Ruben Amorim | 2024-25

[golden_blunder]

You've set it to allow voting for multiple options.

Weird because that’s not an option to select in the setup

 

[golden_blunder]

Feck it I’ll delete it

 

[distant_red]

It's fecking bullshit they won't let us play with 12.

Should be fine if Rasmus is the 12th player. Technically, that’s 11

 

[Cathy Ferguson]

From a technical standpoint, there is no need to worry about united.

They have good defenders like Yoro, De Ligt, Martinez, Maguire, Heaven and Dalot.

Then in midfield, there is the destroyer Ugarte, great ball retainer Mainoo, experienced Casemiro, Dorgu and Bruno etc.

In forward role, there is Hojlund, Chido, Zirkzee, Cunha and a potential world class striker.

Then there's also more cash to be earned from Rashford, Sancho and Antony's Sales.

The team really only needs a better keeper and striker. Maybe an extra midfielder.

The poor league results this season was largely due to participation in the Europa.

And last season it was the injuries...

Nope, we are exactly as poor as the table shows. Poor players everywhere not least in CM and at WB, no striker, poor manager etc.

 

[Ezkay]

Wonder how many cringe ‘Inter play with wingbacks so it can work’ am I going to read until full time

 

[sparx99]

The eye test showed that we created a high volume of low quality chances which pumped the stats. Especially Forest away and Spurs they set up shop and let us have possession as soon as they scored. Most of our shots they still had most of their men behind the ball and in their shape. Only in the Villa game did we actually cause problems and move the ball quickly.

One thing you have to consider and doesn’t show up in the stats is what happens at different game states if you take a chance.

Several games this season we had early promising moments that resulted in a missed chance. Then we conceded from a counter attack from our own corner or a soft set piece for the opposition.

If we had instead taken a 1-0 lead by having a striker or winger with better finishing then you also get better chances as the opposition have to come out. The best strikers exceed their xG. They take half chances and give you the lead.

We saw this in the Everton game in Nov/Dec. We weren’t particularly the better side but took the lead and then picked them off. The chances for goals 3&4 would have been higher xG than most chances we make in games at 0-0.

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

Should be fine if Rasmus is the 12th player. Technically, that’s 11

Harsh... but fair.

 

[Eugenius]

One thing you have to consider and doesn’t show up in the stats is what happens at different game states if you take a chance.

Several games this season we had early promising moments that resulted in a missed chance. Then we conceded from a counter attack from our own corner or a soft set piece for the opposition.

If we had instead taken a 1-0 lead by having a striker or winger with better finishing then you also get better chances as the opposition have to come out. The best strikers exceed their xG. They take half chances and give you the lead.

We saw this in the Everton game in Nov/Dec. We weren’t particularly the better side but took the lead and then picked them off. The chances for goals 3&4 would have been higher xG than most chances we make in games at 0-0.

This is true. Goals change games, and also another reason adding up xG doesn't work.

 

[Superunknown]

Watching the Champions League final is interesting. We look like we're set up in a way that's not too dissimilar to Inter, but I'd love us to look and play like PSG are. They're so comfortable on the ball, they press incredibly well, and they attack with intensity. They look like they're going to score with every attack.

The problem with Inter's setup is that it looks very easy to play against. Press/double up on the wingbacks, withdraw the centre forward so the centre backs don't know who to pick up, and win the ball back quickly because of the lack of an out-ball. We look like we have the same deficiencies. Obviously, Inter have done incredibly well to make it to the final, but they're being so outclassed. We're still miles off making it to their level, but I just wonder if the same fate is going to befall us, where the system has too many flaws to really work.

 

[Kwaj7]

I just struggle to see how in the modern game we will dominate possession and dictate play with only 2 in midfield

Maybe with a Stones like defender that’s comfortable stepping into midfield then maybe it could.

Look at PSG today with that incredible 3 man midfield, I can’t imagine even with Amorim’s perfect team how it would cope with those 3 without a 10 dropping in to help, but then your attacking with basically 2 players and hoping you’ve got Usain Bolt as both wingbacks to get up the pitch

It only to me works in a counter attacking sense, team attacks you down the right. Ball breaks down you have an overload on the left and get it up the pitch asap, hence why when teams have attacked us we’ve played well in transitions, but if they sit back we’ve got effectively 7 behind the ball

And a manager that will not adapt to the situation and just say it’s my system and that’s it doesn’t strike me as someone with common sense, Fergie didn’t just play the same system all the time regardless of injuries or personnel, neither did Mourinho or even Moyes. Our last two managers were stubborn and I fear have set us back years.

I trust the managers honesty and what’s he’s identified as issues. I definitely do not trust his tactics or approach though

 

[sparx99]

Watching the Champions League final is interesting. We look like we're set up in a way that's not too dissimilar to Inter, but I'd love us to look and play like PSG are. They're so comfortable on the ball, they press incredibly well, and they attack with intensity. They look like they're going to score with every attack.

The problem with Inter's setup is that it looks very easy to play against. Press/double up on the wingbacks, withdraw the centre forward so the centre backs don't know who to pick up, and win the ball back quickly because of the lack of an out-ball. We look like we have the same deficiencies. Obviously, Inter have done incredibly well to make it to the final, but they're being so outclassed. We're still miles off making it to their level, but I just wonder if the same fate is going to befall us, where the system has too many flaws to really work.

I take the point but PSG have done the same thing to teams playing 4-3-3 this season too. They’ve just been very difficult to contain full stop.

 

[Shark]

I’m still Amorim out. He hasn’t proven he can manage in the Premier League successfully and his in game changes lack.

At this moment in time it's impossible to be "out" because the club are sticking with him. We've all been here before though, when ETH was kept on after a disaster season, after Mourinho wasn't fully backed in his final summer, after Ole lost the Europa final. Air of inevitability. There's no way back from what Ruben served up, aside from a miracle which I'm very much hoping for.

 

[OmarUnited4ever]

At this moment in time it's impossible to be "out" because the club are sticking with him. We've all been here before though, when ETH was kept on after a disaster season, after Mourinho wasn't fully backed in his final summer, after Ole lost the Europa final. Air of inevitability. There's no way back from what Ruben served up, aside from a miracle which I'm very much hoping for.

I think it will be better next season, I can't give you a rational explaination on why it will be better, but I think we will sign few quality players, I can see us easily get top 4 and have good results against most teams in the league.

One key thing that must happen is signing a quality striker and a quality CM, assuming Cunha (Quality AM) is a certainty at this stage.

 

[kouroux]

At this moment in time it's impossible to be "out" because the club are sticking with him. We've all been here before though, when ETH was kept on after a disaster season, after Mourinho wasn't fully backed in his final summer, after Ole lost the Europa final. Air of inevitability. There's no way back from what Ruben served up, aside from a miracle which I'm very much hoping for.

It is possible. Just basically waiting for the inevitable just like it got to that point with ETH

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

After watching the final, it's hard to get excited about this system even if it does work out.

A system with 3 center backs and 2 wing-backs is just duller and has a lower ceiling.

I'm also not convinced Amorim will consistently use a winger in 1 of those wing-back slots at United, but we'll see I guess.

 

[Zed is not dead]

Id say this game is not an example of why 3 at the back works or doesn’t work.

Inter very much builds and attacks with 2 CBs, Bastoni pushing very high on the left flank, leaving Acerbi and Pavard behind, or Pavard would push down the right flank leaving Acerbi and Bastoni.

A « system » is basically how the team lines up during defensive phases. PSG would build up with a back three composed of the two CBs and a midfielder dropping in between, or one of the CBs in the middle, flanked by the other CB and one of Hakimi and Nuno Mendes. They would defend with a line of 4 however.

So a formation is not a fixed position for all players regardless of the phase of the game. Most teams nowadays will attack with something like a 2-3 base or 3-2 base. That’s one of the basics of football and it’s the WM formation.

What makes a system work or not is movement and quality of personnel, not how they are lined up on the team sheet

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Id say this game is not an example of why 3 at the back works or doesn’t work.

Inter very much builds and attacks with 2 CBs, Bastoni pushing very high on the left flank, leaving Acerbi and Pavard behind, or Pavard would push down the right flank leaving Acerbi and Bastoni.

A « system » is basically how the team lines up during defensive phases. PSG would build up with a back three composed of the two CBs and a midfielder dropping in between, or one of the CBs in the middle, flanked by the other CB and one of Hakimi and Nuno Mendes. They would defend with a line of 4 however.

So a formation is not a fixed position for all players regardless of the phase of the game. Most teams nowadays will attack with something like a 2-3 base or 3-2 base. That’s one of the basics of football and it’s the WM formation.

What makes a system work or not is movement and quality of personnel, not how they are lined up on the team sheet

Inter didn't do any of that, because PSG didn't care about their wing-backs pushing up the field.

People are well aware about teams building in a 3-2 or 2-3 base. It's a rebuttal constantly used for people not liking this system by Amorim or other managers employing a system with wing-backs.

But you guys always ignore that those top teams using either a 3-2 or 2-3 in building up - They have wingers out wide stretching teams. Wingers and not full-backs.

 

[El Jefe]

After watching the final, it's hard to get excited about this system even if it does work out.

A system with 3 center backs and 2 wing-backs is just duller and has a lower ceiling.

I'm also not convinced Amorim will consistently use a winger in 1 of those wing-back slots at United, but we'll see I guess.

This is it in a nutshell. I can’t remember any team playing 3atb dominating the PL for a stretch or the CL. This holds true for defensive teams too, last one was Jose’s Chelsea 1.0.

The best teams are the ones with the best attackers and creative midfielders. A system that sacrifices an offensive player or two for extra defensive players will have much less room for error.

 

[redshaw]

433 is a good framework to have a fluid attack, potential for a controlling midfield and 4 defenders but obviously there's a lot of other tactics and player types and coaching. Inter players don't look capable of matching PSG in whatever formation but you can get exposed with 3 at the back to inverted wingers/strikers or stuck in a back 5 with little outlet. I think there's too much work needed to cover the attack and defence although in theory it can be done.

What's bad is reading how ETH played 4231/433 like it was some off the shelf formation that all teams stick to and it didn't work so it's time to go 343. Pool have walked the league with 433 and did very well in the CL table. I would definitely go for 433 and have been championing it for years, we've really only seen it with Herrera Matic and Pogba. United have had a counter attack style then went for ETH's master plan of best transition team which meant only one or zero midfield and he only had a sensible plan for the FA Cup Final. ETH tried to come up with this high transition after looking at United's attacking teams during the second summer and got it badly wrong.

For ETH he had this FDJ or bust, yet I kept saying surely we can scout other technical mids and PSG have just done that. We could've had a super team.

 

[Brand Nubian]

Watching the Champions League final is interesting. We look like we're set up in a way that's not too dissimilar to Inter, but I'd love us to look and play like PSG are. They're so comfortable on the ball, they press incredibly well, and they attack with intensity. They look like they're going to score with every attack.

The problem with Inter's setup is that it looks very easy to play against. Press/double up on the wingbacks, withdraw the centre forward so the centre backs don't know who to pick up, and win the ball back quickly because of the lack of an out-ball. We look like we have the same deficiencies. Obviously, Inter have done incredibly well to make it to the final, but they're being so outclassed. We're still miles off making it to their level, but I just wonder if the same fate is going to befall us, where the system has too many flaws to really work.

But then, if the system had too many flaws Inter wouldnt get so close to winning Seria A nor making CL finals. They just faced the strongest team in great form who had betean top sides on the way to tonight.

Think if you got this system down to a tee like Inter then you need a couple players having a stormer on the night and others not being way bellow their standard. Other thing is the shape might look similar to Amorims but tactical nuances are lot different in many ways. And last point of course is managerial quallity where Inzaghi is not just a highly talented but already well established man at top level.

Rubén is still green while managing an unbalanced squad lacking quality and the club in dissaray. Biggest worry then is that even if he got top squad tomorrow whether he has got all what it takes to fight for major honours. Signs are there already he is way bellow that, unable to make any tangible improvements to the team he has got to work with.

 

[moodyred]

We wanted ETH out so badly. Called him a fraud and all. I wonder what happens if he were to perform at Leverkusen. Who's the real issue then?

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

We wanted ETH out so badly. Called him a fraud and all. I wonder what happens if he were to perform at Leverkusen. Who's the real issue then?

Depends what you define as perform.

Also depends what system he utilizes at Leverkusen.

Highly doubt he goes there and doesn't make a single tweak from his United tactics.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

5-2-3 is not the way.

 

[moodyred]

Depends what you define as perform.

Also depends what system he utilizes at Leverkusen.

Highly doubt he goes there and doesn't make a single tweak from his United tactics.

But that's the thing. If he can tweak and get the team to work, what does that say about his efforts at united, and rest of the managers. Could it be more than simply changing a manager? Seriously, I have always thought that the senior management at this club is the main issue, and still think so. As such, changing the manager would not help at all.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

But that's the thing. If he can tweak and get the team to work, what does that say about his efforts at united, and rest of the managers. Could it be more than simply changing a manager? Seriously, I have always thought that the senior management at this club is the main issue, and still think so. As such, changing the manager would not help at all.

It's not binary. Both are issues.

We hire managers that aren't good enough(and wait too long to sack them). And the board on the football side of things haven't been good enough either.

ETH wasn't let down by the board. The board gave him too much trust. Their own faults though. Which goes back to my original point. No managed hired has been good enough, but the board from Woodward to Murtough(to Ineos too maybe) have been abject failures as well.

 

[honirelandboy]

Could we not have getting a manager in who usually plays a 4-3-3 formation instead of this three center backs nonsense. It’s not the united way.

 

[geelong]

It's possible to say that a proper functioning 4-3-3 would be the ideal system (I think we definitely need a midfield triangle of passer - tackler - runner) but also appreciate that whatever the limitations of Inzaghi's 3-5-2, he has got the absolute most out of the players at his disposal. At the moment we neither have a system that's working nor are we getting the most out of what we have, which in some quarters is seen as a good thing.

Likewise, it's possible to appreciate that Amorim's results have been dreadful but that part of hiring a young manager is that he won't necessarily hit the ground running. This is contingent in my view on him developing and growing as well as his squad, however.

 

[Dominos]

Watching the Champions League final is interesting. We look like we're set up in a way that's not too dissimilar to Inter, but I'd love us to look and play like PSG are. They're so comfortable on the ball, they press incredibly well, and they attack with intensity. They look like they're going to score with every attack.

The problem with Inter's setup is that it looks very easy to play against. Press/double up on the wingbacks, withdraw the centre forward so the centre backs don't know who to pick up, and win the ball back quickly because of the lack of an out-ball. We look like we have the same deficiencies. Obviously, Inter have done incredibly well to make it to the final, but they're being so outclassed. We're still miles off making it to their level, but I just wonder if the same fate is going to befall us, where the system has too many flaws to really work.

After watching the final, it's hard to get excited about this system even if it does work out.

A system with 3 center backs and 2 wing-backs is just duller and has a lower ceiling.

I'm also not convinced Amorim will consistently use a winger in 1 of those wing-back slots at United, but we'll see I guess.

This is it in a nutshell. I can’t remember any team playing 3atb dominating the PL for a stretch or the CL. This holds true for defensive teams too, last one was Jose’s Chelsea 1.0.

The best teams are the ones with the best attackers and creative midfielders. A system that sacrifices an offensive player or two for extra defensive players will have much less room for error.

I've said before, the only good reason I think for implementing 3 at the back is if organically the set of players you have at the time, just so happen to suit it more.

If you're trying to build a team from scratch, which is effectively what we're trying to do here, on what basis would you deliberately build a team for 3 CB's? I can't shake the feeling that there must be a reason the majority of teams play 4 at the back, and there must be a reason the majority of the best teams play 4 at the back. Of the stand out great teams over the last 20 years, how many of them employed 3 at the back? Fergie's United, Mourinho's Chelsea/Inter, Pep's Barca or City team, Klopp's Liverpool, Heynckes' Bayern, Enrique PSG, Ancelotti's Madrid, Zidane's Madrid, Flick's Bayern, Flick's Barca.. Which back 3 sides are competing with these teams in terms of the level they achieved?

3 at the back seems to be more difficult to "get right", it's more difficult to recruit for, it's more difficult to find good wing backs, it's more difficult to find midfielders who can play in a 2, it's more difficult to find attackers comfortable in the pockets that we need for those wide 10s.. And at the end of it, even if you do get it right, is it inherently giving you better results than if you just built a back 4 team instead (which would have been easier)? If at the end of the journey the back 3 was giving you a higher level than you ever could have reached with a back 4, then you could understand, but there's no evidence for it. If anything, the evidence is the opposite.

I will say though, I generally prefer 343 to 352. 352 too often leaves the opposition full backs free because you don't have anyone close enough to get out to them so good possession sides can switch from side to side using the free man, and they'll have you chasing, and they'll exploit the gaps. I preferred Tuchel's 343 at Chelsea to Inter's 352.

Most teams play 1 striker up front so you've got 3 centre backs marking 1 player for most of the time. And on the ball, even if you have above average ball playing centre backs, typically you're always going to be far better off in terms of on the ball impact and attacking impact if you replace one of those centre backs and had an extra attacker on the pitch, or extra midfielder on the pitch.

 

[Tosicsleftpeg]

The gap in quality between us and PSG is gigantic, it's quite depressing.

 

[Insanity]

I read Inzaghi might be available. He got shellacked in the CL final but the guy has proven that he has what it takes to manage a big club and is a winner.

 

[sparx99]

If you're trying to build a team from scratch, which is effectively what we're trying to do here, on what basis would you deliberately build a team for 3 CB's?.

I think the one reason you might try to do something like this is if you are trying to get ahead of the curve in football.

If you set out to mimic Klopp or Pep you are already chasing and trying to outdo genius managers at their own game.

On the flip side a number of managers have been making strides playing three at the back; Inzaghi has taken Inter to two CL finals in three seasons. Atalanta won the Europa League. Xabi Alonso led Leverkusen to two trophies and an unbeaten Bundesliga season. And of course Amorim has some fantastic achievements at Sporting too.

I think it’s understandable if Ineos, Berrada, Wilcox etc felt like maybe three at the back was the next wave of tactical innovation and gambled on one of the more promising young managers. Clearly though PSG, Barcelona and Liverpool have shown that 4-3-3 is still the system to beat.

It will be interesting to watch how Xabi does at Madrid given you’d expect him to implement his 3-4-2-1.

 

[Martinez4midfield]

I know this sounds crazy but I think when decisions are unpopular I think they're actually doing a good job.

 

[Zed is not dead]

Inter didn't do any of that, because PSG didn't care about their wing-backs pushing up the field.

People are well aware about teams building in a 3-2 or 2-3 base. It's a rebuttal constantly used for people not liking this system by Amorim or other managers employing a system with wing-backs.

But you guys always ignore that those top teams using either a 3-2 or 2-3 in building up - They have wingers out wide stretching teams. Wingers and not full-backs.

Thanks for completely misunderstanding my post

 

[greater wall]

I know this sounds crazy but I think when decisions are unpopular I think they're actually doing a good job.

It's true that they have kitchen sinked the whole operation to build a base to start from. The other main expense is the stadium so the fans are going to have to be patient. Fans just want a win and performance every week so it is going to be toxic until the results start to meet expectations.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Thanks for completely misunderstanding my post

I literally addressed your point at the end and you ignored it.

People are well aware about teams building in a 3-2 or 2-3 base. It's a rebuttal constantly used for people not liking this system by Amorim or other managers employing a system with wing-backs.

But you guys always ignore that those top teams using either a 3-2 or 2-3 in building up - They have wingers out wide stretching teams. Wingers and not full-backs.

 

[Cathy Ferguson]

I literally addressed your point at the end and you ignored it.

People are well aware about teams building in a 3-2 or 2-3 base. It's a rebuttal constantly used for people not liking this system by Amorim or other managers employing a system with wing-backs.

But you guys always ignore that those top teams using either a 3-2 or 2-3 in building up - They have wingers out wide stretching teams. Wingers and not full-backs.

They also have CBs comfortable on the ball. I don't mind 3 CBs per se, I think it is bad tactics if your CBs like ours are average on the ball.

3421 demands that your wingbacks are good at defending AND going forward. It also demands that your CBs can carry the ball and are above average passers. We don't have those defenders and will not sign them this summer.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

They also have CBs comfortable on the ball. I don't mind 3 CBs per se, I think it is bad tactics if your CBs like ours are average on the ball.

3421 demands that your wingbacks are good at defending AND going forward. It also demands that your CBs can carry the ball and a above average passers. We don't have those defenders and will not sign them this summer.

True, but we have some CBs that are good on the ball.

 

[CM]

They also have CBs comfortable on the ball. I don't mind 3 CBs per se, I think it is bad tactics if your CBs like ours are average on the ball.

3421 demands that your wingbacks are good at defending AND going forward. It also demands that your CBs can carry the ball and are above average passers. We don't have those defenders and will not sign them this summer.

The main issue with 3 CBs is it takes a player away from the midfield.

Winning the midfield battle is a crucial part of being successful in modern football and it's extremely difficult to do it on a regular basis with just two in there. You're also far more likely to get the balance right with 3 midfielders, you can have players who have some limitations in their game who can be successful in a three when there are other players covering for those deficiencies, but not in a two.

I still don't actually know what the benefit of the extra CB is. From what I've seen of the Amorim system, the wing backs might as well just be full backs. And I'd still much rather have the width of actual wingers than the awkward number 10 types he favours.

 

[Aleryan]

Don't need that united is playing with 3 CB.

It's more like 1 CB and 1 left back and 1 right back.

 

[Eric's-collar]

Until we improve quality of player, formation irrelevant