Rooney: SAF got his tactics wrong against Barcelona

GazTheLegend

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Berbatov wasn't on the bench
Yes - Berbatov stormed off crying BEFORE the match because Alex Ferguson said he wasn't going to play even as a sub.

He absolutely could have been an option but whether it was gentlemanly or not, he was told he wouldn't play before the game.

Hernandez etc were picked instead and I was extremely surprised. Hernandez and Rooney were the 2 up front as I recall, Berbatov wasn't even in the squad.
 

Inigo Montoya

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Yes - Berbatov stormed off crying BEFORE the match because Alex Ferguson said he wasn't going to play even as a sub.

He absolutely could have been an option but whether it was gentlemanly or not, he was told he wouldn't play before the game.
He was on the bench in 2009 too as was Scholesy. Very odd.

SAF seemed to have a thing for Park and I couldn't see it. Especially as Xavi and Iniesta both expressed admiration for him(Scholes) and Carrick
 

RUCK4444

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STFU Wayne. We are United, I’m glad we lost by trying to win. If we had sat back we would have conceded eventually and lost whilst trying to hide.

After each defeat to them there was a sense of ‘oh well, the better team won.’ And there were the better team.
 

acnumber9

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If we’d been defensive and lost, Rooney would’ve been complaining that we didn’t play our natural game.
 

2 man midfield

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Sir Alex said as much himself. It’s easy to say that with hindsight though, at the time it was different. In 2009 we were the best team in Europe going for 2 in a row and Barcelona had been quietly improving - in other words we were huge favourites against a Barca side with a makeshift defence. To go defensive against them would’ve been odd considering the context. Looking back though it would have helped.

2011 we can have no complaints. They’d have found a way through somehow.
 

GazTheLegend

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He was on the bench in 2009 too as was Scholesy. Very odd.

SAF seemed to have a thing for Park and I couldn't see it. Especially as Xavi and Iniesta both expressed admiration for him(Scholes) and Carrick
Was Berbatov on the bench in 2009!!!!!!? Holy shit I don't even remember that
 

GazTheLegend

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He was on the bench in 2009 too as was Scholesy. Very odd.

SAF seemed to have a thing for Park and I couldn't see it. Especially as Xavi and Iniesta both expressed admiration for him(Scholes) and Carrick
Yep checked, wow, Berbatov was on the bench in 2009 and didn't even make the squad in 2011. I remember the 2011 final thinking that Berbatov would have brought a lot of composure against the Spaniards and we needed it, Owen did nothing.
 

sammsky1

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He was on the bench in 2009 too as was Scholesy. Very odd.

SAF seemed to have a thing for Park and I couldn't see it. Especially as Xavi and Iniesta both expressed admiration for him(Scholes) and Carrick
Guilt for not even including on the bench from the previous final
 

Inigo Montoya

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Was Berbatov on the bench in 2009!!!!!!? Holy shit I don't even remember that
With...wait for it....Nani,Tevez and Scholes.

We started with Anderson, Carrick and Park in midfield. Rooney and Ronaldo up front.
 

sammsky1

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Sir Alex said as much himself. It’s easy to say that with hindsight though, at the time it was different. In 2009 we were the best team in Europe going for 2 in a row and Barcelona had been quietly improving - in other words we were huge favourites against a Barca side with a makeshift defence. To go defensive against them would’ve been odd considering the context. Looking back though it would have helped.
2011 we can have no complaints. They’d have found a way through somehow.
Probably the most disappointed I felt after a SAF match. I remember being astonished during 2nd half that we couldn't get on the ball or retain possession for 30 seconds, and that was the first ever time during SAF's tenure that his team couldn't get into a game, no matter how hard they tried.
 

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If we're totally, 100% honest, SAF was never a fantastic tactician was he. This is why I think it's a load of nonsense when people talk about Ole's supposed tactical weaknesses. Does it matter all that much if he doesn't sit and talk about footballers like their pieces on a chessboard?

It's not really the managers job to be sitting down and watching hundreds of hours of footage to devise a specific tactic on a game-by-game basis. Clubs have armies of analysts for that, especially in the modern era, plus I think it's fairly common knowledge Carlos Quieroz and Steve McClaren where mainly responsible for day-to-day coaching during their time at OT.

If SAF made a mistake in those two finals, it wasn't necessarily tactical ignorance, it was ego. The unwillingness to adapt in the face of a better team with incredibly talented players in every position.

I remember going to the Barcelona semi-final when we beat them 1-0 at OT (and eventually went through to the final after a 0-0 at the Camp Nou). We barely left our own penalty area in the two games! I think Scholes' 25-yard winner was the only sniff of a chance we even got! Backs-to-the-wall as it was, had we played this way in the two finals, I strongly believe we would have won one of them
 

sammsky1

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But he was so ineffective in 2009 so field him in 2011? Crazy.
From memory, Park didn't get a place on the bench in 2009. I read in one of SAF's autobiographies that Park's parents even came to that game and SAF felt awful. I think that had a lot to do with 2011 selection.
 
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van Persie

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So Rooney wanted to sit back and be dominated? Counter-attacking? It's not the way SAF lead this club to where it was. We go for it and it worked damn well. You wont understand that sort of mentality that SAF has unless you are the same on the pitch/in life.

You would indirectly be telling your squad that they are better.
 

King7Eric

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I’ll be repeating this till I die, but there was an ocean of difference between 2009 and 2011. In 2008 we were the worlds best team by margins IMO. In 2009 we were almost as good. In 2011 we were a completely different kettle of fish. Barca was a struggling team able to be good in 2008, in 2009 they were a brilliant and reinvigorated team, in 2011 they were the worlds best by margins, maybe the best ever.

I’ve seen the 2009 final three times now. I remember the deflated feeling of helplessness after the game. But feelings aren’t descriptions of facts, nor very accurate. At the time, there was also the newness of tikitaka making me (and most commentators) believe that extreme possession was dominance in itself. Now we know it’s just a strategy, you can have 70 % possesion and be a well deserved loser.

Looking at the 2009 final again, showed me that it was a contained game between two tactically accomplished teams, with different phases to the game, and where United created somewhat more dangerous situations than Barca. United started the game better, creating unbalance in a Barca team that didn’t manage to play the way we have been used to see them. Eto’o’s brilliant goal on an uncharacterisitcally inalert VDS came against play, and was not a typical Barca goal. After that there were phases of Barca having much possesion and United looking for direct openings, but we in fact struggled more to contain them in 2008, and created more openings as well. The difference was that in 2008, Scholes put us ahead with a fantastic strike from an uncharacteristacal defensive error from Zambrotta, whereas none of the shots in 2009 clicked like that. Instead, Messi, again uncharacteristically, scored on a header that was probably one of his best headers in his carreer up to that point. It was again not a result of Barca dominance, but of openings at the back of a team needing ti get forward.

Goals decide games, but goals also colours games, and the combination of those colours, and the then trending overestimation of possession as dominance in itself, created a feeling, yes, and a collective storytelling that Barca had ‘outplayed’ us and similar notions. Also in me. But looking coldly and analytically at the game will tell how United did enough tactically to win that final, but the wonderstrikes were with Eto’o and Xavi/Messi that night, and not with Ronaldo, Berbatov or Rooney whom we know were well capable of such moments of magic.

In 2011, we were chanceless.
Great post. People let results and the media narrative cloud their judgement.
 

GenZRed

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I have a vague memory of Fergie giving Rooney a bollocking on the touchline during an injury break or something during the 2011 game and the speculation was that it was because he wasn’t following instructions.
Fergie wrote in his autobiography that Rooney disappointed him in 2011 because he didn't play wide enough andpress their fullback on his sid eof the pitch. That is probably why.
 

GenZRed

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It think in 2009 we could have won if we played counter-attacking, like we did in the semi-final in 2008. The team didn't show up at all in 2009 which is a real shame. We made fools out of ourselves in 2009 final, which is a shame because the hype for that game was unreal.
 

thepolice123

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Not starting Scholes was the right choice. We needed runners in midfield. Have you seen Scholes against Arsenal between 07-09? They ran him ragged several times. He struggled to cover the space.
 

Bebestation

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SAF was more a man management type manager than a completely tactical one.

Our assistant managers was quite an important factor of our tactical changes.
 

Inigo Montoya

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From memory, Park didn't get a place on the bench in 2009. I read in one of SAF's autobiographies that Park's parents even came to that game and SAF felt awful.
I think that had a lot to do with 2011 selection.
Park played in 2009
It was 2008 that he wasn't picked...we won! We also had Scholes in midfield. Why drop him a year later is unfathomable?

I know we don't like to hear a bad word against SAF but tactically he wasn't always the best in Europe. Getting bested by Leverkusen and Dortmund previously was worse than losing to the greatest club side for years.
 

GenZRed

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Rooney talking tactics :lol:

Compared to all the tactical masterminds we have here on RedCafe, what does Rooney know? He hasn't played the game professionally for years with some of the best names in football, and been coached by some brilliant minds. You're right, Rooney should shut his mouth.
 

GenZRed

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SAF was more a man management type manager than a completely tactical one.

Our assistant managers was quite an important factor of our tactical changes.
Apparently Carlos Queiroz's tactical preparation for the 2008 semi final against Barcelona made a lot of difference.
 

GenZRed

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Fergie did have his howlers, starting Anderson over Scholes in 2009 was ubelieveable. Anderson didn't play one good ball in that match, Scholes come on for the final minutes and played much better. At least Fergie admitted his mistake in his autobiography.
 

sammsky1

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Park played in 2009
It was 2008 that he wasn't picked...we won! We also had Scholes in midfield. Why drop him a year later is unfathomable?
I know we don't like to hear a bad word against SAF but tactically he wasn't always the best in Europe. Getting bested by Leverkusen and Dortmund previously was worse than losing to the greatest club side for years.
Oh yeah, you're right! Getting my years all mixed up! yeah Park 2011 made no sense. I agree SAF was the no 1 best at tactics, but he was still very very good. And he compensated that by bringing in other coaches.

Then again, I think we lose 2011 final 9 times out of 10 (and that 1 chance is perfect park the bus with Fletcher) so it didn't really matter what SAF lined up with.

2009 was winnable, but also loseable, and we lost: we needed Ronaldo and Rooney to both play 9/10, and neither did. Messi and E'to did and that was the difference.
 

cyberman

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Park played in 2009
It was 2008 that he wasn't picked...we won! We also had Scholes in midfield. Why drop him a year later is unfathomable?

I know we don't like to hear a bad word against SAF but tactically he wasn't always the best in Europe. Getting bested by Leverkusen and Dortmund previously was worse than losing to the greatest club side for years.
Leverkusen and Dortmund didnt beat us because they outsmarted us in a tactical battle?
Plus from 07 to 09 we set all types of European records. That period alone should cement his European status.
 

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Not sure anything would've stopped that Busquest, Xavi, Iniesta, Messi tandem Barca had going in 2011. Though I suppose pressing them wasn't the best thing to do, it's better to lose while at least taking a shot than sitting back with 3% ball possession and losing anyway.
 

fps

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With...wait for it....Nani,Tevez and Scholes.

We started with Anderson, Carrick and Park in midfield. Rooney and Ronaldo up front.
I remember being absolutely baffled by the lineup for the match. It was like Ferguson had got into his own head too much second guessing himself beforehand.
 

fps

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SAF was more a man management type manager than a completely tactical one.

Our assistant managers was quite an important factor of our tactical changes.
Agreed, though Fergie certainly worked hard to stay up with developments in the game in Europe they would kinda filter through to United a couple of years later.
 

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Agreed, though Fergie certainly worked hard to stay up with developments in the game in Europe they would kinda filter through to United a couple of years later.
I'm glad you mentioned this because there is a tendency to see Sir Alex as little more than a man motivator these days.

Over the course of his managerial career nobody was better at keeping up with the changes in football than Sir Alex. All the greats, Trapattoni, Sacchi, Cruyff, Capello, Lippi, Van Gaal etc they all managed to get to the top of the game but then be left behind as others reacted to their innovations. Sir Alex was the only one who was consistently able to shift his approach in how he managed players, tactically and personally, to stay at the top for decades.

Sir Alex was responsible for shifting English teams away from the big man, little man 4-4-2 style with the way he deployed Cantona. It was Sir Alex who initiated the move away from the 2 man strike force altogether, even after it had delivered him the Treble. It was Sir Alex who decided to move away from a physical anchor man towards a deep lying playmaker, in Michael Carrick, as a response to the so-called Makelele role. It was Sir Alex who decided to ditch the prolific point of the attack and move to a flexible, front three. Sir Alex saw all the changes in European football over a period of three decades and he kept up every time. He doesn't get enough credit for not being left behind like Wenger and Mourinho and others look to have been.
 

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It’s a strange one, as it’s not like we’d never employed any other tactics. We had our fair share of sitting back and roughing up opponents over the years when we needed to.
Yeah, agreed. Especially during our great European (form) run where we made back to back finals etc. We had some very conservative counter attacking performances which served us well.

SAF wasn't stupid though, he might have said that statement out loud trying to lift the players confidence/belief, but they'd have run the numbers and probably come to same conclusion - sitting back or trying to attack that Barca team was going to lead to similar outcomes. We'd have sat back and probably have lost and the exact opposite theme ("might as well have attacked them") would have emerged. Truth be told, they were just the best team in the world, and by a distance.
 

Lay

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I don’t think we should have played Hernandez in the final. Should have packed the midfield but we also had to play Fabio at left back and a return in Valencia at right back who spent the fouling Barcelona.

I still maintain that VDS was at fault for both finals though
 

Inigo Montoya

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Leverkusen and Dortmund didnt beat us because they outsmarted us in a tactical battle?
Plus from 07 to 09 we set all types of European records. That period alone should cement his European status.
It's a moot point. Losing to teams we should have comfortably put away showed a lack of some thing be it tactics or whatever
 

united_99

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Yeah all great managers have bad or strange games, doesn’t mean they are tactically not good enough.
Pep himself had enough bad big games after leaving Barca, the worst probably losing 0-4 at home to Real with a team which had won the treble in the previous season. Until then Bayern’s home recorded against Real was excellent. In terms of quality both teams were equal or maybe Real being marginally better. Whereas in 2011 the difference in quality between Barca and United’s team was huge.
 

cyberman

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It's a moot point. Losing to teams we should have comfortably put away showed a lack of some thing be it tactics or whatever
Its not though. Being outclassed tactically means Sir Alex got it badly wrong which isnt the case imo.
 

Inigo Montoya

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Its not though. Being outclassed tactically means Sir Alex got it badly wrong which isnt the case imo.
It's irrelevant now. The regret which even he admits is not winning at least 1 or 2 more than we did when we were the best team all round
 

Sylar

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I hope im not muddling the games up here.

Hernandez I think was the issue. He was in so much form that he had to start the final, even though it was the wrong decision, but we had momentum too with that 442. We should have packed the midfield.

Saying that we were 1-1 at half time somehow. We needed Scholes in the middle. When he came on, Barca players kinda werent pressing him (although they pressed everybody else). Also Valencia had his worst game for us. I think Nani defo needed to play ahead of him as Nani could use both feet and could go out and in.

Its a shame cos their second and third goals in 2011 were from mistakes (VDS for the messi goal imo, and the third was nani or carrick making a mistake to give them back the ball near our box and a superb finish by Villa).

2009, we needed to score first. After they scored, they just passed around us, and we didnt have the energy at all to get the ball back. Carrick, iirc, was playing with injury. Anderson did as much as he could, and I think we played Giggs? When we should have again either started Scholes or somebody like Park in the centre for his energy, and Tevez/Ronaldo/Rooney as front three.
Fletcher was a blow as he was great in the run up for that campaign.
 

bsCallout

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Both him and Rio have said the same, makes me wonder if SAFs real failure was not being able to get the players to 100% buy into the plan.

A team has to believe in the plan in order for it to be effective.
 

Eire Red United

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He was on the bench in 2009 too as was Scholesy. Very odd.

SAF seemed to have a thing for Park and I couldn't see it. Especially as Xavi and Iniesta both expressed admiration for him(Scholes) and Carrick
Think Fergie said he had Owen on the bench over Berba as he was a better option if we needed to nick a late goal.