You are responding to my post, to which isn't address to you at all, and you are saying I think you are a R9 fanboy?
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Ronaldo vs Ronaldo
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
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CR7's best season (that season he scored in every CL knockout game against top teams) > R9's best season (Barcelona's season)
That tells you everything you need to know. After that if you keep comparing seasons, of course CR7 stays on top in every one. Yeah R9 had the world cup, but no CL to CR7's FIVE, so dont even go there.
CR7's Manchester United 2007/2008 season is better than any of the other R9's seasons, and that CR7 wasnt even close to his prime.
That tells you everything you need to know. After that if you keep comparing seasons, of course CR7 stays on top in every one. Yeah R9 had the world cup, but no CL to CR7's FIVE, so dont even go there.
CR7's Manchester United 2007/2008 season is better than any of the other R9's seasons, and that CR7 wasnt even close to his prime.
Like a rabona which has literally zero impact at all since it is a completely useful trick? Or an overhead kick that happens once every two or three seasons? Shots from 25m+, of which Cristiano probably converted like 4 or 5? Crossing (where Cristiano is good but nothing special) and headers which are the strategy with the lowest success rate of all attacking patterns? If you don't understand that ball control and dribbling are more important than those things, I can't help you, but they are.
Anyway, I believe you know you were wrong. Your memory tricked you and now that you realize that Ronaldo is the superior technician you bring up strawman arguments since you can't admit it. It's the same with the pace. I mean, it's so incredibly obvious that Ronaldo was on a different level to almost any player out there and yet you still refuse to believe it. Cristiano never had Mbappe level pace and I'm not even sure Mbappe is on par with R9.
And that also applies to the tricks discussion. Where on earth has Cristiano more variety? R9 used countless variants of stepovers, elasticos, his famous shoulder drop, the Zidane roulette and various unnamed tricks far more regularly than CR7. And probably the most important difference is that Ronaldo actually did beat defenders with them while Cristiano in his prime almost completely relied on outrunning his opponents. For him, a stepover was something you did on the sideline with comfortable distance to a defender.
That also applies to passing by the way. You name Cristiano playing with his back (what he did twice or thrice during his whole career, btw), R9 did this with the chest and the shoulder (55 seconds in):
The reason why Cristiano (who's in my opinion still an incredibly gifted footballer) is among the best ever is not that he's a GOAT level technician or one of the fastest players ever - because he's neither of those things - but his understanding of the game. Most of his goals - in stark contrast to Messi or R9 - don't require great technical skill. You'd say that almost any forward out there could score 90% of his goals from a purely technical or athletic point of view. What's special is that he ends up in so, so many of these situations. He's got insane positioning, insane timing, insane awareness and insane reaction times.
Only if you go by goal stats. It's funny because you are now using the exact same arguments Cal? and co. use against CR7.
I also disagree that this was Cristiano's best season. He scored much but wasn't a factor beside that. He used to be much better between 2009 and 2013, IMO.
I just felt sick after watching some of those videos. Remember when football used to be fun?
I forgot how it was like to have a player that would always make things happen. Never mind CRonaldo, I’d take Nani!
I forgot how it was like to have a player that would always make things happen. Never mind CRonaldo, I’d take Nani!
I dont only go by stats, where CR7 is clearly superior. The influence he had on his team on that season cant be argued. He was the key player and pretty much the reason why they won the CL that year (even if he did mostly dissappear in the final). We arent talking about just some random poacher that happened to score a bunch of goals.
Thats another thing, you cant pretty much pick any season and say its CR7s best for sure, since hes had so many elite level seasons that can be compared to any other player's season in history.
He wasnt as flashy as R9, that guy was lighting quick and would instantly change direction without losing an inch of pace somehow, but still, as great as he was, as nearly unstoppable he was, CR7's best is just as good, at the very least.
Dont even get me started with Messi vs R9 because thats just too easy.
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And that's where we differ. I don't think Cristiano peaked as highly. Messi did (though I believe R9 would've been even better than Messi if he had been allowed to mature without injuries). I have him as more or less equally talented because Messi has this incredible passing ability while R9 is even faster, more explosive and stronger than him. But Cristiano? He got 100% out of his talent which is of course immense but R9 in his prime, even if he only utilized 80% of his, is simply superior IMO. He did things Cristiano was never capable of and I don't think that's the case the other way round. You don't see skills or goals of CR7 where you say "wow, Ronaldo could never have done this" bar maybe the headers, the freekicks and the extreme long range shots but when you watch a compilation of R9's prime seasons, there are so, so many scenes which Cristiano never even came close to.
I disagree with the comparison with Messi. Dont think R9 would have been better either, or even particularly close to Messi. Even so, its pointless to argue about this because we simply will never know.
But see, prime R9 was a 10/10 striker. No player in history can be voted ahead of R9 for the #9 position. You can fit him in any system and he wont be beaten by anyone.
Messi wouldnt be a 10/10 striker, he is probably a 9.5/10 striker, better or just as good as any other striker in the history of the game not named Luis Ronaldo Nazario. Ill give you that.
But then, outside of the pure #9 position, Messi beats R9 anyday by a comfortable margin. As a RW, Messi is the GOAT, 10/10 and R9 could never best Messi on his best position. As a false 9/center forward, Messi is the GOAT and R9 could never best Messi here. As a CAM, Messi is a 10/10 and R9 wouldnt even come close to Messi.
So no i dont think R9 peaked as high as Messi nor i think he would have been as good as Messi, even in this hypothetical universe where R9 stays 100% fit. Not even on the late stages of his career did R9 show half the technique Messi has been showing since 2008 when it comes to passing and controlling the game. On pure shooting and dribbling ability, i dont think R9 can be called equal either.
What R9 had over Messi was that he, on top of being faster than even prime Messi, he was stronger so he could take on defenders easily, but then again Messi is no weak boy either, and even if he rarely gets caught by defenders because of his utterly ridiculous dribbling and ball control speed, the times he does get caught, hes no easy to pushover by any means. But yes R9 was stronger, a tank and a jet with or without the ball.
With CR7 the comparison is something similar, except LW instead of RW, and without having the arguments Messi has in his favour in regards to passing ability. Other than that its pretty much the same. Yeah its closer IMO but still i would pick CR7 over R9 longetivity wise, and peak-wise i dont know, i guess it depends on the rest of the team. Cant go wrong with either one IMO.
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I assume that R9 is less likely to maintain his fitness throughout a season, not that he can't. Better nutrition is not really an edge that CR7 has, he's up against players who had all those things as well and eating well is something that R9 could easily have done.
CR7 also wasn't a slouch as a teenager either. He was considered one of the top talents in the world throughout his career. His work ethic just brought him from this R9, van Basten, whoever great player status to the GOAT discussion because that what it took.
What I'm saying is I don't like prime vs prime discussions because it doesn't take into account many factors of a professional footballers. If you want to do that however you probably still should pick CR7. 2002/03 squad on paper should rival CR7 Real teams yet there was a big difference in results and individual achievement between the two. Perhaps the difference were those 2?
People are actually debating this?
Original Ronaldo. Not even close
Cristiano happens to be one of the best athletes to exist....durability, athleticism etc but football wise ...let’s face it... el-fenomino was on another planet. One of the best purest number 9’s to ever play the game. Cristiano was a winger and it shows.
I don't, but you certainly do.
When it comes to football, the term technique refers mainly to dribbling and ball control. It's not about how you feckin position your feet to run.
When did I say that? Can't you read ? I said that even though R9 never bothered much to take or practice free kicks, he was very good at them when he did.
Your case is anything but strong, you just gave some career stats which are completely irrelevant when comparing peaks.
And there are plenty of videos of R9 passing skills, look them up. Like I said, he has more vision than CR7 in terms of passing.
Again, this is peak vs peak. The R9 that played for Real was a shadow of the player he was at Barcelona and Inter. And when all those stars played together, they were all past their peak or at the end of their best years. Plus they lacked a proper defensive line.
And there is no romanticism form my behalf. Unlike you little kids, I actually got to see R9 play live. I've also seen CR7. R9 was superior. All your stupid arguments regarding stats won't change that.
Like Zlatan once said, CR7 is just the result of training, he isn't special in terms of talent.
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Even without major success it can still be fun IMO. It' that we are dysfunctional and that kills the enjoyment.
Cristiano at Madrid is a God next to Di Stefano, Cristiano at United is a God next to Best (he left aged only 24), that tells you all you need to know about the guy, I shudder to think if he was born a Brazilian.
So yeah Cristiano for me.
So yeah Cristiano for me.
Yes, of course. It was a little on the nose, but my oh my how spoilt we used to be with the players at our disposal. Not one player in today’s squad have that wow factor, where you just know something will happen when they get on the ball.
Brilliant post.
I consider Cristiano Ronaldo the better player with better achievements but Ronaldo is often considered the better player as a pure striker among the very best in history as he was also a very complete player in that position.
Better vs Greater are two separate categories.
CR7 is undeniably the greater player (at club level). R9 at his peak was a more skillful footballer.
CR7 is undeniably the greater player (at club level). R9 at his peak was a more skillful footballer.
Better player/higher peak? Easily Ronaldo.
Better career? Definitely Cristiano.
Better career? Definitely Cristiano.
Luis Ronaldo is a sensational talent and has had a great career. And was a better talent than Cristiano.
But Cristiano has an even greater career.
Sorry I prefer a dedicated person like Cristiano over a lazy bastard like Luis Ronaldo.
But Cristiano has an even greater career.
Sorry I prefer a dedicated person like Cristiano over a lazy bastard like Luis Ronaldo.
I don't think R9 was more skillful or more talented. I just think people have a skewed idea of what talent is. People immediately point to balance and being able to dribble. They like to think of players as street ballers, but the truth is the sport is played with 11 players, not one. Knowing how to play with others and use the other players around you is also part of skill.
Secondly, people evaluate CR7 as a winger when its convenient and a striker when not so much. As a striker, Ronaldo's game looks a lot more impressive. The goals he scored are actually more impressive than R9's if people evaluate him as a striker, but the problem comes when people then compare his goals to a more traditional playmaker or winger like ronaldinho, despite consistently failing to comprehend the amount of goals he scored. Individual defenders may have been better than they are today, but team defences aren't imo. I think ronaldo and messi have had to do more. Both scoring 50 goals a season is a result of their quality rather than the lack of quality of defenders. It's completely unfair. Look at Madrid now, how many players are scoring even 30? The truth is they aren't close. CR7 is superior both in peak and career ( by such a high amount that it should be incomparable).
It's a crime to compare Cristiano to anyone either than Messi, it's a crime punishable by hanging
, a 5 time Ballon D'or winner is nothing to sniff at.
, a 5 time Ballon D'or winner is nothing to sniff at.Better Talent: L.Ronaldo
- L.Ronaldo 10/10 (probably the best talent ever before his injuries)
- C.Ronaldo 9.5/10 (probably best talent ever in PL)
Peak performance: L. Ronaldo
- L.Ronaldo: 10/10 (1996-1998)
- C.Ronaldo: 9.5/10 (2007-2013)
Peak season (performance + overall impact): C. Ronaldo
- C.Ronaldo: 10/10 (60 goals 15 assist in 55 game in 11/12, 61 goals 21 assists in 54 games in 14/15)
- L.Ronaldo: 9.5/10 (47 goals in 49 games in 96/97)
Overall stats: C. Ronaldo
- C.Ronaldo: 10/10 (756+ career goals, 225+ career assist)
- L.Ronaldo: 8.5/10 (414 career goals)
Overall success: C.Ronaldo
- C.Ronaldo: 10/10 (5 CL, 1 Euro, overall 30+ trophies won)
- L.Ronaldo: 9/10 (1 WC, 2 Copa, overall 17 trophies won)
Overall individual achievements: C.Ronaldo
- C.Ronaldo: 10/10 (5 Ballon D'ors)
- L.Ronaldo: 9/10 (2 Ballon D'ors)
Consistency/Longevity: C.Ronaldo
- Ronaldo: 10/10 (15+ world class seasons at the very top, 12 times voted among top 3 in Ballon D'or)
- L.Ronaldo: 8/10 (around 6 world class seasons at the very top, 4 times voted among top 3 in Ballon D'or)
Verdict:
If we judge by talent and peak only and ignore everything else, L.Ronaldo is arguably better.
If we judge by everything else, C.Ronaldo is easily better.
Its up to what you want to look at. Overall speaking, C.Ronaldo wins by quite a margin.
- L.Ronaldo 10/10 (probably the best talent ever before his injuries)
- C.Ronaldo 9.5/10 (probably best talent ever in PL)
Peak performance: L. Ronaldo
- L.Ronaldo: 10/10 (1996-1998)
- C.Ronaldo: 9.5/10 (2007-2013)
Peak season (performance + overall impact): C. Ronaldo
- C.Ronaldo: 10/10 (60 goals 15 assist in 55 game in 11/12, 61 goals 21 assists in 54 games in 14/15)
- L.Ronaldo: 9.5/10 (47 goals in 49 games in 96/97)
Overall stats: C. Ronaldo
- C.Ronaldo: 10/10 (756+ career goals, 225+ career assist)
- L.Ronaldo: 8.5/10 (414 career goals)
Overall success: C.Ronaldo
- C.Ronaldo: 10/10 (5 CL, 1 Euro, overall 30+ trophies won)
- L.Ronaldo: 9/10 (1 WC, 2 Copa, overall 17 trophies won)
Overall individual achievements: C.Ronaldo
- C.Ronaldo: 10/10 (5 Ballon D'ors)
- L.Ronaldo: 9/10 (2 Ballon D'ors)
Consistency/Longevity: C.Ronaldo
- Ronaldo: 10/10 (15+ world class seasons at the very top, 12 times voted among top 3 in Ballon D'or)
- L.Ronaldo: 8/10 (around 6 world class seasons at the very top, 4 times voted among top 3 in Ballon D'or)
Verdict:
If we judge by talent and peak only and ignore everything else, L.Ronaldo is arguably better.
If we judge by everything else, C.Ronaldo is easily better.
Its up to what you want to look at. Overall speaking, C.Ronaldo wins by quite a margin.
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Agree with that. Shame L Ronaldo got such bad injuries in his career, wasn't the same after:
https://www.fourfourtwo.com/performance/training/ronaldos-kneecap-exploded-it-was-his-thigh
https://www.fourfourtwo.com/performance/training/ronaldos-kneecap-exploded-it-was-his-thigh
I believe that if you have to compare R9 and CR7 by goals, at least factor in the goal inflation in La Liga and Serie A. Just compare the goals per season ofnthe top teams in the 90s with those in the late 00s/10s. Scoring 30 for a team that scores 50 is different to scoring 30 for a team that scores 100.
Of course.
Though, these type of players are a big reason why teams score more goals in the first place, RM went from scoring 150 goals a year, to around 100 after Ronaldo left, they lost pretty much exactly his goal contribution.
1 year later and we have Bruno
Yes, both team and individual goal output obviously correlate. Still, during R9's time, it wasn't unusual for even the best Serie A teams to finish their seasons with ~45. La Liga teams maybe 60 IIRC. That's a whole different story to the goal inflation we've seen in the last 15 years or so. This is important context. R9's Barcelona season e. g. was unreal for those days' standards.
“Better peak”.
Where do Morrison and Wilson rank against CR7/R9 in terms of potential?
Anyway, CR7 > R9 and it's not even close. He and Messi have been undoubtedly the best players in the world for over a decade... That's longer than R9's meaningful career and he wasn't 'the best' for that period either
Anyway, CR7 > R9 and it's not even close. He and Messi have been undoubtedly the best players in the world for over a decade... That's longer than R9's meaningful career and he wasn't 'the best' for that period either
Some replies here make no sense at all.
Some people are comparing the "what if" version of R9 to a CR7 that done pretty much everything.
R9 was an incredible player with an incredible potential, but based on achievements, impact on the game / trophies won, CR7 steamrolls R9 by a big margin. The only thing that R9 has that CR7 probably won't achieve is the World Cup.
Maybe things could have been different if he didn't get injured, maybe it would have been different if R9 played in this era, but they aren't.
Comparing a player for what he could have been vs a player that achieved almost everything that he could achieve multiple times isn't really realistic.
Some people are comparing the "what if" version of R9 to a CR7 that done pretty much everything.
R9 was an incredible player with an incredible potential, but based on achievements, impact on the game / trophies won, CR7 steamrolls R9 by a big margin. The only thing that R9 has that CR7 probably won't achieve is the World Cup.
Maybe things could have been different if he didn't get injured, maybe it would have been different if R9 played in this era, but they aren't.
Comparing a player for what he could have been vs a player that achieved almost everything that he could achieve multiple times isn't really realistic.
Maybe that's not the determining factor for other people. I find that logic pretty flawed.
Who is doing that? People are talking about the peak version of R9. The one playing for Barca and Inter. And I think that version of R9 was better than the best version of CR7.
If we were talking about the "what if" version of R9, this would be a completely different conversation since R9 is pretty much universally seen as the greatest talent this sport has ever produced. Trickery of (almost) Ronaldinho, dribbling of Messi, efficiency of CR7, strength like Drogba and pace that hadn't been witnessed before or ever since.
And the angels rejoiced!1 year later and we have Bruno
Seriously, a very good find! Bruno and to a degree Rashford. A lot can happen in a year!As great as the fat Ronaldo was, even at his peak he doesn't touch Cristiano's numbers...
Better peak: Cristiano and it ain't particularly close.
Better career: Cristiano and it ain't close.
Better career: Cristiano and it ain't close.
CR7 has dragged a much inferior Portugal team to Nations League and European Champions success.
Nobody who has seen both at their best would ever say that. Luis Ronaldo was something else in the late 90s.
I have seen both of them at their best. Luis Ronaldo is a combination of nostalgia and 'what could have been'. One of the GOATs, who won one league title in Europe (playing for PSV, Barca, Inter, Real and Milan), reached only once semis of UCL, and scored less goals in UCL than Gabriel Jesus.
A good player and the best in the world for a couple of years, but his peak is absurdly mythicized and his career is nowhere as good as some of the other GOATs.
Cristiano, without question. But I wonder how different this conclusion would be had Ronaldo was his peak self in the 1998 WC final v France.