We're trying to have about 10 conversations at once here, and most of them are off topic, so I'm gonna gloss over the tangential ones. I'm also trying to avoid this turning into a snarky and antagonistic point scoring battle. We've both been guilty of getting a bit heated with this, so apologies for my part.
You're right about MDL. Statman Dave is an awful source, but it's a fair point about previous clubs. I was going from memory and Bundesliga fan comments rather than looking at any objective evidence. However, it remains to be seen if he's capable in the PL, given how much less time on the ball you get and how much more pressure defenders are placed under. Whether he's capable is, as you put it previously, theoretical, although the recent evidence suggests strongly that he isn't.
You have gone from stating he have always been a poor progressive passer, to "it remains to be seen if he's capable in the PL".
Where is the "
recent evidence suggests strongly that he isn't" ?
Do you not think the issue may be that this system and manager is asking him to play side to side more often? Rather than making those passes between lines, he is asked to pass along the back, with the eventual aim of working it out to the flanks.
United, under Amorim almost NEVER progress the ball through the midfield. In part because of personal, but in part because we are 3v2 in the midfield.
Casemiro and Ugarte don't ever want to show for the ball from their CBs. You know who will though?....
Fulham's recent results at home against top teams aren't irrelevant, they go to show how difficult a place it is to go, their squad is almost identical to last season. Fulham beating runaway champions Liverpool 4 months ago, using the same system and with only 2 changes to the starting lineup, is undoubtedly more relevant than back 8 years is far less relevant, as neither team looks anything like the historical ones. They're a very difficult team to beat at home, 7 of last season's top 10 failed to do so. Surely you can accept that?
Fulham won 7 of 19 homes games last year - hardly a fortress!
Regarding Luke Shaw, the unfit version we had in the EL final is rubbish, no doubt. The fully fit and in form one we've had at multiple times during his career here is an absolutely brilliant player.
You can't count on Luke Shaw. History tells us that. He has not been that player for at least four years. So much so, we have had to find a new possition for him.
It is Luke Shaw who would be the one i would take out of the 3421 and replace with Mainoo as a midfielder in a 433 / 4231.
Our main point of contention is Mainoo, as frankly you're massively overrating him, the core of your argument seems to be to add him in midfield to make a 3 and we'll just get better. It's telling that you were able to find real evidence to back up your point about MDL, while you're relying on quotes from pundits for Mainoo. Pounding the facts there, pounding the table here. Scholes was similarly glowing about Januzaj, for example. The things I've claimed Mainoo isn't good at are because he statistically isn't good at them. He does receive the ball on the half turn really well, and carries it fairly well, but that's where the headlines end. He has potential, for sure, but right now he's slow, gives the ball away far too much, and lacks fitness. He probably could do a job in central midfield in a slower, less physical league, but in the premier league you either need to have the athleticism to match the opposition or an overwhelming technical advantage to make up for it. Mainoo has neither.
No, i don't massively overate Mainoo. He has a lot to prove, especially post injury. He is a very good young player, when played in the right role and alongside players who can help to enhance his strengths and cover for his weaknesses.
The two man midfield does not help to "enhance his strengths and cover for his weaknesses". It doesn't help any of our four midfielders.
Yet you have continued to say Mainoo is a poor player and earlier said he "
isn't very good at passing". You then challenged me to find quotes from players to confirm he was a good passer.
I supply, you reject - which is the ongoing theme of this convo.
This is exactly why other in the Caf give you this kind of feedback.....
@The Hilton systematically taken apart over his absolute garbage.
Always seems like a poster pulling shit out of his arse to be fair.
And why numerus posters have said i have been bang on thought this convo.
You're not an honest broker. Always moving the goalposts when you are shown to be wrong.
You say he'd slot in happily instead of Mac Allister, presumably as he has the same weaknesses, but it wouldn't work because he doesn't have any of the strengths; he lacks anywhere near the same level of passing ability or ball retention. Nor does he have the positional awareness. Liverpool's midfield would become much worse overnight, and they'd be in the transfer market looking for a replacement. Here's a comparison of both players:
Mainoo can carry the ball a little better, and is a much better dribbler, which is the main thing he's really good at, but plays much fewer passes, vastly fewer progressive passes, has few touches, and is way behind when it comes to breaking up opposition play, winning the ball back, or anything to do with goal creation.
And this is also very dishonest to compare Mac Allister over the last 365 days, who plays for a title winning side, surrounded by elite players, all at the top of their games, in a fully functioning midfield that works in their managers overall system.
To Mainoo over the last 365, injured for a large part of last season, in an out of the side, in a team that won 11 games in the PL, had two managers, playing with other midfielders who you have told me are unfit for PL football, in a midfield two, asked to play in several positions including false 9 and only 20 years old.
Do you see how that may be a somewhat problematic and unfair comparison?
Your point about Bruno losing the ball deep is absolutely correct. This is another aspect that you're arguing against a point I'm not making. He doesn't have good enough ball retention either, it's why I've repeatedly said that none of our midfielders are good enough. But given that you clearly recognise how bad it is when midfielders are sloppy about giving the ball away, you have to see that playing an at best equally sloppy player in Mainoo isn't going to improve us. Bruno's best position is further forward, where he can take risks on the ball without it being so damaging to us. Mainoo's is the same. Neither are central midfielders.
Amorim has four options for two positions. If you are saying that Mainoo and Bruno are not central midfielders, you are by default, advocating for Casemiro and Ugarte.
But hang on, you said earlier that Casemiro and Ugarte are not fit for PL football and that that neither can last 60 mins?
So what is the solution?
Mine would be Mainoo alongside one of Casemiro and Ugarte with Bruno further forward, with instruction to track back and make a three when out of possession.
Is it ideal? No.
Is Mainoo best suited for that role? No.
Is it better than deploying any two of the four options we have in Amorim two man midfield system. Yes.
Does is give Amorim some opportunity to at least get some results, hang on to his job and buy better midfielders down the line? Maybe.
If he continues on with his midfield two, nothing will change.
And as has been discussed, the sacrifice in taking out the midfielder is not worth the gain in having an extra CB when it is Luke Shaw (for his ball progression skills and to cover for Dorgu), or having wing backs that can push higher when they are Amad and Dorgu. One of whom is not a wing back and the other is massively insoncistant and unproductive.
As for the Grimsby match, it was awful, but suggesting that playing in a 4 would fix Dalot, given that we've seen him be awful in a 4 for years now, is just silly.
Dalot would not have been where he was as Grimsby broke for their first goal, had we been playing in a 433. He is nearly as far forward as Sesko.....
Playing a 4-3-3 wouldn't change our defensive shape at all really, the fullbacks would be expected to push forward, but rather than 3 centre backs at centre back we'd have 2 centre backs and whoever is operating as the 6.
Having someone to play that 6 and sit in front of the back four would help us massively. We then wouldn't be open to concerning these kind of goals where one pass splits our midfield two....
Soucek gets to run 30 yards unoposed and make the easy pass to Bowen, who knows to move into the space between CB and wing back.....
Have a DM in there to cover Soucek and that goal doesn't happen.
You're trying to attribute everything that goes wrong to the system, but what Grimsby did to beat us is the same thing that happens in all giant-killings; they ran like madmen, spurred on by the crowd, and took advantage of mistakes. Not everything is a tactical masterclass, this was a case of one team playing the biggest match of their lives against a second string team who wilted under the pressure.
Yes, they did run their arses off. But it is not what happens "in all giant-killings" as you say.
In most giant killings, the lower league team nick a goal and hang on for dear life. Grimsby were good value for 2-0 at half time. Could have had a third before the half and should have definitely had a third with the offside goal being disallowed.
Not only did they identify that we were weak at playing out of the back, they knew they could play though our two midfielders quicky, or just hit those balls in behind the wing back over and over again. In exactly the same way PL teams do.
At least he doesn’t say ‘believe’
