Rooney, Ronaldo, Tevez

[stevoc]

I also think that Tevez was overrated. Didn’t he also sit on the bench quite often and was not playing that much?

I loved him his first season. But in his second season he looked heavier and while he still put a shift in he just wasn't as good or to me looked as interested. He spent most of that 2nd season moping and his output wasn't great.

Personally I suspect his move to City had been sorted out quite early in that season after the Arabs took over in September 2008. There seemed to be a lot of drama generated in the media about will/won't United sign him and why haven't they signed him yet, who knows who was driving that. When the truth is we could only sign him permanently once his 2 year loan had finished.

 

[Ekeke]

Tevez was better after he left. He was the least effective when the 3 played together, but would probably have found his feet like he did at City if we made the move permanent. Certainly a lot better than Berbatov who we replaced him with. I think Rossi, who moved on when we went for Tevez would have done better too.

 

[stevoc]

I loved Berbatov, but the most disappointing thing about his signing was how little we saw these three play together after he joined.

They started 1 game together in the Champions League. We best Arsenal 1-0 at home.

They started together once in the Club World Cup. That was the final against LDU Quito in which we won 1-0.

They didn't start any games together in the domestic cups.

In the league:
0-0 away to Villa
0-1 victory away to Stoke
1-4 lost at home to Liverpool
0-0 at home to Arsenal. The "Fergie sign him up" game.

So, all in all, they only started 6 games together. That's incredibly disappointing when you consider how good they were together in just the previous season.

My favourite game of that season was the 5-2 against Spurs where we played Ronaldo, Rooney, Tevez and Berbatov all together in the 2nd half. They were electric together that half!

I was lucky enough to be sat in the scoreboard end for that match. It's the best half of football I think I've ever seen live or otherwise. We just steamrolled them, there was nothing they could do.

 

[Malkovich]

Tevez and Rooney is as close you are going to get in terms of 2 players excelling in same areas, having same body type and gritty style. I always find it unbalanced to have 2 “clones” as attacking partners

 

[stevoc]

The thing it's that he clearly wanted to be signed after his first season, we all know that if a Club really wants sthg. it's doable with any type of contract. After that season the situation got really grey and uncomfortable for him.
He played quite less quantity of minutes (and even less games) in the Premier League and the reading from his side was that they wanted to devalue his position in order to pay him less. Right or wrong, truth or not his reading, paranoid or not, that situation could have been managed better if Fergie (and the Club) really wanted him badly and give him full first team status inmediatly after his first season. He certainly felt himself in a worse situation when Fergie went after Berba.

The Tevez and Rooney partnership was sthg to not mess with it, it was the sort of understanding that rarely happens and more with two very similar players in style, atributes and attitude in the pitch. The scenario became worse when he ended adding the last ingredient for City to become a real threat, the whole situation of changing the type of approach of the team and the strength he gave to City, clearly changed the path of both clubs, it doesn't matter if Carlos ain't Maradona, it just happened and could have been avoided.

All things said, Carlos is Carlos and even if he was giving a proper first team contract after his first season, he more than probably at some point get bored and leave Man Utd all of a sudden, he is really hard to manage and more with Kia and co. behind him.
And like you've said, he would talk/complain to anyone, he won't even care if it's Fergie or whomever and that won't sit well with such a legendary coach. At the end of the day it's sad that all the parts couldn't manage the whole thing better.

United couldn't sign him in 2008. Gill and Ferguson confirmed this back then. The terms of his loan agreement were 2 years, which his owner received a massive fee for, at the end of which United had the option to buy him for £25m. We didn't have the option to trigger that after 1 year as Kia whatshisname would have lost out on a years loan fee amounting to 5-6 million.

 

[stevoc]

He played less games, but more than that, he played quiet less minutes and he read that stuff like a way to buy him with at a lower cost.

Anyway we can't fault Fergie if that was his idea because he didn't rate him that much, it's his prefference, but Carlos was Carlos since his debut, not a fella that won't talk, protest or do whatever he felt he wanted, wrong or right.

He made more appearances for United that season than everyone bar I think bar Vidic and Ronaldo.

 

[Fobal]

He made more appearances for United that season than everyone bar I think bar Vidic and Ronaldo.

I don't know in correlation with other players, but more than appearences, he played less minutes than his prior one, that's what I've meant and he took that right or wrong, badly.

 

[Fobal]

United couldn't sign him in 2008. Gill and Ferguson confirmed this back then. The terms of his loan agreement were 2 years, which his owner received a massive fee for, at the end of which United had the option to buy him for £25m. We didn't have the option to trigger that after 1 year as Kia whatshisname would have lost out on a years loan fee amounting to 5-6 million.

There were many issues there, many parts moving messing everything up, yet when there is a trully intention to do sthg. every part moves in that direction. Kia was quite a mercenary that Carlos gave too much power, but it never seemed that Fergie really wanted Tevez to stay there as much as some of his teammates. Sometimes things are not going to happen, but it's sad in plain football terms that things ended so badly.
Like it was said before, it's not common to have two players of the calibre of Wazza and Carlitos to gel so well and with the right big club and winning attitude. Shyte happens.

 

[Overhaul FC]

This was my favourite United front 3 that I have seen. It had everything. Power, pace, tenacity, goals, assists, amazing touches and ball retention. They would strangle the shit out of the opposition defence with no time to rest at all.

I don't think I'll see another 3 like Ronaldo, Tevez and Rooney again.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I liked how Tevez ran, like a rabid shetland pony

 

[Yagami]

I can't ever hate Tevez despite all the shit he did

I'm the same. I mean, I can totally understand those who have no time for him anymore, but he was one of my favourite players whilst here, and a key player in one of the best teams we've ever had. I have too many fond memories of him during his time here.

It also helps that I think he still speaks glowingly about us in general. He loved Rooney, and there was an interview he did where they talking about Pirlo and Tevez still said Scholes was the best midfielder he's played with.

I was lucky enough to be sat in the scoreboard end for that match. It's the best half of football I think I've ever seen live or otherwise. We just steamrolled them, there was nothing they could do.

I can't lie; I'm jealous! That game would probably be in my top 5 games I would've loved to have seen live.

 

[stevoc]

I don't know in correlation with other players, but more than appearences, he played less minutes than his prior one, that's what I've meant and he took that right or wrong, badly.

The minutes weren't that different between the seasons. He actually made more appearances in 08-09 that the season before though.

There were many issues there, many parts moving messing everything up, yet when there is a trully intention to do sthg. every part moves in that direction. Kia was quite a mercenary that Carlos gave too much power, but it never seemed that Fergie really wanted Tevez to stay there as much as some of his teammates. Sometimes things are not going to happen, but it's sad in plain football terms that things ended so badly.
Like it was said before, it's not common to have two players of the calibre of Wazza and Carlitos to gel so well and with the right big club and winning attitude. Shyte happens.

United signed him on a 2 year loan in 2007 with the option to sign him for £25m in 2009 when his loan ended. United offered up the £25m in 2009 as agreed but Carlos and his owner chose the money on offer form City instead. Not sure what else Unted could have done.

Tevez wasn't a world class player for United and I suspect he would have never reached the level he did at City playing 2nd fiddle to Rooney had he stayed at United. He wasn't the most professional off the pitch to say the least and by the summer of 2009 I think Fergie wanted him but wasn't fussed he left either as he was a bit of a drama queen.

 

[stevoc]

I'm the same. I mean, I can totally understand those who have no time for him anymore, but he was one of my favourite players whilst here, and a key player in one of the best teams we've ever had. I have too many fond memories of him during his time here.

It also helps that I think he still speaks glowingly about us in general. He loved Rooney, and there was an interview he did where they talking about Pirlo and Tevez still said Scholes was the best midfielder he's played with.


I can't lie; I'm jealous! That game would probably be in my top 5 games I would've loved to have seen live.

It was unreal. I went with a mate who hates Spurs he was gutted at half time and tried to leave. I wasn't having it and I'm glad I stayed.

We haven't had that type of attacking power since those days. That's the level I hope to see us back at someday.

 

[Fobal]

The minutes weren't that different between the seasons. He actually made more appearances in 08-09 that the season before though.



United signed him on a 2 year loan in 2007 with the option to sign him for £25m in 2009 when his loan ended. United offered up the £25m in 2009 as agreed but Carlos and his owner chose the money on offer form City instead. Not sure what else Unted could have done.

Tevez wasn't a world class player for United and I suspect he would have never reached the level he did at City playing 2nd fiddle to Rooney had he stayed at United. He wasn't the most professional off the pitch to say the least and by the summer of 2009 I think Fergie wanted him but wasn't fussed he left either as he was a bit of a drama queen.

There number of minutes were quite different, not massive, but not a little difference.

Carlos asked to be signed after his first season and accelerate the process and Fergie told him what you are saying, to wait to the end of the loan while adding that he would go for Berbatov, not the best of moves, maybe another less high profile forward wouldn't be that much of a bad sign for Carlos.
Later Berbatov arrived and played more minutes than him (not a lot much, but more anyway), so he felt what I've said before, that they were putting lots of money (at the time) for a new high profile player instead of first assure him his first team status. And in the meantime, let's not be naif, try to keep the original ammount or even lower it if Carlos does not participate more like it should have been after what he did in his first season and without Cron in the team. To add things to the mix, Fergie neither gave full trsut to Berba in some ocassions, to turn things even greyer.

Like you've said Fergie didn't wanted him that badly, it's his prerrogative, even if wanting him, but do not act surpirse if thinsg end badly with a fella of the charcater of Carlos, he is not "yEs Boss" Neville type.
Fergie always tend to get things like he liked it and that situation infuriated him, more when Tevez ended in fecking City, that's why I always felt he didn't read well with whom he was dealing, for the good and bad, because like you've said, even buying him would not assure a smooth relationship, Carlos could have end badly in Man Utd too, but trsut me he really loved his Man Utd days even today, maybe that's why he took it so badly.

Yet all in all it was a turning point, for Man Utd and for City that if Fergie played his cards more wisely (and listened more to his lockeroom, specially Wazza), that if Carlos wasn't as stubborn as he is and didn't let Kia to be so important, things could have ended etter.
I trully think that without Cron in the team and with the relationship Rooney had with him, they would have done great, no matter if Wayne would have kept the number one spot. Tevez whole Robin approach, second fiddle was in order to gain that contract, the Carlos from Boca, Corinthians and post Man Utd teams, would have been there. I think that even this last aspect made it worse, that he let his big ego aside (maybe the only tiem in his whole carreer) for his first season with Man Utd and he never felt comfortable, nor THAT wanted, while not receiving the best signs in his second one. Shyte happens

 

[Glorio]

He made more appearances for United that season than everyone bar I think bar Vidic and Ronaldo.

"Appearances" can be misleading though. Amad has had loads of appearances since his return from injury for instance. I think his starts in important games took a drastic nosedive. Might be wrong, but it's the feeling I get

 

[stevoc]

"Appearances" can be misleading though. Amad has had loads of appearances since his return from injury for instance. I think his starts in important games took a drastic nosedive. Might be wrong, but it's the feeling I get

Not really though in this case though. He played 51 times that season. I can't remember the exact number but he made 36-38 starts. When you're competing with Rooney, Ronaldo, Berbativ and Nani that's pretty good. I think he started the same or more games that Berbatov.

 

[stevoc]

There number of minutes were quite different, not massive, butt not a little difference.

Carlos asked to be signed after his first season and accelerate the process and Fergie told him what you are saying, to wait to the end of the loan while adding that he would go for Berbatov, not the ebst of moves, maybe another less high profile forward wouldn't be that much of a bad sign for Carlos.
Later Berbatov arrived and played more minutes than him (not a lot much, but more anyway), so he felt what I've said before, that they were putting lots of money (at the time) for a new high profile player instead of first assure him his first team status. And in the meantime, let's not be naif, try to keep the original ammount or even lower it if Carlos does not participate more like it should have been after what he did in his first season and without Cron in the team. To add things to the mix, Fergie neither gave full trsut to Berba in some ocassions, to turn things even greyer.

Which wasn't possible within the contract United signed. If United tried to re-negotiate the contract Kia likely would have asked for more than the already agreed £25m. Why would United want to do that, it'd have been a stupid business move.

Like you've said Fergie didn't wanted him that badly, it's his prerrogative, even if wanting him, but do not act surpirse if thinsg end badly with a fella of the charcater of Carlos, he is not "yEs Boss" Neville type.

Fergie always tend to get things like he liked it and that situation infuriated him, more when Tevez ended in fecking City, that's why I always felt he didn't read well with whom he was dealing, for the good and bad, because like you've said, even buying him would not assure a smooth relationship, Carlos could have end badly in Man Utd too, but trsut me he really loved his Man Utd days even today, maybe that's why he took it so badly.

Yeah he's a Twat.

Yet all in all it was a turning point, for Man Utd and for City that if Fergie played his cards more wisely (and listened more to his lockeroom, specially Wazza), that if Carlos wasn't as stubborn as he is and didn't let Kia to be so important, things could have ended etter.
I trully think that without Cron in the team and with the relationship Rooney had with him, they would have done great, no matter if Wayne would have kept the number one spot. Tevez whole Robin approach, second fiddle was in order to gain that contract, the Carlos from Boca, Corinthians and post Man Utd teams, would have been there. I think that even this last aspect made it worse, that he let his big ego aside (maybe the only tiem in his whole carreer) for his first season with Man Utd and he never felt comfortable, nor THAT wanted, while not receiving the best signs in his second one. Shyte happens

I think he was alright in the end not listening to Rooney. He didn't do too badly towards the end of his career.

 

[Fobal]

Not really though in this case though. He played 51 times that season. I can't remember the exact number but he made 36-38 starts. When you're competing with Rooney, Ronaldo, Berbativ and Nani that's pretty good. I think he started the same or more games that Berbatov.

Just to use transfermarket, that BTW isn't precisly the bible:

Tevez in EPL 07/08: 2684 min.
Tevez in EPL 08/09: 1861 min.

Berbatov in EPL 08/09: 2543 min.

And this is not taking in account at what moment he entered the pitch, from the start, or later, in what games, with whom around or when he was replaced and all the nuances that sends messages to any player of his consideration from the manager.

The thing is simple, Carlos for ONCE played the good obedient guy his first season, the Robin Warrior fella, knowing his place.
After it, when he asked to accelerate things to be bought, loan or not loan, he was told to wait and in the meantime United bought for a very high fee in those days Berba and gave the new fella, while he still was on LOAN, more minutes than him. Carlos probably wouldn't have much of an issue if they've signed him and afterwards signed Berba (even if he more than probaly would read it as a sign too of his status with Alex), but keeping him on loan at the same time? come on, Carlos it's not Angel Correa, it's not Ole, that was a recipe for a bad ending right there.

This wouldn't sit well with anyone, but wayyyyyyyyyy less with Carlos that almost forced West Ham to play him, that gain a place in Boca at 18, that played against his very own teammates and the whole League in Corinthians, literally fighting on every match and training...that's not a card you play with this calibre of player and type of personality without understanding that your play, might end badly no matter if you are fecking Sir Alex.
There is no problem if Sir Alex didn't think that much of him as a player, but he can't be surprise at how things ended.

Carlos it's not a saint, Carlos would more than probaly got bored and left United badly if he stayed, he could have even end fighting with Fergie at some point like he did with almost EVERY coach he had, but United at that moment changed the philosophy behind the type of players they went after and because of Carlos ego and not give a fvck about anything, reinforcing City giving the last ingredient to finally become a real competitor.

 

[Fobal]

Which wasn't possible within the contract United signed. If United tried to re-negotiate the contract Kia likely would have asked for more than the already agreed £25m. Why would United want to do that, it'd have been a stupid business move.



Yeah he's a Twat.



I think he was alright in the end not listening to Rooney. He didn't do too badly towards the end of his career.

Exactly, he tried to buy him on the low and wait till the last minute of the loan while giving every wrong message with new signings

If you think that Carlos wasn't worthy more than 25 Millions, it's your view, but he certainly was, twat or not twat.

 

[stevoc]

Just to use transfermarket, that BTW isn't precisly the bible:

Tevez in EPL 07/08: 2684 min.
Tevez in EPL 08/09: 1861 min.

Berbatov in EPL 08/09: 2543 min.

And this is not taking in account at what moment he entered the pitch, from the start, or later, in what games, with whom around or when he was replaced and all the nuances that sends messages to any player of his consideration from the manager.

People get too hung up on minutes played. Playing 70 moniutes vs Liverpool is a better indicator of your manager having faith in you than 90 minutes vs Hartlepool in the League cup.

The thing is simple, Carlos for ONCE played the good obedient guy his first season, the Robin Warrior fella, knowing his place.
After it, when he asked to accelerate things to be bought, loan or not loan, he was told to wait and in the meantime United bought for a very high fee in those days Berba and gave the new fella, while he still was on LOAN, more minutes than him. Carlos probably wouldn't have much of an issue if they've signed him and afterwards signed Berba (even if he more than probaly would read it as a sign too of his status with Alex), but keeping him on loan at the same time? come on, Carlos it's not Angel Correa, it's not Ole, that was a recipe for a bad ending right there.

This wouldn't sit well with anyone, but wayyyyyyyyyy less with Carlos that almost forced West Ham to play him, that gain a place in Boca at 18, that played against his very own teammates and the whole League in Corinthians, literally fighting on every match and training...that's not a card you play with this calibre of player and type of personality without understanding that your play, might end badly no matter if you are fecking Sir Alex.
There is no problem if Sir Alex didn't think that much of him as a player, but he can't be surprise at how things ended.

Carlos it's not a saint, Carlos would more than probaly got bored and left United badly if he stayed, he could have even end fighting with Fergie at some point like he did with almost EVERY coach he had, but United at that moment changed the philosophy behind the type of players they went after and because of Carlos ego and not give a fvck about anything, reinforcing City giving the last ingredient to finally become a real competitor.

Tevez could ask for whatever he likes but the fact is it wasn't an option to make the deal permanent in 2008. End of story really.

Personal opinion not based on any facts but I think Kia and Abu Dhabi were angling to move Carlos to City in early 2008 which explains Kia's involvement in their takeover of City, seems strange they'd pick him out of all the football agents in the world. They wanted a statement signing and they new they couldn't sign any United players but knew United didn'town Tevez.

 

[stevoc]

Exactly, he tried to buy him on the low and wait till the last minute of the loan while giving every wrong message with new signings

No the club tried to buy him at the agreed price per the terms of a contract that both parties signed.

If you think that Carlos wasn't worthy more than 25 Millions, it's your view, but he certainly was, twat or not twat.

Not in 2008 he wasn't and certainly not in 2009 after the average season he had. I'll remind you that circa 2008 the world record fee for a player was £49m, the British record was £30m. Tevez wasn't worth anywhere near the £47m City paid for him, he was a terrible investment as they ended up selling him for a quarter of that only a few years later due to his antics and unprofessionalism, he went awol for nearly a year at one point. I'm delighted United never signed him permanently, we dodged a bullet.

 

[Fobal]

People get too hung up on minutes played. Playing 70 moniutes vs Liverpool is a better indicator of your manager having faith in you than 90 minutes vs Hartlepool in the League cup.



Tevez could ask for whatever he likes but the fact is it wasn't an option to make the deal permanent in 2008. End of story really.

Personal opinion not based on any facts but I think Kia and Abu Dhabi were angling to move Carlos to City in early 2008 which explains Kia's involvement in their takeover of City, seems strange they'd pick him out of all the football agents in the world. They wanted a statement signing and they new they couldn't sign any United players but knew United didn'town Tevez.

It's not about people, it's about him talking about how much bothered him. It was a significant ammount of minutes less with him still on loan and a new kid on the block bought with a record transfer.

End of story? contracts are rearranged constantly, Fergie bet to buy him on the low and try Berba as main guy and keep Carlos as backup, could have worked? maybe with other type of personalities, not with Carlos, anyone could see that.

No the club tried to buy him at the agreed price per the terms of a contract that both parties signed.

Not in 2008 he wasn't and certainly not in 2009 after the average season he had. I'll remind you that circa 2008 the world record fee for a player was £49m, the British record was £30m. Tevez wasn't worth anywhere near the £47m City paid for him, he was a terrible investment as they ended up selling him for a quarter of that only a few years later due to his antics and unprofessionalism, he went awol for nearly a year at one point. I'm delighted United never signed him permanently, we dodged a bullet.

There was a whole season with less minutes, a new player in the team with a record transfer, that scenario obviously would affect everything.

Plus his second season was far from abysmal given the scenario, neither Berba was ubber outstanding, so for a player like Carlos to at the end of the year sit like nothing happened, it was clearly a bad reading, or expecting those fellas like Kia to not try to make a move, even more naif.

More than probably Man Utd wouldn't had to pay 47 millions if things were sealed after the first season, loan or not loan, Carlos really wanted to stay, even today after all that happened, he talks only great things about Man Utd even being a City great and right or wrong he simply stated that he was really pissed off with Fergie.
City had lots of bucks, Kia knew that, and they paid that sum more than probably to totally avoid loosing him like they lost Berba to Man Utd.

Even with his problems with Mancini, included the silly Bayern stuff that everyone wrongly bought and now we all know it wasn't as portraited by the media and Mancini himself. Him in a very Carlos style didn't even try to clarify or seek support from his teammates or witnesses.
At the end of the day Tevez put that team on the map, or better said, he was one of main and vital ingredients to do it, so nowadays it's hard to see it as a bad investment for them at all. While there is a reason that even today many Man Utd fans have nostalgia about how that team played, mostly because it was an special combination in terms of personalities and type of players involved that connects better with Man Utd as club and what expects from its players in the pitch.

It's true that we never know with Carlos, but he certainly after that first season was on Juve mode, more than Boca, Timao or City where for different reasons he was way more problematic outside of the pitch.

 

[stevoc]

It's not about people, it's about him talking about how much bothered him. It was a significant ammount of minutes less with him still on loan and a new kid on the block bought with a record transfer.

End of story? contracts are rearranged constantly, Fergie bet to buy him on the low and try Berba as main guy and keep Carlos as backup, could have worked? maybe with other type of personalities, not with Carlos, anyone could see that.

What do you mean low?

£25m would have been an enormous fee circa 2008. Why would United renegotiate a contract that was already agreed and risk having to pay more? That makes no sense.

 

[statpadder]

@Fobal Why do I get the feeling you’re wasting your time?

It was clear as day what was going on. Fergie didn’t want to sign Tevez because the glazers had a firm grip on the finances and 25m at that time was too much. Fergie was also against third party ownership as he showed multiple times including declining the 7m payment. to Hazard’s agent.

Tevez was not given any assurances that United would sign him in 08-09. He was kept in the dark and was actually pushed down the pecking order. How do you expect someone so passionate to behave? All these players like Neville coming and saying Tevez downed tools - he was a loanee who was indirectly told he wouldn’t be part of the team next season. It was expected.

He still gave his all on the pitch. That’s why the fans used to chant “sign him up” and that probably changed Fergies mind but it was too late by then. Tevez was a lot concerned about moving his family from Manchester but by that time City were giving him everything Utd weren’t. Easy decision. I don’t blame Tevez one bit (until that point ofc).

 

[Frank Grimes]

The Rooney, Ronaldo, Saha combo worked much better. Mainly because Rooney and Tevez were quite similar players who liked to occupy similar positions.

 

[Fobal]

@Fobal Why do I get the feeling you’re wasting your time?

It was clear as day what was going on. Fergie didn’t want to sign Tevez because the glazers had a firm grip on the finances and 25m at that time was too much. Fergie was also against third party ownership as he showed multiple times including declining the 7m payment. to Hazard’s agent.

Tevez was not given any assurances that United would sign him in 08-09. He was kept in the dark and was actually pushed down the pecking order. How do you expect someone so passionate to behave? All these players like Neville coming and saying Tevez downed tools - he was a loanee who was indirectly told he wouldn’t be part of the team next season. It was expected.

He still gave his all on the pitch. That’s why the fans used to chant “sign him up” and that probably changed Fergies mind but it was too late by then. Tevez was a lot concerned about moving his family from Manchester but by that time City were giving him everything Utd weren’t. Easy decision. I don’t blame Tevez one bit (until that point ofc).

Hi man, nah we are just talking, in fact I agree with many points stevoc said, with even more from yours, but since I know the player better than most here and his actuall opinions (right or not, truth or not) on the matter, I was just giving an input.
At the end of the day I feel everyone just failed in the timing of the situation and manage of their own ego, or even better said, self pride.

I agree with your assessment but the main thing I wanted to talked about it's regarding how after so many years of that situation, that even goes beyond Fergie and Carlos, those days ended beinng a turning point for both Manchester Clubs and how the repercusions of certain decisions taken in those Golden years, the profile of players/coaches from both teams changed even till today.

The thing it's it has been a bit derrailed with opinions about certain points, but I dunno think to a point were anyone has been a dick or annoying

 

[Fobal]

What do you mean low?

£25m would have been an enormous fee circa 2008. Why would United renegotiate a contract that was already agreed and risk having to pay more? That makes no sense.

Come on Stevoc, you get my point, of course not low per se, yet both know that Kia and Tevez would ask to the very least a bit more if the negotiated at that point, for sure not 47 millions, that was just the New City owners being sqeezed by Kia using what he already had in his hands and the prior Berba affair.

And it's exactly that risk you feel that made no sense to pay more, one of the things what Carlos read as not being fully appreciated as a player and in addition paying such a sum for Berba and the "trust me bro" enviroment that he had to deal during that second season.

Like Stapadder just said, we don't have to drag this into details we both have a diff opnion and even more, we both have very diff opinions regarding the quality, or calibre of the player involved.

All I wanted to say it's that whatever the details, it was managed by both parties not precisly in the best way and mainly that I trully believe it was a turning point for both Clubs that could have been great for Man Utd (yet we don't know like you've said before, with the type of characters involved if it could turn into a battle of egos between them at some point), yet it certainly was for City to finally make the transtition to a Club with the right tools to challenge for real the traditional big boys.

 

[stevoc]

Come on Stevoc, you get my point, of course not low per se, yet both know that Kia and Tevez would ask to the very least a bit more if the negotiated at that point, for sure not 47 millions, that was just the New City owners being sqeezed by Kia using what he already had in his hands and the prior Berba affair.

And it's exactly that risk you feel that made no sense to pay more, one of the things what Carlos read as not being fully appreciated as a player and in addition paying such a sum for Berba and the "trust me bro" enviroment that he had to deal during that second season.

Like Stapadder just said, we don't have to drag this into details we both have a diff opnion and even more, we both have very diff opinions regarding the quality, or calibre of the player involved.

All I wanted to say it's that whatever the details, it was managed by both parties not precisly in the best way and mainly that I trully believe it was a turning point for both Clubs that could have been great for Man Utd (yet we don't know like you've said before, with the type of characters involved if it could turn into a battle of egos between them at some point), yet it certainly was for City to finally make the transtition to a Club with the right tools to challenge for real the traditional big boys.

You know that for sure do you? Kia helped Abu Dhabi with the City takeover in the summer of 2008. You don't think they'd already had talks about Tevez and the type of money they'd offer him to move Tevex there instead? Of course they did.

Ultimately here's the facts. United signed a player in 2007 on a 2 year loan, in that agreement they had the option once the loan ended in 2009 to make that deal permanent for what would have been circa 2008-09 a very large fee of £25.5m. United put the money up in 2009 but Tevez and his owner had already been promised a double your Oil money deal and reneged on the agreement. There would have been simply no reason for United to want to accelerate that timeline and risk paying more. It wouldn't make business sense.

 

[Fobal]

You knwo that for sure do you? Kia helped Abu Dhabi with the City takeover in the summer of 2008. You don't think they'd already had talks about Tevez and the type of money they'd offer him to move Tevex there instead? Of course they did.

Ultimately here's the facts. United signed a player in 2007 on a 2 year loan, in that agreement they had the option once the loan ended in 2009 to make that deal permanent for what would have been circa 2008-09 a very large fee of £25.5m. United put the money up in 2009 but Tevez and his owner had already been promised a double your Oil money deal and reneged on the agreement. There would have been simply no reason for United to want to accelerate that timeline and risk paying more. It wouldn't make business sense.

Maybe, but that's sthg very common in football, not every bizness that might be more sensible from a financial point of view it's the best option for the team on the pitch or even as bet for the future, of course those bets can end very bad too.
At the end of the day, you have to read better the enviroment, the counterpart, if you actually want to close a deal under those circumnstances. There wasn't such level of interest and that's the main reason why everything fell apart and Carlos made everything worse when the deal went down and he went for the town rivals (even worse when winning there with his celebrations).

Anyway, this thread needs more vids of plays than us talking about Fergie's and Carlo's failed negotiations.

 

[stevoc]

@Fobal Why do I get the feeling you’re wasting your time?

It was clear as day what was going on. Fergie didn’t want to sign Tevez because the glazers had a firm grip on the finances and 25m at that time was too much. Fergie was also against third party ownership as he showed multiple times including declining the 7m payment. to Hazard’s agent.

Tevez was not given any assurances that United would sign him in 08-09. He was kept in the dark and was actually pushed down the pecking order.

Around that time we paid £30m for Berbatov, £25m for Rooney, £20+m for Nani and Anderson. So how would £25m have been too much for United?

Hazard had nothing to do with 3rd party ownership.

Why would Tevez have been given assurances in 2008 when United's option to buy him permanently couldn't be triggered unitl 2009?

How do you expect someone so passionate to behave? All these players like Neville coming and saying Tevez downed tools - he was a loanee who was indirectly told he wouldn’t be part of the team next season. It was expected.

He still gave his all on the pitch. That’s why the fans used to chant “sign him up” and that probably changed Fergies mind but it was too late by then. Tevez was a lot concerned about moving his family from Manchester but by that time City were giving him everything Utd weren’t. Easy decision. I don’t blame Tevez one bit (until that point ofc).

Like a professional or at least like an adult perhaps.

Yeah Tevez was concerned about moving away from Manchester he hated the place and never stopped moaning about it.

Tevez said then: "There's nothing to do in Manchester. There's two restaurants and everything's small. It rains all the time. You can't go anywhere. There comes a moment where you say 'Where am I going to go with my family?' and you begin to feel bad.

"Of course, one trains, plays, does things, and when the family or friends come one feels bad and you can't take them to the movies because they don't understand anything. I will not return to Manchester, not for a vacation, not anything."

 

[statpadder]

Around that time we paid £30m for Berbatov, £25m for Rooney, £20+m for Nani and Anderson. So how would £25m have been too much for United?

Aren’t we all talking about the year after? The year in which we let Tevez and Ronaldo go. How much money did we spend then? Is it not a known fact that the purse strings were tightened by that time? Do you not remember the “No value in the market” era? Have you started following Utd recently?

Hazard had nothing to do with 3rd party ownership.

Chelsea paid 6m to his agent.

https://tribuna.com/en/news/manutd-...d-didnt-sign-hazard-before-he-joined-chelsea/

Like a professional or at least like an adult perhaps.

Being a professional = giving your maximum effort on the field. He was certainly doing that. Even when he came on for his final game in the CL final (you know the one which our record signing didn’t even start)

Yeah Tevez was concerned about moving away from Manchester he hated the place and never stopped moaning about it.

The reason I was advising Fobal not to waste his time is because you’re being disingenuous in your arguments. The quotes you have shared are from 2011/12 when Tevez was at City. We are talking about 08/09 and at that time, the reason Carlos wasn’t going to Chelsea or anywhere else was because he was settled in Manchester.

It’s okay if you’ve made up your mind to hate Tevez. He was a cnut afterwards but as a Utd player, I have nothing but respect for him. Being called a headless chicken for chasing lost causes - how I would kill to have someone like that today.

 

[stevoc]

Aren’t we all talking about the year after? The year in which we let Tevez and Ronaldo go. How much money did we spend then? Is it not a known fact that the purse strings were tightened by that time? Do you not remember the “No value in the market” era? Have you started following Utd recently?

The club agreed to pay the £25m to sign Tevez, confirmed by Gill and Ferguson. So yes we could afford to sign Tevez.

Chelsea paid 6m to his agent.

https://tribuna.com/en/news/manutd-...d-didnt-sign-hazard-before-he-joined-chelsea/

This wasn't anything to do with 3rd party ownership though.

Being a professional = giving your maximum effort on the field. He was certainly doing that. Even when he came on for his final game in the CL final (you know the one which our record signing didn’t even start)

It's preferable for players to be professional on and off the pitch.

The reason I was advising Fobal not to waste his time is because you’re being disingenuous in your arguments. The quotes you have shared are from 2011/12 when Tevez was at City. We are talking about 08/09 and at that time, the reason Carlos wasn’t going to Chelsea or anywhere else was because he was settled in Manchester.

So he loved Manchester in 2009 but hated it with a passion 2 years later.

But I'm being disingenuous. Ok.

It’s okay if you’ve made up your mind to hate Tevez. He was a cnut afterwards but as a Utd player, I have nothing but respect for him. Being called a headless chicken for chasing lost causes - how I would kill to have someone like that today.

I don't 'hate' Tevez I'm just sick of all the nonsense and myths surrounding his time at the club.

He joined on a 2 year loan with an option to buy and was good for us in 2008, very good in fact and majorly contributed to one of the clubs best ever seasons. The season after not so good but still very decent. And then he chose to not to sign permanently as he got a more lucrative offer elsewhere. Those are the facts.


So we don't need to agonise on what might have been or who did him wrong or who was to blame. He's a grown man and made his own choices.

 

[Irwin99]

My memory of Tevez was that he was pretty much dropped for Berbatov, who didn't have a great season, and that led to some sulking on his part. A lot of fans actually backed Tevez and preferred him in the starting line-up but it seemed Berbatov was first choice, at least for the first half of the season iirc.

Worth noting our goals scored that season in the league dropped a fair bit, as did overall performances as we tried to get Berbatov settled. Our defence was so ridiculously strong that we got away with a lot of 1-0 wins and really crappy performances.

 

[Lay]

Berbatov didn't fit but Fergie wanted a tall player with a shorter one upfront. Tevez should have been kept but he was clearly unhappy at his role.

Fergie also later said he wasn't worth £25m which was silly in hindsight

I always wanted Tevez at United and was really happy he joined. He was absolutely crucial for one in his first season, scoring a lot of winners and equalisers. He also stayed on the pitch in the UCL final and it was Rooney who came off.

 

[Kush]

Berbatov signing was not needed at all, it disturbed our best and most potent trio at the time. Tevez behaved like a massive twat once he was out of the club but he was a fan favorite in first season, displayed the type of desire and commitment which not many forwards have. I also feel he was underrated in his time here, by Fergie too, as he signed Berbatov which meant Tevez became a rotational forward. I think if Berbatov's signing doesn't happen, Tevez plays a lot of football, isn't on bench for every big game in 08/09 and signs permanently for us at end of that season.

 

[nakpodiareuben]

By far the best attack I have seen us have. Allowing Tevez go because of Berbatov was criminal. People then was saying Tevez and Rooney were similar kind of players hence why he left. Well, When we won the champions league, Tevez played all 120mins plus penalty.

 

[statpadder]

The club agreed to pay the £25m to sign Tevez, confirmed by Gill and Ferguson. So yes we could afford to sign Tevez.

I don't 'hate' Tevez I'm just sick of all the nonsense and myths surrounding his time at the club.

He joined on a 2 year loan with an option to buy and was good for us in 2008, very good in fact and majorly contributed to one of the clubs best ever seasons. The season after not so good but still very decent. And then he chose to not to sign permanently as he got a more lucrative offer elsewhere. Those are the facts.

The facts are:

1. We were not willing to buy Tevez for 25m because we didn’t think he was worth that.

https://amp.theguardian.com/football/2009/jul/20/sir-alex-ferguson-carlos-tevez

2. Tevez was frustrated with the lack of playing time and not being played in important matches. Signing Berbatov unsettled Tevez.

https://amp.theguardian.com/footbal...vez-transfer-manchester-united-premier-league

3. We only tried to buy him at the end because of fan pressure and when it was clear he was going to City. Something we have already done numerous times with Berbatov, Sancho and recently Cristiano.

https://amp.theguardian.com/football/2009/jan/06/tevez-ferguson-manchester-united

 

[stevoc]

The facts are:

1. We were not willing to buy Tevez for 25m because we didn’t think he was worth that.

https://amp.theguardian.com/football/2009/jul/20/sir-alex-ferguson-carlos-tevez

But that isn't a fact.

This is from the official club statement released at the time back in 2009. The club agreed to pay the fee agreed 2 years piror, Tevez and his owner chose to go to City instead. Fact.

This article is more than 15 years old

Carlos Tevez to leave Manchester United after rejecting five-year deal​

This article is more than 15 years old
United had agreed to pay £25.5m for Argentina star
Manchester City now at front of queue to sign striker


Sat 20 Jun 2009 11.37 BST
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Manchester United have confirmed that Carlos Tevez is to leave Old Trafford, leaving the way open for Manchester City to attempt to take the striker to Eastlands.
The United chief executive David Gill had been in discussions with Tevez's advisor Kia Joorabchian, with the aim of keeping the popular Argentina player. But, despite the offer of a lucrative five-year contract that would have made Tevez one of the highest paid players at the club, the South American has decided to leave.

"Following contact received from Carlos Tevez's advisers last night, in advance of the deadline the club set for concluding negotiations, Manchester United announces that Carlos will not be signing a new contract with the club," said a statement released by United this morning. "The club agreed to pay the option price of £25.5m and offered Carlos a five-year contract which would have made him one of its highest-paid players.
"Disappointingly, however, his advisers informed the club that, despite the success he has enjoyed during one of the club's most successful periods, he does not wish to continue playing for Manchester United. The club would like to thank Carlos for his services over the last two seasons and wishes him good luck for the future."

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2009/jun/20/carlos-tevez-manchester-united-city-transfer

2. Tevez was frustrated with the lack of playing time and not being played in important matches. Signing Berbatov unsettled Tevez.

https://amp.theguardian.com/footbal...vez-transfer-manchester-united-premier-league

He played over 50 games that season. So it wasn't a lack of playing time he was upset with. He just didn't like competition it seems. Truth be told Carlos never really seemed happy anywhere he played in Europe, he was just a bit of a miserable cnut it seems and missed home.

1. We were not willing to buy Tevez for 25m

3. We only tried to buy him at the end because of fan pressure

 

[Fobal]

Steve man, you can talk all you want that there was an agreement, a deal, whatever, but if the player asks for a meeting to be bought after his first year and Fergie says: "look let's wait till the end of the agreement and we sit back again and we'll buy you", the player in question won't like it but it's easier to deal, than at the same time Fergie saying "...ahhh BTW I almost forgot, I'm buying Berbatov for your role, I need competition, bye, seeya at the end of the year Carlos".
That just speaks volume of what he thought of Tevez as a player and the message he was giving to him. Later you can talk all you want about quantity of matches, yet Fergie ended managing the minutes of both Berba and Carlos in the EPL in a way that in retrospective, at moments might unsettled both.
At the end of the day he was buying a new high profile player with the ammount of money he could have used to buy Carlos, as simple as that, good or bad bizzness, agreement or not, he decided to play that card because he already had an agreement with Carlos and in the way he managed it, he thought he was buying the player he liked more, while still keeping Carlos in the team, thinking that Carlos was some sort of Angel Correa.
BTW nothing assures that at the end of the loan Ferguson was absolutely buying Tevez, specially if Berba had a freaking extraordinary season, he ended trying to seal the deal because both players had good seasons and more than probably thinking that no one would make a huge offer to Carlos (less in the way he managed the rotation with both players).

That affair it has all the numbers to not end well, worse with fellas of the character of Carlos and Fergie. In general players are reluctant, does not like it, but mostly accept to compete with a new fella when they are already in the team, not that much on loan and after such a great season and when they have the sort of personality Carlos has. It's worse the scenario in those days when clearly Carlos clearly didn't want to live the whole loan deal a la West Ham all over again and of course in the mix there would be other Clubs asking for him.

Fergie could have bought Carlos (and accelerate the process) and get Berba on a loan, it was perhaps the most reasonable way to deal with that situation. He would have been buying the player that already worked for him, that the team accepted and liked and add competition and more weapons after loosing CR, while testing him if he works or not (on a personal note, God knows what was on Alex mind to switch to a player of Berba's type of personality, coming from fellas like Rooney, CR and Tevez, certainly a lot easier to manage than those three, like Berba ended being, yet he certainly started a trend of buying players with not precisly the winner mentality of Keane, Giggs, Scholes, Rooney, CR, Tevez and cia). Yet we also have to understand that Fergie wanted Berba badly and that the Bulgarian was already wanted by many, so Fergie tried to play his cards with what already had in his pocket (the Carlos 2 years loan) and assure his position to obtain Berba by buying him before someone buys him first. A loan ain't that attractive. It's ok, it's perfectly understandeable and he is Sir Alex, he gets what he WANTS always, what it's clear too, it's that he was getting into some grey water taking in account the one who still was on loan that can end wrong (like it ended).

Regarding your opinion it's absolutely OK and beyond understandable that if you think like Fergie that Carlos didn't warrant all that hussle, that Carlos should have play the good boy with a coach of the stature of Alex, that even maybe going for Berba was the better option. Also that perhaps Carlos it's plainly just an ok player and a cnut, there is nothing wrong with that. Yet thinking that the situation would have absolutely end in a great happy family, taking in account the personalities of Alex and Carlos and how both managed the situation? nah.
This wasn't a case where even as horrible as it ended in later years, both parts played it nicely and smooth, that is as clear as clean water.
I think Fergie thought he meant sthg extra for Carlos, like it would happen to most players with the "Boss" thing, not only it wasn't the case, Carlos ended shithousing the whole thing a couple of years later.

 

[statpadder]

He played over 50 games that season. So it wasn't a lack of playing time he was upset with. He just didn't like competition it seems. Truth be told Carlos never really seemed happy anywhere he played in Europe, he was just a bit of a miserable cnut it seems and missed home.

I’m not going to be arguing with you and this is going to be my last reply to you in this thread. You’re so disingenuous in your arguments, it’s actually laughable now.

Here is what I mentioned:

Tevez was frustrated with the lack of playing time and not being played in important matches. Signing Berbatov unsettled Tevez.

Fact:
1. Tevez played 2300 minutes in CL and Premier League as compared to 3330 the season before

2. In our CL run to the final, Tevez was on the bench or substituted a whooping 9/13 times when he was one of the most important players the season before. He was literally on the bench in every other game.

https://www.transfermarkt.co.in/carlos-tevez/leistungsdaten/spieler/4276/plus/0?saison=2008

It’s okay to accept that one can be wrong sometimes. There is no need to take it personally and keep going on and on.