Yes, in the same way that the club has prioritised signing a young goalkeeper with more of an eye on the future rather than signing an expensive quick fix. You are in support of that in terms of a signing, but seemingly not in terms of a manager bringing in a new system? As a club we were absolutely fecked this time last year, with a host of players with poor attitudes and/or poor ability - largely through the atrocious signings of the Ten Hag era. Was the correct thing to put a band-aid over that just in order to see out the season in relative comfort, or to start a rebuild for the future there and then, ripping off the plaster and digging out the rotting flesh?
Ruben Amorim | 2025-26
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Oh yeah, I forgot *facepalm*
Highlighting expensive quick fix from your comment above, as that may have been the deciding factor here.
Expensive quick fixes don't always pan out. Casemiro?
Was there the money to take Martinez on a relatively big salary and for £30mil ? You will have to tell me.
As per yesterday's Athletic article re Martinez.....
The financials of a deal always appeared implausible. Martinez earns more than Onana based on his contract signed last summer, running to 2029, and Villa would have demanded a transfer fee in excess of £30m.
You have to consider that would be allocating circa £400k a week on salary for four goalkeepers, plus £80mil in recent transfer fees, all with a current PSR hit given they were signed recently. I also read/heard (sorry cant find link) but the payment terms for Lammens suited United.
It is never a binary choice. So many factors have to go into the mix.
How does a change of system relate to removing the deadwood?
Are you saying that we can only have the clear out of players with a 3421 manager or new system?
A manager couldn't have come in post ETH, played a familiar system to at least give us a better chance of getting up the table and maybe into Europe, then removed the deadwood in the summer?
Or even Amorim adapting to the players he had, rather than trying to change the tyres while the car is moving?
Did you go on forums criticizing Van Gaal for falling on the touchline in front of the ref ?
Against Grimsby Town? I don’t think it was the board per se but the league 2 opposition plus the board that created the meme environment.
No, that was a Manchester United manager standing up (figuratively speaking) for his players against the match officials, in his own idiosyncratic way. It was funny, but at the same time getting his point across.
I'd rather that than hiding in the dugout!
It'll be a "him" problem if he keeps it up, I can't imagine Ratcliffe is overly impressed by it.
Hang on, you seem to be misunderstanding me. I wasn't saying that I have a problem with going for the longer term option (although I do think it will probably bite us in the short term). I was pointing out that you are very much in favour of playing the long game with the goalkeeper, but seemingly not with an entire rebuild of the squad/team?
Nope, I'm saying that the two things are not mutually exclusive. You bring a manager in to oversee a rebuild and you have to accept that that includes his system (assuming he uses a different one to the preceeding manager). Can you imagine bringing Mourinho in and asking him to continue with LVG's possession style? Or appointing Pep and telling him 'no tika-taka till next season'? It's just a nonsense and no manager in the world would agree to it. Unless it has escaped your notice we did actually qualify for a European final last season, and whilst we ere pretty shite we were a damn sight better than Spurs, who managed to fluke the game without having a single shot on target.
Genuine question, is half a season really that big of a deal? Are fans really so spoiled that they can't accept half a season in the doldrums - even though they accepted at the beginning of that period that our squad was not fit for purpose and there were multiple players with attitude problems stinking up the place? People are so wedded to the views that they nailed to the mast last season (in some cases after just a couple of months) that they couldn't even acknowledge that we were the better team against Arsenal, or that our attacking stats for the first 3 games are impressive, or that they can see any improvement whatsoever. It's bullshit.
It did which shows how stupid the meme was and people who agreed with it. Looking at your tactics and using a board or iPad are valid regardless of the opposition. It’s disrespectful to Grimsby to suggest otherwise imo, same as people saying we shouldn’t need to look at the tactics against them.
the 'meme environment'??!! Who gives a feck.
Speaking of Grimsby, have they won a game since beating us?
As mentioned yesterday, 5 games into last season we were 3rd for xg and big chances created so at this stage they don't really mean much.
The overall performance and structure of the team for me is more important. Whilst a decent performance against Arsenal, that isn't a deviation from last season (and we still lost). We had decent performances vs Arsenal and City. I think the fact we had that performance, then followed it up with those performances vs Fulham, Grimsby and Burnley that were not really that different from last season under Amorim (bar Cunha and Mbuemo looking better) for me shows its more of the same from last season.
The same tactical flaws are there i.e. the CAMs being isolated, pretty much having a back 5 rather than a back 3, so much space either side of the CMs, no service to the centre forward, poor defensively despite having 4/5 defenders and decent ones at that. Overall, its more of the same just with Cunha and Mbuemo looking better.
So from the PL games you have watched... which game did you think... wow Manutd are terrible at the back.
Did Arsenal get into our box and create loads? Did Fulham or Burnley?
Also... I recall Sesko against Burnley having 2/3 headed chances in the last 10 minutes... so this notion that he gets no service is flawed.
I would be surprised if Ratcliffe is more concerned with the angle of Amorim's recline in a chair than his results.
Quite surprised and amused you're still going on about it.
True, but progress typically comes before the results.
It does but when is the last time 5 in a row was donw
Disrespecting Grimsby Town is the last thing I’d ever do. As far as this tactics board thing goes, I wasn’t one of the people using it as a rod for his back; I was commenting on why some people thought it was meme-worthy (or ridiculous on its face).
For me there’s all of Amorim’s time in charge to use as fuel for wanting him out. The memes were funny though and somewhat softened the ignominious blow of losing to mighty Grimsby.
Arsenal as mentioned was a decent performance (similar to last season), vs the others pretty much all the goals were poor defensively from us, especially vs Grimbsy and Burnley. We are playing 5 at the back yet still give up poor goals and for a trade off that doesn't really exist. Additionally its plain to see that both our CAMs get isolated, pretty much anybody who gets the ball near the wing gets isolated. We don't consistently create chances for our striker, regardless who it is. This isn't an outlandish observation.
As mentioned, the very same flaws from last season still appear to be there. Maybe they will disappear after the international break. However, I doubt it.
A long time but that's not the point, because we've lost so many earlier, it's going to look shit for quite some time even if we win loads from now on
The last thing?
No misunderstanding at all. Im saying that there is more to it that than getting the experienced guy v the younger one. Price being a big factor, current roster and money dedicated to that possition another. Especially given that this was a relative last minute call to get a keeper.
Plus, the technical aspects of the keepers, which will have been studied by those making the call. They obviously see things in Lammens they like and will have done their homework on him.
There is this assumption that Lammens will need a long bedding in period and that Martinez was good to go from day one. Last i saw Martinez play, he lasted for 40 mins before getting sent off by rushing out and fouling one of the one of the worst strikers in the league and contributing to his team losing out on a CL place. Yet, he is the steady hand we need?
Again, do we need to play the long game with him? Time will tell.
Nor did i ever say that im very much in favour of either option. Simply saying that there is more to this keeper decision than just youth v experience.
I agree that the squad needed an overhaul, no doubt. We had a poor mix of players. Old, injured, overpaid, undisciplined, unmotivated and in many cases just not good enough. But despite that, we were not a 15th place team. There was enough talent in there that two seasons earlier had managed to finish 3rd.
But the issue is that Amorim exasperated those issues, mid season, by asking that bunch to play a different system and a different formation, that further exposed the weakness of many.... No wing backs at the club - so lets play wing backs. Midfield a weakness - so lets pull a man out of there. Need a striker that can hold up the ball? Yeah, let's just keep banging it upto Hojlund and watch him try and tussle with center backs until he has no confidence left. Need 10s that are dynamic, quick and can defend as well as attack - sounds like a job for Zirkzee!
The point of sacking a manager, especially midseason, is that you think he isn't getting the most out of his players. So the objective is for a new manager to get more from them. Not to start his rebuild in November when we cant add new players - especially when he needed so many unique profiles. More of a criticism there of Barrada for going for a manager that was so dogmatic.
And if the feeling was that the squad was the issue, then why sack the manager?
It is even more damning when you say that Spurs were even shitter than us.
We can laugh at the now unemployed Big Ange, but the guy put his ego and his philosophy to one side and did what he needed to do to get the win. Got the got by hook or by crook and parked the bus. Challenged us to break Spurs down - a team strong at CB and CM. We couldn't and why would you expect a team who averaged 1.125 league goals per game United Amorim last season to do so?
Amorim put himself and his philosophy before the potential success of the club and went with the same system that led to losses to Spurs twice prior that year. Same approach, same result.
You brought up Mourinho earlier. Wouldn't he have done exactly what he needed to do to win a final ? Why is our manager above that?
Even ETH did to beat City in the FA Cup - he left his £75mil striker on the bench in that game. A year later that same striker is in the worst form imaginable, but it is system first for Amorim, so he cant adapt for a one off game. But hey, forget that, because it is all about the rebuild!
Amorim actually got closer to 2/3 of the season, but still. It is, because the failure runs into the following season.
Many are advocating for the more experienced, more expensive keeper. Amorim himself wanted Martinez according to The Athletic. He may well have got that, plus a midfilder, had he finished in a European place, or better still won the EL and qualified for the CL.
Finish 7th rather than 15th and we are at least £75mil better off from PL prize money and future gate receipts from having European games, plus European Competition Prize money.
So in summary, i'm not advocating for the signing off Lammens, but going with a keeper that may need more of a bedding in period than a PL proven one, is very much different to asking your team to start your rebuild mid season.
Honestly what’s the point of bringing in a system manager then telling him to not play said system for the rest of the season just because the players may not be up to it, but to wait and change it in the summer. It’s just not going to happen. If that’s the approach then wait abd sign him in the summer - which is what Amorim actually originally wanted but the board shut down. Utterly pointless blaming the manager for doing what the club knew was going to happen when they hired him.
The benefit of changing the system last year is now the bulk of this team has had 2/3 of a season slowly adjusting to it instead of starting cold right now. Anyone advocating for the change of system now rather than when he joined is too focused on the short term rather than building for the future.
This has all already been discussed at length last year. The fact early on this year we’re seeing some progress (albeit small sample size) is potential testament to the fact it was the right approach - otherwise we’d be waiting another half year to make similar progress
The benefit of changing the system last year is now the bulk of this team has had 2/3 of a season slowly adjusting to it instead of starting cold right now. Anyone advocating for the change of system now rather than when he joined is too focused on the short term rather than building for the future.
This has all already been discussed at length last year. The fact early on this year we’re seeing some progress (albeit small sample size) is potential testament to the fact it was the right approach - otherwise we’d be waiting another half year to make similar progress
I love talking tactics, can you dive deeper into what about his tactics are so rigid? Note, I asked about tactics, not the formation.
1 goal in 9 years is still pretty dreadful to be fair.
One day it'll happen again
Game vs Arsenal and first halves against Fulham and Burnley make we hopeful. First half at Grimsby and second halves vs Fulham and Burnley make me doubtful.
There will be 4 games until next International break: City (A), Chelsea (H), Brentford (A), Sunderland (H). We'll need some good performances but more important good results.
That’s a brutal 4 games after the break. I genuinely think we will get something from each. The Chelsea game is the one that worries me most.
How many words do you reckon you've written in this thread in the last 7 days? An absolutely ridiculous amount. And to do what? Argue that our manager is shit? Even though performances are showing improvement? Why do you care so much about trying to convince others that everything is shit? (by the way, these are all rhetorical questions, for gawd's sake don't actually answer them or we'll be here all night...;-))
It's pretty much make or break once we get back from the break. We definitely need results, but more importantly we need to see more from these tactics. Lets see how it goes, maybe Amorim surprises us.
How many times since you piped in, are you going to spout mistruths about what i'm saying?
You spout so many, that it does take a while to correct them.
Really hope he makes me eat the humble pie.
That was hilarious and lives in my head rent free to this day, along with “Mike Smalling” and “It’s not so easy…”
What would you consider success there, 7+ points?
The Sex Masochism interview as well
Van Gaal was great at press conferences, like David Lynch with coaching badges. I hated his Subbuteo-style dogmatic style on the pitch, but he was hilarious.
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