Roulette Draft - R1: 2mufc0 vs Enigma

[oneniltothearsenal]

@oneniltothearsenal

I understand where you are coming from mate, but this is Bergkamp in his own words:

from the official website:
https://www.arsenal.com/news/features/20150619/bergkamp-in-his-own-words

He is surrounded by exact type of players that Dennis loved to play with - Keizer and Robben cutting inside and Gullit from deep. Van Hanegem in midfield. Its really an ideal set-up to take advantage of Bergkamp's technique and play style. I can easily see him thriving here as part of that quote shows his synergy with Jonk which I can see being replicated here with van Hanegem.
Finishing 2nd and 3rd in the Ballon consecutive years playing this role for club and country should emphasize how well he can perform here.

Combos like this I see alot with Robben and Keizer

Anyway, I always get into debates over Bergkamp it seems I should just get to work making some of those videos I keep thinking about doing

 

[Šjor Bepo]

any excuse to post this, God toying with Baresi, Maldini and co.
now continue with the discussion....

 

[Enigma_87]

He is surrounded by exact type of players that Dennis loved to play with - Keizer and Robben cutting inside and Gullit from deep. Van Hanegem in midfield. Its really an ideal set-up to take advantage of Bergkamp's technique and play style. I can easily see him thriving here as part of that quote shows his synergy with Jonk which I can see being replicated here with van Hanegem.
Finishing 2nd and 3rd in the Ballon consecutive years playing this role for club and country should emphasize how well he can perform here.

Combos like this I see alot with Robben and Keizer

Anyway, I always get into debates over Bergkamp it seems I should just get to work making some of those videos I keep thinking about doing

Still not the set up he liked and the one he said so himself.

He loved to get into pockets and space and engage those players you mentioned. But with him between the two CB's he will have different responsibilities as a lone striker, and when asked to lead the line.

He wanted to have a striker to relieve space for him and take the pressure of being the goalscorer of the team. I mean he said so himself, so surely that has to be taken into account?

 

[Enigma_87]

any excuse to post this, God toying with Baresi, Maldini and co.
now continue with the discussion....

Don't get me wrong of course Bergkamp is a fine player, but from that season his partnership with Roben Sosa (another creative and not out and out striker) - similar to Robben didn't work out at all.

The only thing I was disappointed with was Ruben Sosa: we could have got more out of each other on the pitch

"In his book, he said that he'd come forward and there would be him and [more successful strike partner Ruben] Sosa. Sosa wouldn't pass to him anyway and there would be two wide men so far apart and he'd look back on the field and the midfield would be miles away. Bergkamp needed a team to bring him in."

When he got the set up he mentioned and wanted things clicked for him. At Inter it wasn't really the best you could have from Berkgamp and a low point of his career. He had occasional flashes here and there as the game above but all in all wasn't his set up at all.

Another one from his autobiography:

“I’d be up there with Sosa and let’s say two midfielders have joined the attack as well…I look back and my defenders and other midfielders are still deep in their own half! There’s a huge space between us and it’s dead space! It’s killing me, it’s killing the team.”

If the diminutive Uruguayan’s explosive pace and head-down style of dribbling was perfectly suited to Bagnoli’s game plan, Bergkamp’s sublime vision wasn’t. If Bergkamp needed collaborators in order to shine, Sosa was undoubtedly a soloist; their partnership was always destined to fail.

Sosa's description really describe both Robben and Keizer too much.

"Look at the way he allowed Ruben Sosa, who is an inferior player, be the boss at Inter. Berg-kamp's free-kicks and penalties are famous in the Netherlands. His problems are between his ears. A lot depends on Bruce Rioch, but if you want the best from Bergkamp, you have to build a team around him and play in an intelligent, attacking way. I don't know if Arsenal can do this."

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Still not the set up he liked and the one he said so himself.

He loved to get into pockets and space and engage those players you mentioned. But with him between the two CB's he will have different responsibilities as a lone striker, and when asked to lead the line.

He wanted to have a striker to relieve space for him and take the pressure of being the goalscorer of the team. I mean he said so himself, so surely that has to be taken into account?

I just think you are over-weighing a quote curated for a very specific audience (Arsenal.com where he only played as 2nd striker). If you are suggesting that Dennis would not thrive in this role playing with Keizer, Robben, Gullit, Van Hanegem based on this quote, I am not convinced by that argument. The key is Dennis having teammates who are on the same wavelength as him. This side is flush with those types. His achievements getting 2nd and 3rd in the Ballon speak for itself really.

 

[Enigma_87]

I just think you are over-weighing a quote curated for a very specific audience (Arsenal.com where he only played as 2nd striker). If you are suggesting that Dennis would not thrive in this role playing with Keizer, Robben, Gullit, Van Hanegem based on this quote, I am not convinced by that argument. The key is Dennis having teammates who are on the same wavelength as him. This side is flush with those types. His achievements getting 2nd and 3rd in the Ballon speak for itself really.

No, mate I'm pulling most of it directly from his autobiography. He didn't like being a CF or #9, to put it simply. He didn't gel with Sosa who is very similar to the type Robben and Keizer are/were.

The set up he thrived and became what he is is far different from the 4-3-3 being played as a lone striker.

He never liked or wanted to be played up top, especially after his Inter stint. It's not only due to being on Arsenal.com, but all taken from his own accords and words.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

No, mate I'm pulling most of it directly from his autobiography. He didn't like being a CF or #9, to put it simply. He didn't gel with Sosa who is very similar to the type Robben and Keizer are/were.

The set up he thrived and became what he is is far different from the 4-3-3 being played as a lone striker.

He never liked or wanted to be played up top, especially after his Inter stint. It's not only due to being on Arsenal.com, but all taken from his own accords and words.

The problems with Inter go a lot deeper than Ruben Sosa and absolutely do not apply here. Also, if you don't think getting 2nd and 3rd in the Ballon is thriving then I don't know what to say really.

Theo Walcott thought his best position was CF, Oxlande-Chamberlain thought his was CM. I just don't think those types of quotes are very important. We can agree to disagree as I have seen enough of Bergkamp 92-94 to think this set-up would be fantastic for him.

 

[Enigma_87]

The problems with Inter go a lot deeper than Ruben Sosa and absolutely do not apply here. Also, if you don't think getting 2nd and 3rd in the Ballon is thriving then I don't know what to say really.

Theo Walcott thought his best position was CF, Oxlande-Chamberlain thought his was CM. I just don't think those types of quotes are very important. We can agree to disagree as I have seen enough of Bergkamp 92-94 to think this set-up would be fantastic for him.

As I said, the younger version is different to the one he played for Arsenal in completely different set up. 2mufc said in the OP he's using the 98' version - more of a conductor dropping deeper, not really the one you are quoting and envisaging this set up working.

It's getting the best of both worlds really but not really fair on the actual set up and use of him.

We can agree to disagree of course..

 

[2mufc0]

Don't get me wrong of course Bergkamp is a fine player, but from that season his partnership with Roben Sosa (another creative and not out and out striker) - similar to Robben didn't work out at all.





When he got the set up he mentioned and wanted things clicked for him. At Inter it wasn't really the best you could have from Berkgamp and a low point of his career. He had occasional flashes here and there as the game above but all in all wasn't his set up at all.

Another one from his autobiography:




Sosa's description really describe both Robben and Keizer too much.

All of these quotes are about the defence and midfield separated from the attack, and this is likely to happen with a defensive Italian team like Inter where the defenders and midfielders don't push up. My team is playing a completely different style, total football is about cohesiveness and all 11 players pulling in the right direction to ensure there are no gaps and a player is always available to pass to. These quotes do not apply at all to this setup and are irrelevant.

What Bergkamp is saying here is he prefered to have players close to him and moving around him, this setup clearly provides that.

 

[2mufc0]

As I said, the younger version is different to the one he played for Arsenal in completely different set up. 2mufc said in the OP he's using the 98' version - more of a conductor dropping deeper, not really the one you are quoting and envisaging this set up working.

It's getting the best of both worlds really but not really fair on the actual set up and use of him.

We can agree to disagree of course..

Didn't say i was playing his 98 version, the 98 reference was made to show how Bergkamp could also play the long ball game when required, was merely to demonstrate he's not a one dimensional striker.

And i think that is happening here, he's getting pigeon holed into certain roles, imo he was one of the more dynamic strikers, i think Sjor's brilliant video above demonstrates the work he put in from deep and uptop - so he clearly can do both.

 

[Physiocrat]

I reckon most creative second-strikers could play a false 9ish position (which is how I'm thinking Bergkamp would play here) since they started further forward and then dropped back. With the wingers and midfield support the question I have is whether he has enough central support. Ideally I'd like a more cutting in style winger than Keizer to give him more passing options centrally and to allow him to drop deeper and dictate play.

 

[Don Alfredo]

I reckon most creative second-strikers could play a false 9ish position (which is how I'm thinking Bergkamp would play here) since they started further forward and then dropped back. With the wingers and midfield support the question I have is whether he has enough central support. Ideally I'd like a more cutting in style winger than Keizer to give him more passing options centrally and to allow him to drop deeper and dictate play.

I don't get that point or maybe I understood it wrong. You have a 3-men-midfield, Robben cutting in, Junior drifting central and Bergkamp dropping deep. Yet you want even more players in central positions instead of one winger who stretches the opposition and makes runs in behind?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Interesting argument, but moot point anyways. Enigmas defense is good enough to handle that front 3.

It'll come down to Gullit vs Kalle on who can influence more. Gullit will but Kalle will score the winner was my take.

 

[Physiocrat]

I don't get that point or maybe I understood it wrong. You have a 3-men-midfield, Robben cutting in, Junior drifting central and Bergkamp dropping deep. Yet you want even more players in central positions instead of one winger who stretches the opposition and makes runs in behind?

I'd forgotten about Junior. I think a more overlapping full-back would be optimal with someone like Stoichkov left instead of Keizer. Robben cuts in and makes runs in behind. Gullit can also drift right when Robben cuts in too. Essentially I'm suggesting a 433 like peak Barca except the LB is the attacking one and Gullit gives width on the right like Iniesta did on the left

 

[Enigma_87]

Congrats @2mufc0 ! You have a great team and good luck going forward.

 

[2mufc0]

Congrats @2mufc0 ! You have a great team and good luck going forward.

Thanks Enigma you had a great team too didn't deserve to go out first round.