You said MDL was a poor progressive passer throughout his career, including at Bayern....
I give you his Bayern stats from Statman Dave, which you have rubbished as you dont like the source. I guess he just made them up???
You come back with his numbers from last year, which helps your case how? I already suggested that it’s extremely plausible that his progressive passing numbers may well have dipped due to having only two CMs to pass to now.
As you see here, his progressive passing distance has move than halved at United from his high in 22/23 at Bayern.....
Also displaying good numbers for Juve and Ajax.
Has he just become poor at United (in your opinion)? Or is he asked to pass sideways more? Or is he passing more sideways because he has fewer options than he had prior?
Also love how you decided to quote everything I said, bet selectively deleted this part......
Now , why on earth would you do that? Instead of just saying "oh, yeah, the snarky comment i made about Yoro playing under ETH, i got wrong" ???
That is a joke. Mainoo has the technical attributes to play central midfield. Go find anyone who agrees with you on this.
Is he the strongest, fittest, quickest. Maybe not. But are other midfielders that play in a three, like Mac Alister?
And if he cant do a job in the PL, why are so many clubs after him on loan? Do they think he is a scrub baller, like you do?
Again, put Kobbie in Liverpool's team, in Mac Allister's role and he would be just fine.
Are you going to argue that having Luke Shaw as a third center back helps our team more than having Mainoo as the additional man in midfield?
And you are calling Luke Shaw a less suicidal player?
This Luke Shaw?
I was there in Bilbao mate. Worst player on the pitch. His own post match comments were correct - he aint good enough for United now.
The fact he is employed as professional journalist, specialising in football tactics. What are you and I's footballing credentials?
Or, if he is not credentialed enough for you, we can look at what ex-pro's have said about Mainoo....
Owen Hargreaves
“He’s such a good player, it’s his composure on the ball... You can pass it to him anywhere. He’s going to be a proper player.”
Graeme Souness
“He’s really technical, he can take the ball in tight areas... that position will get better and better.”
Paul Scholes
“He’s the nearest thing I’ve seen to Zidane in taking a ball, receiving the ball, cruising past people.”
“Read a few comparisons between me and this kid. Don’t waste your time, he is 10 times the player I was at 19.”
Ian Wright:
“I remember seeing him in pre-season, you could just see his level with his calmness, maturity and passing, you just think wow! … In every aspect of his game… he made all the right decisions, and he was brilliant.”
Bryan Robson:
“He’s calculated and he’s reading the game… receives the ball and changes the pattern of the game, quickens it up when he wants to…”
Ok. So you telling me putting Bruno in as a 6 allows him to best use his strengths? Please explain?
We have seen in almost every game where he is asked to play there, he makes critical mistakes. The last three games where he has played there are perfect examples.....
Losing the ball in the run up to the Spurs goal in the EL final.
Playing a hospital ball to MDL in the box that lead to the Arsenal corner they scored from.
Not tracking Smith Rowe for the Fulham goal.
Three goals where Bruno fecked up in the build up. Get him as far away from our goal as possible!
That is exactly why i quoted Carl Anka when he said we are exposing players weaknesses by playing them in these midfield positions. But of course, we cant take this into account, because Carl Anka isnt an ex pro!!!!
So you are the one that has been saying that United are better off conceding their midfield. Which we are currently doing with two unsuited players in there.
What Fulham did against other teams is largely irrelevant. But if it is relevant, then is it relevant for me to say that United have won their pior 8 games at Craven Cottage?
I find it completely bizarre that Silva and Iwobi both come out on national media and tell us how easy it was to get in between United's midfield and defence, because of the 2 playing in there. Yet you seem to want to deny that was the case and talk about how it would have been no different with three men in there.
Im actually looking forward to one of the journalists askin Amorim about what the Fulham players said, as those quotes had not circulated by the time he did his post game presser v Fulham. But i expect tomorrow press will be asking about the shit show he directed v Grimsby.
There is no reason to play a low block. We have defenders with recovery pace now. Ten Hag was working with a knackered Varane, Lindelof, Maguire and Martinez, who isnt the fastest. Their gut instinct was to instantly retreat and the nearest chance of a ball coming over the top or though the lines, thus creating bigger and bigger spaces between
Having Yoro at the back allows us to push higher. Did you not see his tackle on Josh King ?
Again, im not sure why you are convinced we must sit in a low block when not playing a 5 at the back?
And lets just say we did have to sit back and played on the counter. Would that be the worst thing? We have plenty of pace across the front line now.
Would be be what we want long term? No.
Would it get us more results than Amorim's 3421 that had yielded us less points than games? More than likely.
Could it help us to build more confidence, get him through the season and further improve weaker areas like midfield when the likes of Casemiro will be gone and perhaps Bruno? Maybe.
The simple fact is, if he continues as is, he is getting sacked. So he won't get to see his 3421 with his optimum midfield two.
Listen. I agree the midfield options are not great. But taking a man out of midfield is what is suicidal. Even Grimsby expose it.
The Grimsby first goal for example. Ugarte and Amad have a mix up, Mainoo is on the left side and there is no defensive mid in place to hold the space in the middle. A DM would have at least been able to delay the attack (the first D in defending). Easy ball gets played from their midfielder to their right forward, bypassing what midfield we have....
Fredrikson knows he has a man on his shoulder free, as he looks, but decides to stay close to Maguire (as most CBs learn to) as not to leave a central gap. Dalot is nowhere to be seen. Four across the back would likley mean that Dalot was at least in the same post code as his back line. Cross comes over to the man on the left and its 1-0.
Grimsby knew exactly how to get at us. They kept playing balls in behind our wing backs.
If Grimsby know how to expose us in this system, what chance are we ever going to have?
We're trying to have about 10 conversations at once here, and most of them are off topic, so I'm gonna gloss over the tangential ones. I'm also trying to avoid this turning into a snarky and antagonistic point scoring battle. We've both been guilty of getting a bit heated with this, so apologies for my part.
You're right about MDL. Statman Dave is an awful source, but it's a fair point about previous clubs. I was going from memory and Bundesliga fan comments rather than looking at any objective evidence. However, it remains to be seen if he's capable in the PL, given how much less time on the ball you get and how much more pressure defenders are placed under. Whether he's capable is, as you put it previously, theoretical, although the recent evidence suggests strongly that he isn't.
Fulham's recent results at home against top teams aren't irrelevant, they go to show how difficult a place it is to go, their squad is almost identical to last season. Fulham beating runaway champions Liverpool 4 months ago, using the same system and with only 2 changes to the starting lineup, is undoubtedly more relevant than back 8 years is far less relevant, as neither team looks anything like the historical ones. They're a very difficult team to beat at home, 7 of last season's top 10 failed to do so. Surely you can accept that?
Regarding Luke Shaw, the unfit version we had in the EL final is rubbish, no doubt. The fully fit and in form one we've had at multiple times during his career here is an absolutely brilliant player.
Our main point of contention is Mainoo, as frankly you're massively overrating him, the core of your argument seems to be to add him in midfield to make a 3 and we'll just get better. It's telling that you were able to find real evidence to back up your point about MDL, while you're relying on quotes from pundits for Mainoo. Pounding the facts there, pounding the table here. Scholes was similarly glowing about Januzaj, for example. The things I've claimed Mainoo isn't good at are because he statistically isn't good at them. He does receive the ball on the half turn really well, and carries it fairly well, but that's where the headlines end. He has potential, for sure, but right now he's slow, gives the ball away far too much, and lacks fitness. He probably could do a job in central midfield in a slower, less physical league, but in the premier league you either need to have the athleticism to match the opposition or an overwhelming technical advantage to make up for it. Mainoo has neither.
You say he'd slot in happily instead of Mac Allister, presumably as he has the same weaknesses, but it wouldn't work because he doesn't have any of the strengths; he lacks anywhere near the same level of passing ability or ball retention. Nor does he have the positional awareness. Liverpool's midfield would become much worse overnight, and they'd be in the transfer market looking for a replacement. Here's a comparison of both players:
Mainoo can carry the ball a little better, and is a much better dribbler, which is the main thing he's really good at, but plays much fewer passes, vastly fewer progressive passes, has few touches, and is way behind when it comes to breaking up opposition play, winning the ball back, or anything to do with goal creation.
Your point about Bruno losing the ball deep is absolutely correct. This is another aspect that you're arguing against a point I'm not making. He doesn't have good enough ball retention either, it's why I've repeatedly said that none of our midfielders are good enough. But given that you clearly recognise how bad it is when midfielders are sloppy about giving the ball away, you have to see that playing an at best equally sloppy player in Mainoo isn't going to improve us. Bruno's best position is further forward, where he can take risks on the ball without it being so damaging to us. Mainoo's is the same. Neither are central midfielders.
As for the Grimsby match, it was awful, but suggesting that playing in a 4 would fix Dalot, given that we've seen him be awful in a 4 for years now, is just silly. Playing a 4-3-3 wouldn't change our defensive shape at all really, the fullbacks would be expected to push forward, but rather than 3 centre backs at centre back we'd have 2 centre backs and whoever is operating as the 6.
You're trying to attribute everything that goes wrong to the system, but what Grimsby did to beat us is the same thing that happens in all giant-killings; they ran like madmen, spurred on by the crowd, and took advantage of mistakes. Not everything is a tactical masterclass, this was a case of one team playing the biggest match of their lives against a second string team who wilted under the pressure.