defence was at the time...
I'm not downplaying them because I don't think Neymar gets into acres of space with the ball at his feet on the counter, not with that Chelsea team, but he undeniably is faster than any of them were and has more than enough tricks, skills, vision, and passing to beat that team with that Barcelona side.
 

Sayros

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You are severely underrating that Arsenal team. It was the invincibles on its final year but they were still an extremely good team and also had the best defence in CL that year. They hold the record for most clean sheets in a single CL season even after all these years.

If anything, I thought Rijkaard's Barcelona were extremely overrated during that period.
I'm not underrating them, Campbell and Toure were great and the better of the two defenses. But we are talking about forward players and the impact they made to get their team to the final, right? Can you not see how Henry playing with Ljunberg up front, knowing he is going to pretty much be the sole focus of the CBs, is a bit harder than Ronaldinho playing with Eto'o and Giuly? Again, this is not the year I'm disagreeing with Ronnie being the best player in the world, he definitely was better than Henry by that point, it just wasn't a huge margin like some make it out to be.
 

thepolice123

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I'm not underrating them, Campbell and Toure were great and the better of the two defenses. But we are talking about forward players and the impact they made to get their team to the final, right? Can you not see how Henry playing with Ljunberg up front, knowing he is going to pretty much be the sole focus of the CBs, is a bit harder than Ronaldinho playing with Eto'o and Giuly? Again, this is not the year I'm disagreeing with Ronnie being the best player in the world, he definitely was better than Henry by that point, it just wasn't a huge margin like some make it out to be.
Tbf Ljunberg was a good player for them, probably on par with Giuly and they still had Pires and Bergkamp. But on the whole, I do agree with you. Personally, I think social media has elevated Ronaldinho to near demi-god status because he was incredibly highlight reel friendly. I don't think he would even be anywhere near top 10 ATG.

IMO someone like Robben is alot closer to Ronaldinho than Ronaldinho to Ronaldo and Messi.
 

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I'm not downplaying them because I don't think Neymar gets into acres of space with the ball at his feet on the counter, not with that Chelsea team, but he undeniably is faster than any of them were and has more than enough tricks, skills, vision, and passing to beat that team with that Barcelona side.
I don't get the logic of looking at Neymar's pace, tricks, vision and saying yep, more than enough to beat one of the best defences ever with that team. That defence and its derivatives kept Messi goalless for 8 CL games. Secondly, I don't know about the previous years, but Henry wasn't even close to Ronaldinho's level in 2005 and 2006. In fact, Lampard and Gerrard were closer to Ronaldinho in 2005 than Henry.
 

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I don't get the logic of looking at Neymar's pace, tricks, vision and saying yep, more than enough to beat one of the best defences ever with that team. That defence and its derivatives kept Messi goalless for 8 CL games. Secondly, I don't know about the previous years, but Henry wasn't even close to Ronaldinho's level in 2005 and 2006. In fact, Lampard and Gerrard were closer to Ronaldinho in 2005 than Henry.
No they weren't. 39 and 35 PL goals + assists in 2004-05 and 2005-06. He was golden boot winner in both seasons and also PL player of the year in 2005-06.
 

thepolice123

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I don't get the logic of looking at Neymar's pace, tricks, vision and saying yep, more than enough to beat one of the best defences ever with that team. That defence and its derivatives kept Messi goalless for 8 CL games. Secondly, I don't know about the previous years, but Henry wasn't even close to Ronaldinho's level in 2005 and 2006. In fact, Lampard and Gerrard were closer to Ronaldinho in 2005 than Henry.
Henry peaked in 2003/04, and probably the only forward comparable to fat Ronaldo in the early 00s. Arsenal severely underperformed in CL and him unable to take centre stage for France hurt his legacy IMO.
 

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And now you're even downplaying how good Chelsea's defence was at the time...
Yeah Terry and Carvalho with Cech behind them. Unbelievable defence. But as I said earlier, Ronaldinho made fools of Gattuso, Nesta, Kaladze too. I mean he legit embarrassed Gattuso at San Siro.
 

thepolice123

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No they weren't. 39 and 35 PL goals + assists in 2004-05 and 2005-06. He was golden boot winner in both seasons and also PL player of the year in 2005-06.
Lampard and Gerrard were top 3 that season largely down to the trophies their respective teams won. It is really debatable whether were they better.
 

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Someone tell me who else rocked Bernabeu like that?

Just Messi.
 

Prometheus

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No they weren't. 39 and 35 PL goals + assists in 2004-05 and 2005-06. He was golden boot winner in both seasons and also PL player of the year in 2005-06.
Lampard 29 goals + assists PL in 2005, from midfield. He topped the assists table.

Plus he had better campaign than Henry in the CL (with 4 goals against Bayern/Barcelona in KO stages).
 
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rollingstoned1

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I'm not disputing any of that, I'm simply saying Henry was a better player than him
yea, no. that isn't remotely true and shows how off base you are. and it does look like you are disputing it actually. you're trying to make it look like only a pr machine was responsible for R10 winning the WPOTY and being regarded as highly as he was which is as disingenuous as it gets to explain away why he won it when you were told that just goals and assists don't tell the whole story and that his 'impact' was far greater than Henry's which was why he won it. not that henry was some no-mark striker who never got any recognition, turns out being the best player for the best teams in Europe actually earns you a reputation.
 

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God I miss watching him play. With all his skill Neymar doesn't come close to Ronaldinho. Ronaldinho just ran games. His passing range was amazing. He could ping the the ball 50 yards like Paul Scholes and at the same time he also had outrageous ingenuity. Other players simply wouldn't do the stuff Ronnie would do -- and he made it look easy. He was a level above everyone else on the pitch and he was absolutely frightening at his peak. His game had absolutely everything and as good as Henry was he never ever reached Ronaldinho's level. I loved Henry, he was another amazing player but Ronnie at his peak was fecking insane. I don't have enough superlatives to describe the joy I had when I saw the guy play. It was like poetry in motion.
 

thepolice123

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yea, no. that isn't remotely true and shows how off base you are. and it does look like you are disputing it actually. you're trying to make it look like only a pr machine was responsible for R10 winning the WPOTY and being regarded as highly as he was which is as disingenuous as it gets to explain away why he won it when you were told that just goals and assists don't tell the whole story and that his 'impact' was far greater than Henry's which was why he won it. not that henry was some no-mark striker who never got any recognition, turns out being the best player for the best teams in Europe actually earns you a reputation.
You can't deny that PR did help. Back then when the media was starting to take hold of football, "Brazilian samba" was huge and represented everything good about football. Brazilian footballers were marketed to god tier status. Ronaldinho was a great player but him and Henry were alot closer than you'd imagine.
 

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Lampard 29 goals + assists PL in 2005, from midfield. He topped the assists table.

Plus he had better campaign than Henry in the CL (with 4 goals against Bayern/Barcelona in KO stages).
He had better campaign as he played for better team, and won more trophies. Individually Henry was the better player in 2004-05 and 2005-06.
 

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You can't deny that PR did help. Back then when the media was starting to take hold of football, "Brazilian samba" was huge and represented everything good about football. Brazilian footballers were marketed to god tier status. Ronaldinho was a great player but him and Henry were alot closer than you'd imagine.
Well Hnery did finish 3rd behind Ronaldinho for world player of the year so they weren't worlds apart.

Ronaldinho can do everything Henry can do and some to a higher level. Henry can do nothing Ronaldinho cannot do. Ronaldinho can do much with a football that Henry could not.
 

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Henry was superior for half of those years you listed. In '03-'04, Henry had the same amount of assist and 17 more goals.....17. Sure, he's a forward, but why the same amount of assists then?

Next season, he had one less assist than R10, and again 17 more goals than him. This is across all competitions.

2005-06 is where Ronnie was the best player in the world, with 26g/24a. Henry was more responsible in single-handedly dragging his team to a CL final against Barcelona, and had 33g/10a because he was pretty much putting them on his shoulders. You have to give it to Ronnie there though. With the next year also being a superior year but it was the last time R10 could be considered the best player in the world.

Again, stats aren't everything but they are the only thing without an opinion, and it's absolute revisionist history to claim Henry was a distant second.
Goals and assists are not the decider as to who was better. One player played upfront, the other as a play maker wide player so its a strange thing to say.
Ronaldinho was a play maker in the sense that the team played through him. He would come deep and set up the play as well as make the final pass on occasion. A bit like Zidane.
 

rollingstoned1

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You can't deny that PR did help. Back then when the media was starting to take hold of football, "Brazilian samba" was huge and represented everything good about football. Brazilian footballers were marketed to god tier status. Ronaldinho was a great player but him and Henry were alot closer than you'd imagine.
you've also got it backwards then. Ronaldinho only got 'PR' because of how good he was and that he was Brazilian was incidental to it. Beckham was still a bigger brand name than him without being anywhere near as talented. And i know how good Ronnie and also Henry were, as also fat ronaldo and no they weren't close at all as footballers despite me believing that Henry was the best striker to play in the PL. You don't need to tell me at least that i'm being revisionist in overrating R10 as others in this thread when i watched them very keenly at their peaks. You could argue that he is one of the few players who deserved his hype for whatever time he was at the top of his game unlike a lot of other South Americans before and since.
 

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I find it weird when people try to downplay Ronaldinho. Was his peak short? I guess so but what a peak it was. He was the best player in the world and brought in a new fan base due to his play style. Him and Davids also revived a Barcelona team struggling in the league which shouldn't be overlooked. Pretty sure they were in the bottom half of the table before them two turned up.
 

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Tbf Ljunberg was a good player for them, probably on par with Giuly and they still had Pires and Bergkamp. But on the whole, I do agree with you. Personally, I think social media has elevated Ronaldinho to near demi-god status because he was incredibly highlight reel friendly. I don't think he would even be anywhere near top 10 ATG.

IMO someone like Robben is alot closer to Ronaldinho than Ronaldinho to Ronaldo and Messi.
Nothing to do with social media. His talents and ability with a football did this and inspired a whole generation of youth. As Lampard suggested "Ronaldinho could do impossible things with the ball,"

"I’d never seen a player like that. It was my early knockings in the Champions League and seeing him play was like, 'Wow, this player is from a different planet to the rest of us'."

"DIFFERENT PLANET TO THE REST OF US"

we are talking Maradona/Pele like talent. There were players who had amazing talent but Ronaldinho was clearly on another planet in terms of talent. It is rare for a player genius to be described as alien.

How is Robben closer? In what sense? In terms of ability, Ronaldinho actually can do more than Cristiano as he has play making abilities, vision and intelligence. Of course Ronaldo is a better goal scorer but Maradona did not score as much as Messi or ROnaldo but is still talked about in the conversation. In terms of Raw ability he matches and succeeds Ronaldo in many facet of the game. The difference is Ronaldo did it for decades so for me Rolando is the better player overall as this is more important but in terms of raw talent and ability, Ronaldinho has that. This could be mainly down to attitudes of the players are Ronaldo is the consummate professional where as Ronaldinho loved to party.
 

Demyanenko_square_jaw

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Djalminha is a player that overlapped part of his career with Ronaldinho that i'm often surprised doesn't get more mention for his style of play. He was doing a lot of those same moves Ronaldinho later did, earlier in Brazil and from 97-02 with Deportivo during one of the most competitive times for La Liga. I believe there are interviews out there with Ronaldinho where he mentions what a big influence he was on his style especially when Djalminha was at Palmeiras.

Was he as good an overall player? Of course not, though still a great player at his best that could have achieved more, he didn't have Ronaldinho's pace (being about as quick as Zidane) wasn't as good a goalscorer as Ronaldinho in his best 3-4 seasons, was less focused over the 90 mins and no more dedicated in training, a much more temperamental character that had various bustups with managers which cost him places at tournaments. Still, things like pace and goal stats aren't the things people tend to really love Ronaldinho for and it's odd to me that you get a loads of football fans acting like Ronaldinho's skills were some new thing at the time, when this guy came from the exact same mindset and school of football, with a very similar looking style and had been doing a great deal of the same street tricks in the same league during the years immediately before Ronnie hit big. Especially all the feckin' fake/no look passes.
 

Adam-Utd

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I find it weird when people try to downplay Ronaldinho. Was his peak short? I guess so but what a peak it was. He was the best player in the world and brought in a new fan base due to his play style. Him and Davids also revived a Barcelona team struggling in the league which shouldn't be overlooked. Pretty sure they were in the bottom half of the table before them two turned up.
Agreed.

Messi/Ronaldo have almost changed what it takes to be deemed a great player these days in terms of their longetivity and goal output, but for me Ronaldinho and R9 Ronaldo were 2 of the most exciting players I've ever watched.

I just love watching players pull off skills on the pitch, I get as much joy as watching somebody pull off a trick/flick and dribble passed somebody than I do watching a goal.
 

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Agreed.

Messi/Ronaldo have almost changed what it takes to be deemed a great player these days in terms of their longetivity and goal output, but for me Ronaldinho and R9 Ronaldo were 2 of the most exciting players I've ever watched.

I just love watching players pull off skills on the pitch, I get as much joy as watching somebody pull off a trick/flick and dribble passed somebody than I do watching a goal.
Ronaldinho had the rare talent of making great tacklers look like school boys. He was one of those players that knew he was better than everyone else.

The only other player alive over the past decade + or so who has humiliated or put so many great tacklers on their bums is probably Messi.

 

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I understand, but it's not just numbers, I got to follow R10's career since he played at PSG, actually had the privilege to see him play live a few times in Paris, and I just can't agree with anybody who ranks him in the top 10 of all-time, some even go as far as saying he's the GOAT because he's had two years where he was brilliant and just seemed to master the game as if he was a grown man playing against uncoordinated kids, but even in those two years he didn't push the game to its limit like a Messi/CR7 or even Neymar did when it came to results, he pushed it in style and creativity which resonates with people as well, but makes them lose perspective on the actual impact of a player, or those that came after. He was a beacon of hope for Barcelona as they were getting their golden generation together, but he helped put them on the map before that even happened and was a focal point where he could create something as soon as you gave him the ball. The problem was he was always bound to flame out, everybody in Paris knew how big of a party animal he was and how unprofessional he could be. I knew quite a few people who'd see him leaving the club at 4-5 AM (and sometimes he pushed it to the 7AM closing time) to go to training in a few hours. You can only burn bright for so long if you don't take the time to refuel. I don't claim stats are everything, but stats along with your actual recollection of the player tell a valid story. They're not everything, but they are valid.

For all the magic R10 had in his game, Neymar's got that as well, and blew his stats out of the water when he took over during Messi's injury. Now I know stats get some eye rolls around here, but they're just records of events in a game and while they can be twisted to fit certain narratives, they're still a good indication of what impact a player made with the role he had on the team. Lukaku's numbers in the premier league don't make stats ineffective so I'm not sure what your point is there, maybe that he was flat-track bully and put up his numbers against weaker opposition for the most part, but he still contributed to getting results. R10's had great games against great sides, but not enough in my view to put him so high on a pedestal of all-time greats, there's just too many actual all-time greats that get forgotten if you make space at the table for a guy like R10.

The biggest games of his careers, in my opinion, were the WC final in 2002 (where he was solid but didn't stand out like R9 or Rivaldo did, but he was still young), the CL final against Arsenal (where he didn't really show up, but they won), the World cup 1/4 final against France (where, again, he didn't show up and they lost when this was supposed to be his team to lead). Ronnie's never had a season close to that or what CR7/Messi/Neymar achieved. There's plenty of reasons beyond just the difference in their game for that, but it has to put a little bit of perspective on Ronnie's career when it comes to evaluating him next to the game's greats. Neymar is a better player than Ronnie ever was, but because people don't like his personality, antics, or career choices so they seem to dismiss him but there's no doubt in my mind that while Ronnie was the most fun I've had watching a player, he is nowhere near one of the bests in history.

Sorry for the long paragraphs, I was trying to save that by my simple statement earlier, but I'm self-quarantined and bored out of my skull.
Interesting, so how would you rate R9 under this same criteria? He also burned brightly for a short period too. Would you say Neymar is just as good/better?
 

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I understand, but it's not just numbers, I got to follow R10's career since he played at PSG, actually had the privilege to see him play live a few times in Paris, and I just can't agree with anybody who ranks him in the top 10 of all-time, some even go as far as saying he's the GOAT because he's had two years where he was brilliant and just seemed to master the game as if he was a grown man playing against uncoordinated kids, but even in those two years he didn't push the game to its limit like a Messi/CR7 or even Neymar did when it came to results, he pushed it in style and creativity which resonates with people as well, but makes them lose perspective on the actual impact of a player, or those that came after. He was a beacon of hope for Barcelona as they were getting their golden generation together, but he helped put them on the map before that even happened and was a focal point where he could create something as soon as you gave him the ball. The problem was he was always bound to flame out, everybody in Paris knew how big of a party animal he was and how unprofessional he could be. I knew quite a few people who'd see him leaving the club at 4-5 AM (and sometimes he pushed it to the 7AM closing time) to go to training in a few hours. You can only burn bright for so long if you don't take the time to refuel. I don't claim stats are everything, but stats along with your actual recollection of the player tell a valid story. They're not everything, but they are valid.

For all the magic R10 had in his game, Neymar's got that as well, and blew his stats out of the water when he took over during Messi's injury. Now I know stats get some eye rolls around here, but they're just records of events in a game and while they can be twisted to fit certain narratives, they're still a good indication of what impact a player made with the role he had on the team. Lukaku's numbers in the premier league don't make stats ineffective so I'm not sure what your point is there, maybe that he was flat-track bully and put up his numbers against weaker opposition for the most part, but he still contributed to getting results. R10's had great games against great sides, but not enough in my view to put him so high on a pedestal of all-time greats, there's just too many actual all-time greats that get forgotten if you make space at the table for a guy like R10.

The biggest games of his careers, in my opinion, were the WC final in 2002 (where he was solid but didn't stand out like R9 or Rivaldo did, but he was still young), the CL final against Arsenal (where he didn't really show up, but they won), the World cup 1/4 final against France (where, again, he didn't show up and they lost when this was supposed to be his team to lead). Ronnie's never had a season close to that or what CR7/Messi/Neymar achieved. There's plenty of reasons beyond just the difference in their game for that, but it has to put a little bit of perspective on Ronnie's career when it comes to evaluating him next to the game's greats. Neymar is a better player than Ronnie ever was, but because people don't like his personality, antics, or career choices so they seem to dismiss him but there's no doubt in my mind that while Ronnie was the most fun I've had watching a player, he is nowhere near one of the bests in history.

Sorry for the long paragraphs, I was trying to save that by my simple statement earlier, but I'm self-quarantined and bored out of my skull.
Neymar does not have his vision or playmaking abilities. I am not just talking assists/making the final pass I am talking orchestrating attacks, Neymar is a final 3rd guy.

Ronaldinho had far better vision than Neymar to the extent he would easily be selected as a number 10 ahead of Neymar for any team. Ronaldinho was a 10 playing LW. Neymar is a 9 playing LWF. Neymar does not possess the strenght or balance of Ronalindho, free kick ability, penalty ability and Ronalindho was definitely a better dribbler.

Romario nor Rivaldo has never had a season like what CR7/Messi/Neymar has acheived, so I guess Neymar must be the top 5 Brazilian players of all time????
you also said Ronalindho hasn't? well statistically he has....
In 2006 Ronaldinho registered 50 G+A in 45 games and 3900mins
In 2015 Neymar registered 49 G+A in 51 appearances and 4100 mins


He's not even that far off, in terms of numbers and he is more of an attacking midfielder than a forward.


Not even in Brazil do they think Neymar is a better player.
 

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Djalminha is a player that overlapped part of his career with Ronaldinho that i'm often surprised doesn't get more mention for his style of play. He was doing a lot of those same moves Ronaldinho later did, earlier in Brazil and from 97-02 with Deportivo during one of the most competitive times for La Liga. I believe there are interviews out there with Ronaldinho where he mentions what a big influence he was on his style especially when Djalminha was at Palmeiras.

Was he as good an overall player? Of course not, though still a great player at his best that could have achieved more, he didn't have Ronaldinho's pace (being about as quick as Zidane) wasn't as good a goalscorer as Ronaldinho in his best 3-4 seasons, was less focused over the 90 mins and no more dedicated in training, a much more temperamental character that had various bustups with managers which cost him places at tournaments. Still, things like pace and goal stats aren't the things people tend to really love Ronaldinho for and it's odd to me that you get a loads of football fans acting like Ronaldinho's skills were some new thing at the time, when this guy came from the exact same mindset and school of football, with a very similar looking style and had been doing a great deal of the same street tricks in the same league during the years immediately before Ronnie hit big. Especially all the feckin' fake/no look passes.
Djalminha is to Ronaldinho what Hatem Ben Arfa is to Messi.

(In case that comes across as a diss I love watching Ben Arfa).
 

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There's no way people can say Ronaldinho was overrated during his peak. For those 3 odd years at Barcelona when he was at his best, no one was playing the same game as him. In an era of great players, he stood above the rest comfortably.
 

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Djalminha is to Ronaldinho what Hatem Ben Arfa is to Messi.

(In case that comes across as a diss I love watching Ben Arfa).
I'd definitely say it's significantly underrating how good Djalminha was and i like Ben Arfa too. However he's deeply flawed and closer to your typical talented and athletic dribbling player without much consistent end product or vision, he's far too often ineffectual. Djalminha was a troublemaker that could have achieved more too, but from 95-01 was far superior to that, actually an elite player in his own right with great vision/end product to his game and a star at Palmeiras alongside Cafu and Rivaldo and at Deportivo,where the level he was playing at as an individual especially when they won the league was comfortably the same tier of any other la liga midfield greats around that time.

Anyway i wasn't trying to be contrarian and suggest he was better than Ronaldinho, just that he was someone with a similar style (and also elite in his prime) that i'm surprised doesn't get more appreciation when people talk about players like this. I guess if he'd been doing it at Barca alongside old teammate Rivaldo, or slightly later when the sport really got more commercial he might be more remembered...not headbutting his manager and so staying longer at Deportivo would have helped too:lol:.He'd be a world star playing in Spain and for Brazil today imo.
 

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It is ridiculous to say that Henry was better than Ronaldinho. Henry may have been the better scorer for sure but Henry can only dream of the things Ronaldinho did. I personally think it is a good thing for football that he did not come to United. Of course I would have loved to see him play at United but he is an entertainer and it is something that is not appreciated at the PL. He will be accused of not putting in a shift. At PSG and Barca he was allowed to do his thing and that is why football was so great when he plays with a smile on his face.
 

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Interesting, so how would you rate R9 under this same criteria? He also burned brightly for a short period too. Would you say Neymar is just as good/better?
R9 is the best player I've ever seen, and Ronaldinho is up there too btw. But at what point does consistency come into play? What about trophies? It's well-known R9 has never won a Champion's League, for example, despite being in some great teams. After his injuries, he was still banging them in but he clearly wasn't the same player anymore. I think if a pre-injury R9 came to start playing football today, in a decent team, he would at the very least be able to match what Messi/CR7 accomplished in their prime within a couple of seasons, but it never turned out that way, and that point is moot.

I get everybody disagreeing with me, I can clearly recognize R10 is a phenomenal player and dominated football for a moment in a way that Neymar or Henry never did. But he didn't do it for very long, and since those days the limits of the game have been pushed to a different level, on a consistent basis by both CR7/Messi and, to a lesser extent mainly due to injuries, Neymar. He could end up surpassing both R9 and R10 in terms of accomplishments and stats if he can stay healthy, it has to count for something instead of just looking at talent, short-term prime, and what-ifs scenarios.

Neymar does not have his vision or playmaking abilities. I am not just talking assists/making the final pass I am talking orchestrating attacks, Neymar is a final 3rd guy.

Ronaldinho had far better vision than Neymar to the extent he would easily be selected as a number 10 ahead of Neymar for any team. Ronaldinho was a 10 playing LW. Neymar is a 9 playing LWF. Neymar does not possess the strenght or balance of Ronalindho, free kick ability, penalty ability and Ronalindho was definitely a better dribbler.

Romario nor Rivaldo has never had a season like what CR7/Messi/Neymar has acheived, so I guess Neymar must be the top 5 Brazilian players of all time????
you also said Ronalindho hasn't? well statistically he has....
In 2006 Ronaldinho registered 50 G+A in 45 games and 3900mins
In 2015 Neymar registered 49 G+A in 51 appearances and 4100 mins


He's not even that far off, in terms of numbers and he is more of an attacking midfielder than a forward.


Not even in Brazil do they think Neymar is a better player.
I'm not claiming to speak for all people of Brazil, I'm only giving my opinion, it's fine if everybody disagrees, but I haven't really heard anything outside of passionate opinions and I'm trying to look at it from an emotionless point of view.

On the bolded bit, if you're going to use Ronaldinho's best season at the club, at least compare it to Neymar's best season, which was the year after where he scored 31 goals and 25 assists.

Now in their career at the club, Neymar has had more goals and more assists than Ronaldinho in less games. Now, I agree on the strength bit, but not on the balance bit, Neymar is extremely balanced, but he is so frail and he looks for the contact to get someone booked. Different styles doesn't make one bit of a difference on the debate of the two in my eyes. Also your 'evidence' on Ronaldinho's undeniable superiority in dribbling, free-kicks, or penalties is just purely your opinion, it's not backed by any kind of actual evidence, so I'm not disagreeing with you, but I'm not sure you're right either.

Now your point about one being more of a midfielder, and the other more of a forward could be valid, but I do remember Ronaldinho playing up quite a bit. Sure, it wasn't the same as what Neymar did, but you also have to keep in mind that Neymar surpassed him statistically in less games while playing with Messi and Suarez, and with a first season where he had no experience playing in Europe.

Ronaldinho had Eto'o, who was a beast in his own right (and an aging Henry who deferred a lot in his Barca days), but he was essentially the Messi of Barcelona where he had the ball and everything went through him, including taking all of the penalties which should have helped his goals while Neymar hardly ever did. So if anything, he could and probably should have had even better seasons than he did if he was vastly superior to Neymar. Because players like R10 and Neymar are more effective the more they have the ball (I think we can both agree on that, right?), Neymar didn't have nearly as much of that at Barcelona as Ronaldinho did, and yet he accomplished more with less time on the ball.
 

2mufc0

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R9 is the best player I've ever seen, and Ronaldinho is up there too btw. But at what point does consistency come into play? What about trophies? It's well-known R9 has never won a Champion's League, for example, despite being in some great teams. After his injuries, he was still banging them in but he clearly wasn't the same player anymore. I think if a pre-injury R9 came to start playing football today, in a decent team, he would at the very least be able to match what Messi/CR7 accomplished in their prime within a couple of seasons, but it never turned out that way, and that point is moot.
I asked just to test your consistency really, if you rate Neymar higher than Ronaldinho under the same criteria Neymar should be ahead of Ronaldo too. But you didn't answer the question though!

BTW i don't disagree with everything you said about Ronaldinho's career, there's a a lot i agree on, just questioning the methodology behind saying Neymar > Ronaldinho.
 

Sayros

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I asked just to test your consistency really, if you rate Neymar higher than Ronaldinho under the same criteria Neymar should be ahead of Ronaldo too. But you didn't answer the question though!

BTW i don't disagree with everything you said about Ronaldinho's career, there's a a lot i agree on, just questioning the methodology behind saying Neymar > Ronaldinho.
Well, I tried my best to lay out my methodology for putting Neymar above Ronaldinho, I can't really go more into it, but it's a tougher question to answer for me when it comes to R9 vs Neymar, because I've always looked at the former as the greatest I'd ever seen play, and even post-injury he was still very consistent even if he wasn't the same player. I can't put Neymar above R9 due to the fact that R9 played a big part in winning a world cup and an even bigger one in getting Brazil to the WC final even if they ended up losing with him compromised. Now, obviously, Neymar's Brazil is not the same as R9's who had a superior team around him, but R9 in 98 was truly world-class throughout the tournament and a one-man wrecking machine for defenses. In 2002, Rivaldo was huge for Brazil but overall R9's impact on the world cup is a big reason why I still put him above Neymar, because I think world cup success is important when we talk about the greatest players, since it removes them from clubs that can tailor their team around them for maximum success and puts them in situations where it might not necessarily be tailor-made for them and they have to find a way to shine. I hold it against CR7 and Messi, for example, that they've never scored in a world cup elimination game in their long careers, nevermind not even having won it. Is it fair? Maybe not, but we're talking Greatest of All Time so it shouldn't compromise on international success.

And just to bring it back to Ronaldinho, his downfall was his own doing. With R9, I found out later on he was a huge party animal as well, even if it wasn't as well-documented back then, but his downfall never felt like his own doing. He somehow found a way to always perform no matter what happened the night before, and we can argue whether his injuries are due to a lack of attention to his body or just bad luck, but R10 didn't have to ever come back from what R9 came back from several times over his career. He got robbed of being the greatest ever, so that also plays a role in my perception of him being above Neymar, but I don't think it's outlandish to at least consider the debate, even if I lean towards R9, because Neymar still has time to play and accomplish great things that could change this into a valid question if you look at both of their careers in totality.
 

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R9 is the best player I've ever seen, and Ronaldinho is up there too btw. But at what point does consistency come into play? What about trophies? It's well-known R9 has never won a Champion's League, for example, despite being in some great teams. After his injuries, he was still banging them in but he clearly wasn't the same player anymore. I think if a pre-injury R9 came to start playing football today, in a decent team, he would at the very least be able to match what Messi/CR7 accomplished in their prime within a couple of seasons, but it never turned out that way, and that point is moot.

I get everybody disagreeing with me, I can clearly recognize R10 is a phenomenal player and dominated football for a moment in a way that Neymar or Henry never did. But he didn't do it for very long, and since those days the limits of the game have been pushed to a different level, on a consistent basis by both CR7/Messi and, to a lesser extent mainly due to injuries, Neymar. He could end up surpassing both R9 and R10 in terms of accomplishments and stats if he can stay healthy, it has to count for something instead of just looking at talent, short-term prime, and what-ifs scenarios.



I'm not claiming to speak for all people of Brazil, I'm only giving my opinion, it's fine if everybody disagrees, but I haven't really heard anything outside of passionate opinions and I'm trying to look at it from an emotionless point of view.

On the bolded bit, if you're going to use Ronaldinho's best season at the club, at least compare it to Neymar's best season, which was the year after where he scored 31 goals and 25 assists.

Now in their career at the club, Neymar has had more goals and more assists than Ronaldinho in less games. Now, I agree on the strength bit, but not on the balance bit, Neymar is extremely balanced, but he is so frail and he looks for the contact to get someone booked. Different styles doesn't make one bit of a difference on the debate of the two in my eyes. Also your 'evidence' on Ronaldinho's undeniable superiority in dribbling, free-kicks, or penalties is just purely your opinion, it's not backed by any kind of actual evidence, so I'm not disagreeing with you, but I'm not sure you're right either.

Now your point about one being more of a midfielder, and the other more of a forward could be valid, but I do remember Ronaldinho playing up quite a bit. Sure, it wasn't the same as what Neymar did, but you also have to keep in mind that Neymar surpassed him statistically in less games while playing with Messi and Suarez, and with a first season where he had no experience playing in Europe.

Ronaldinho had Eto'o, who was a beast in his own right (and an aging Henry who deferred a lot in his Barca days), but he was essentially the Messi of Barcelona where he had the ball and everything went through him, including taking all of the penalties which should have helped his goals while Neymar hardly ever did. So if anything, he could and probably should have had even better seasons than he did if he was vastly superior to Neymar. Because players like R10 and Neymar are more effective the more they have the ball (I think we can both agree on that, right?), Neymar didn't have nearly as much of that at Barcelona as Ronaldinho did, and yet he accomplished more with less time on the ball.
Ronaldinho wasn't the Messi of Barcelona because he played with Messi! I do not doubt that Neymar had better stats, but that is no surprise as he is more of a deeper playmaker and is involved more in the earlier phases of Barca build up.

I feel Messi has a unique status at Barcelona, non comparable to any player in their history. Neymar scored 8/10 pens for Barcelona in La Liga and Ronaldinho 22/26, so Ronaldinho was more on duties and could be because he was the better at them!. but he wads definitely better at free kicks as he has 66 free kick goals which is more than both Cristiano and Messi. Neymar has nowhere near, so its not a skill set thats too high for him. Ronaldinho was one of the best passers/playmakers in the world during his day which is why he was an ideal AMC.

There isn't any attritubute I can confidantly say Neymer is better than Ronaldinho at. Possibly taking up attacking/goal scoring positions Neymar is better as he is a striker? Neymar I imagine had the ball more in the final 3rd than Ronaldinho
 

Prometheus

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I get everybody disagreeing with me, I can clearly recognize R10 is a phenomenal player and dominated football for a moment in a way that Neymar or Henry never did. But he didn't do it for very long...
No one would disagree with that, but that's not what you said... in fact, you were saying the opposite.
...but even in those two years he didn't push the game to its limit like a Messi/CR7 or even Neymar did when it came to results...
Also added
For all the magic R10 had in his game, Neymar's got that as well, and blew his stats out of the water when he took over during Messi's injury.
Which he really did not, as has been pointed out (not mention Messi got injured in September and only missed CL games against minnows).
 

Gio

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The problem with directly comparing Ronaldinho's statistics with those of Neymar and Cristiano Ronaldo are two-fold. Firstly, Ronaldinho took on more of a playmaking mantle than either of those player, or Henry for that matter. He had more responsibility to get moves going from slightly further away from goal. Basically he was much more creator than goalscorer. Secondly and more importantly, his peak was before the game became hugely imbalanced. The top teams did not routinely reach 90+ points and 100+ goals a season when he was in his prime. Instead the top teams got 70-85 points and a lot fewer goals. The teams were much more evenly matched in the financial resources they could call upon. On the park possession was much more evenly split between teams. Top teams actually spent a lot of time defending, whereas during the last decade they've spent the majority of their time in the opposition's third. It's a completely different environment for scoring goals and the odds are much more stacked in the favour of the attackers from the best teams. It's not just these guys, but a sport-wide trend where the records across most of the elite leagues are being set over the last few years. So much weight seems to be getting placed on Ronaldinho not producing the same end product as players who have benefited from a game much more conducive to boosting their statistics.
 

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The problem with directly comparing Ronaldinho's statistics with those of Neymar and Cristiano Ronaldo are two-fold. Firstly, Ronaldinho took on more of a playmaking mantle than either of those player, or Henry for that matter. He had more responsibility to get moves going from slightly further away from goal. Basically he was much more creator than goalscorer. Secondly and more importantly, his peak was before the game became hugely imbalanced. The top teams did not routinely reach 90+ points and 100+ goals a season when he was in his prime. Instead the top teams got 70-85 points and a lot fewer goals. The teams were much more evenly matched in the financial resources they could call upon. On the park possession was much more evenly split between teams. Top teams actually spent a lot of time defending, whereas during the last decade they've spent the majority of their time in the opposition's third. It's a completely different environment for scoring goals and the odds are much more stacked in the favour of the attackers from the best teams. It's not just these guys, but a sport-wide trend where the records across most of the elite leagues are being set over the last few years. So much weight seems to be getting placed on Ronaldinho not producing the same end product as players who have benefited from a game much more conducive to boosting their statistics.
pretty much what I said regarding his playmaker role and good points regarding the rest. back then you would win the league with 75-85 points and 80 goals. Then in 2015 it was 94 pts and 118 goals. Real and Barcelona scored 230 goals in the league between them that season with a goal difference of plus 90. they were scoring free for all
 

harms

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It's not quite the clip where French players talk about Ronaldo in a training before the World Cup final, but when I read it, I immediately thought of this thread.

Aleksandr Kerzhakov, Russian ex-footballer that played for Sevilla, talks about a tactical training before a game against Barca:

We gathered at the hotel's conference hall before the game for a theory lesson. We watched how Barcelona did the build-up, how they did corners, throw-ins etc. And there was a throw-in in a game against Athletic Bilbao, where the ball was thrown towards Ronaldinho, he controlled it with his chest, kicked it up over 2 players, played one-two, ran forward, beat another defender and then hit the crossbar.

The whole team was laughing: "Why are we even watching this? How are we supposed to stop him?". And our coach said: "Fair enough. Turn it off, let's wrap it up"
The move was a bit different than he describes it, but it's well-worth a rewatch:
 

elmo

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Neymar's actual achievements are underwhelming once you realise he played in a stacked Barcelona team and PSG which might as well be awarded the league title from day 1 of the season.

Ronaldinho is so much better that it's hilarious that you've people writing paragraphs to convince others that Neymar is anywhere near comparable to him.
 

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Neymar never gets objectively analyzed. Ronaldinho rarely does either; tilted the other way.

I don't see people trying to be comprehensive about either, which is interesting given the nation they're from and how their countrymen have been broken down to minute in the past.

Ronaldinho is a living icon and embodiment of jogo bonito - essentially, his essence is more than football: it is a representation of fantasy taken to an extreme many have not bore witness to in another player. The marrying of incomprehensible brilliance, fun and effortlessness has never been so neatly wrapped in a similar package.

Other players had the technical brilliance and/or the effortlessness, but at the level of best on the planet (however fleeting) Ronaldinho stands alone in relation to having the kind of fun that was tangible and captivating - was he doing that to take the piss or win the game, or both? You're not taken on that kind of journey with any other true all-time great and that's part of the reason he's [Ronaldinho] a law unto himself when these discussions come round.

I feel like Neymar will be objectively judged by generations barely even able to watch a full 90 minutes of football yet. His image and reputation precede him. He rarely, if ever, gets a fair trial.
 

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He's the player that has scared me the most while playing against Chelsea.

To add further perspective to that, he only ever played against us during Mourinho's first spell incharge.