Ruben Amorim | 2025-26

[MUEricTheKing]

The problem is we may well have invested in the wrong philosophy. If we appointed Sean Dyche and he averaged 1 point per game across his first 30 games, would you be suggesting the club give him more time to implement his identity?

I'm just not sure why we settled on doing this rebuild with a manager who plays a system that is so clearly not suited to the squad he inherited, and there is no obvious benefits to rebuilding the squad in his image. Only one team has won the PL with a back 3 in the last 32 years. All the best club sides you can think of in the last 20 years who were considered the best side around, who won league/CL doubles etc. are back 4 sides - Bayern under Heynckes/Flick, Barca under Pep/Enrique, PSG Enrique, United Ferguson, Zidane/Ancelotti Madrid, Pep's City, Klopp's Liverpool. Ultimately the responsibility for this mess is on whoever appointed him, it's not really Amorim's fault that he's trying to do what he does.

At some point you have to ask, is a manager who's averaging relegation level points totals across his first 30 league games, really going to win you a league title further down the line? Or is having us playing like relegation fodder a sign that he just doesn't have what it takes?

Fans can understand and accept imperfection in the early days, but they don't understand picking up relegation fodder level points totals and then pretending that this is going to end in a fairytale league title win in the future. It just seems unlikely.

That’s a really fair challenge, and I think it gets to the heart of the Amorim debate.

First off, if we’d hired Sean Dyche and he was averaging a point a game, no, I don’t think many would be arguing to give him unlimited time – but that’s because the ceiling of a Dyche project is obvious. You know exactly what you’re going to get: organisation, fight, direct football, maybe some cup runs, maybe even overachievement into Europe if everything clicks. But nobody is under the illusion that Dyche-ball is going to carry you to a Premier League or Champions League title. It’s a safe floor, but a low ceiling.

With Amorim, the calculation is different. His system isn’t a “win a few games, scrap your way to mid-table respectability” identity. It’s a system that, when executed with the right players, has already produced dominant football in Portugal and a genuine European-level side at Sporting on a fraction of our resources. He’s not here to grind; he’s here to build something scalable. That’s why his points tally alone, taken out of context, is misleading. He came into a squad that was in pieces, ripped it away from the transitional, reactive football it was used to, and imposed a model that demands coordination, intensity, and different profiles in key positions. That doesn’t click overnight, but if it does, the upside is so much higher than with a stop-gap pragmatist.

On the “back three doesn’t win titles” argument – it’s a bit of a red herring. First, Conte literally won the league with a back three at Chelsea not long ago. Second, formations are fluid. Pep’s City often look like a 3-2-4-1 in possession, Klopp’s Liverpool at times the same, Ancelotti’s Madrid too. What matters isn’t the starting graphic on Sky Sports but the principles: how many lines you occupy, how you defend transitions, how you create overloads in midfield. Amorim’s system can morph – he’s shown it at Sporting – and if the recruitment is smart, it can be closer to what the “back four champions” have done in practice than people realise.

The real issue isn’t whether the back three in theory can win a league. It’s whether United, with the resources we have and the patience required, are willing to follow through on one clear vision rather than chopping and changing. Every single one of the dynasties you’ve listed – Pep’s City, Klopp’s Liverpool, Pep’s Barca, Zidane’s Madrid – were built on alignment between coach and club for years. We haven’t given a coach that runway in over a decade. So yes, Amorim’s points-per-game looks ugly right now, but if you bail on him for that reason alone, you’re essentially confirming the cycle: hire, reset, rip up, start again, blame the manager.

You’re right that it’s not Amorim’s fault he was appointed. It’s the club’s choice to go for a high-ceiling, system-heavy coach instead of a pragmatic firefighter. But having made that choice, the only rational thing is to see it through properly. If by the end of this season the football still looks like relegation fodder and the underlying metrics haven’t improved, then fair enough – maybe he isn’t the guy. But three months into the new season, after inheriting a broken squad mid-year, is far too early to make that call.

So for me, it’s not about pretending we’re watching a future title-winning side right now – we’re clearly not. It’s about recognising that the early pain is the price of entry if you want to build a structure that could get you there. The alternative is safe mediocrity. And I think most United fans, deep down, would rather take the risk on something ambitious than settle for that.

 

[7even]

This suggests that long term success is inevitable.

If the game was as simple as stick with an underperforming manager for years and eventually he'll win you a league title, I dare say clubs might have figured that out by now.

If Sean Dyche had been appointed and was averaging 1 point per game over 30 game sample, would we be best sticking with him because it takes time for him to implement the way he wants to play?


What we really have to ask ourselves is, is the manager who has us averaging relegation level points totals across his first 30 league games, likely to win us a league title in the next few years?

It seems likely to me that a manager who was going to win us a league title eventually, might be performing a little bit better than this in his early days, even if it wasn't perfect.

This is a flawed argument when this has been the go to answer for every manager since Louis Van Gaal! He was sacked almost a decade ago!

Every manager with a priority to remove player power, get rid of some toxic elements, change the recruitment process and long term lower the wage bill will initially suffer results wise.

Just looking at what kind of formation Amorin use and only judge his results on the pitch doesn’t paint the whole picture of what the the new owners are doing at the moment. Their long term project is to transform the whole structure around the club.

Getting rid of underperforming high earners, the negativity that was hovering over the squad, some too old, some not fit enough and at the same time change the recruitment process where we sign mostly sign young inexperienced talents will short term create instability and growing pains. It has nothing to do with formation or tactics. Most of our new players are talented enough to play all different systems, regardless of who’s the manager.

Amorim has his own philosophy with a 3421 formation and the underlying stats from this seasons first three PL games shows that we’re creating more goal scoring opportunities together with more possession. We’re still suffering from defensive instability and especially the goalkeepers weak actions on set pieces. Hopefully our new keeper will change that.

I think that we’re only three, maybe four players away from taking the next step and challenging the better teams.
Be patient.

Let Amorin continue his rebuild, have a little trust in the process and we will see where we’re next summer.

 

[Gordon'sHill]

Every manager with a priority to remove player power, get rid of some toxic elements, change the recruitment process and long term lower the wage bill will initially suffer results wise.

Just looking at what kind of formation Amorin use and only judge his results on the pitch doesn’t paint the whole picture of what the the new owners are doing at the moment. Their long term project is to transform the whole structure around the club.

Getting rid of underperforming high earners, the negativity that was hovering over the squad, some too old, some not fit enough and at the same time change the recruitment process where we sign mostly sign young inexperienced talents will short term create instability and growing pains. It has nothing to do with formation or tactics. Most of our new players are talented enough to play all different systems, regardless of who’s the manager.

Amorim has his own philosophy with a 3421 formation and the underlying stats shows from this seasons first three PL games shows that we’re creating more goal scoring opportunities together with more possession. We’re still suffering from defensive instability and especially the goalkeepers weak actions on set pieces. Hopefully our new keeper will change that.

I think that we’re only three, maybe four players away from taking the nest step and challenging the better teams.
Be patient.
Let Amorin continue his rebuild, have a little trust in the process and we will see where we’re next summer.

I think you and many confuse two things. What United have never had, even under Fergie, was a proper football management structure. These clubs are so vast now with so much happening, the days of an all powerful manager are long gone. Ratcliffe has only partially delivered on his promise to put this in place, sacking the DOF after a few weeks in favour of listening to the commercial guy who is CEO. However, Ratcliffe takes no nonsense and can see the mess of the squad and failed players on massive wages doing little. He and the management team are driving the clear out while hopefully brining in better signings.

Amorim probably agrees with most or all of this, but is not driving this. He is the coach. WE should be like the best run clubs where we obsess a lot less about coaches, and build a better squad each window. If the coach cannot take the next step, you get a better one. Thats the evolution City followed to perfection. Our stats seem better than our overall performance this season. Yes its better than last season, but lets be clear what Amorim delivered is absolute relegation form. No top manager in the last 15 plus years has ever been wedded to one rigid tactical approach and set up. It suggests a lack of real understanding of the game and an inability to think quickly and react to situations. Both Fulham and even Grimsby have shown how easy it is to stop us playing at times. If you read about Sporting this is not a surprise. In bigger games they often struggled to build attacks and retain possession, and on occasion went 30 minutes without a shot on goal.

 

[romufc]

If you read about Sporting this is not a surprise. In bigger games they often struggled to build attacks and retain possession, and on occasion went 30 minutes without a shot on goal.

On occassions, I have seen City, Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal this season in big games go 30 mins without a shot... does it make their managers bad?

 

[Gordon'sHill]

If we try to look at the situation with Amorim a bit more calmly, the key point is understanding why he was brought in and what he is trying to build. He arrived mid-season when the club was already in deep trouble, and from day one he made it clear that he would implement his system and philosophy immediately – even if it meant things might look worse before they got better. That’s exactly how most top coaches operate. Just imagine if Guardiola had come to United instead of City – would he really have put his football identity on hold for six months to play pure counterattacks just to scrape some quick points? Of course not. If you believe in your principles, you start the work straight away so that players learn the patterns, the club learns which profiles fit, and recruitment can be aligned as quickly as possible.

The criticism that Amorim should have been more “pragmatic” has a surface logic, but in reality it often just delays the pain. What he maybe could have done better was stage the riskiest elements of his game model more carefully – for example, tightening the rest-defence structure or being less aggressive with pressing triggers in the first weeks. But that’s a question of degree, not philosophy.

So the way forward now isn’t to throw the whole project into doubt every time we drop points. The club needs to give him a proper runway through the first half of the season with clear markers of progress: controlling games better, cutting down the cheap goals conceded in transition, improving the balance in midfield, and creating more consistent attacking patterns. Recruitment also has to back the system – the biggest hole is still a true ball-winning, press-resistant defensive midfielder who can cover ground and anchor the shape, and that has to be the top priority in January.

The goalkeeper situation needs simplifying as well – there’s no sense carrying three or four options at once without a clear hierarchy. Pick a number one, develop Lammens gradually, and cut the noise. The squad overall is still in transition, and if Amorim is constantly firefighting media narratives about keepers, formations, and “should he be pragmatic,” then the actual football suffers.

In short, the right thing for United to do is stay the course. Amorim has made it very clear what kind of football he wants to play, and we’re already seeing glimpses of it in phases of games. The squad isn’t perfectly built for it yet, but the only way out of the endless cycle of tearing things up every 18 months is to actually hold our nerve, accept the bumps, and judge him properly once he’s had a full season and a couple of windows to shape the team. That’s the grown-up route. Anything else is just pressing reset all over again.

Again this is horribly simplistic. We talk about his 'philosophy' like he is Socrates or some kind of modern saint. He is a football coach, he doesn't have a philosophy. What he has is a single formation and rigid tactical approach that he follows all the time, whether its Liverpool or Grimsby. It was well know flaws that were evident in Portugal and more so in the PL. Sporting had well know flaws if the wing back were shut down and his approach is not to control the ball, so often in big games they had limited possession and struggled to build attacks. Without the Gyokeres factor I am not sure he would be here. No other top coach has ever shown such rigidity, none of them. List any you want and they all evolved and were flexible. Indeed, flexibility is perhaps the single biggest mantra of modern coaching.

Yes the club was a mess, but managers come into other clubs and make improvements. Look at Everton or Palace last season. But those managers dont have 'philosophies'. Pep has also adjusted his tactics and certainly formations over the years and will continue to do, it looks like they may be more direct this season.

Amorim is not the 'whole project'. He is not even the project. He is the coach. INEOS and their admittedly imperfect management team and clearing out the overpaid deadwood and looking to improve our transfers. If we need a new coach, so be it, hopefully he will inherit a better squad and so the process continues. Why is everyone so obsessed with the cult of the manager? No other top clubs are

 

[Gordon'sHill]

On occassions, I have seen City, Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal this season in big games go 30 mins without a shot... does it make their managers bad?

Its not a common occurrence. Can you name those games? Were they ahead at those points in the match? My point is there are clear flaws in the rigid tactical system of Amorim that can make it hard to build attacks. I think it was also far more than 30 minutes for Sporting but would need to go and find that article. Meanwhile, all kneel before the new messiah.

 

[erikcred]

Again this is horribly simplistic. We talk about his 'philosophy' like he is Socrates or some kind of modern saint. He is a football coach, he doesn't have a philosophy. What he has is a single formation and rigid tactical approach that he follows all the time, whether its Liverpool or Grimsby. It was well know flaws that were evident in Portugal and more so in the PL. Sporting had well know flaws if the wing back were shut down and his approach is not to control the ball, so often in big games they had limited possession and struggled to build attacks. Without the Gyokeres factor I am not sure he would be here. No other top coach has ever shown such rigidity, none of them. List any you want and they all evolved and were flexible. Indeed, flexibility is perhaps the single biggest mantra of modern coaching.

Yes the club was a mess, but managers come into other clubs and make improvements. Look at Everton or Palace last season. But those managers dont have 'philosophies'. Pep has also adjusted his tactics and certainly formations over the years and will continue to do, it looks like they may be more direct this season.

Amorim is not the 'whole project'. He is not even the project. He is the coach. INEOS and their admittedly imperfect management team and clearing out the overpaid deadwood and looking to improve our transfers. If we need a new coach, so be it, hopefully he will inherit a better squad and so the process continues. Why is everyone so obsessed with the cult of the manager? No other top clubs are

Almost our entire domestic success is due to two managers. It's understandable that we're desperately hoping that every next manager is the third in that sequence.

Amorim is also feeding into that with the "I want to be here for 20 years".

 

[romufc]

Its not a common occurrence. Can you name those games? Were they ahead at those points in the match? My point is there are clear flaws in the rigid tactical system of Amorim that can make it hard to build attacks. I think it was also far more than 30 minutes for Sporting but would need to go and find that article. Meanwhile, all kneel before the new messiah.

Liverpool v Arsenal - Both teams in each half
City v Spurs this season - City didnt manage a shot

I get it you hate the manager, its fine.

There is a difference between wanting him to prove himself, which alot of fans are looking at this season, and just hating everything he does, because you dont like him.

 

[DJ_21]

No we haven’t.

I’m okay with giving him more time but don’t be absurd.

So the 4-0 against Everton last year wasn’t tearing a team apart? We dominated city 2nd half last season and came back and won. We battered Arsenal but got unlucky. Open your eyes man… just because we’re not doing these things consistently it doesn’t mean we haven’t

 

[erikcred]

So the 4-0 against Everton last year wasn’t tearing a team apart? We dominated city 2nd half last season and came back and won. We battered Arsenal but got unlucky. Open your eyes man… just because we’re not doing these things consistently it doesn’t mean we haven’t

West Ham under Moyes has far more scattered instances of "tearing a team apart".

Let's not exaggerate here. Most teams in the league can tear any team apart on their day. City under Guardiola has lost heavily to many teams. Liverpool under Klopp lost 7-1 to Villa, and so on.

Pointing to fewer than five instances across 30 games is not the same as "We’ve shown we can win with this system and we’ve shown we can tear teams apart with it."

There's hyperbole and then there's whatever you're trying to do.

 

[Glorio]

More....

This here is why I'm willing to be patient.
This is different to blind hope - the performances and data indicate promising times ahead.

The story with Klopp was always that even though Liverpool's results were all over the place when he joined, you could see what he was trying to do and the data backed him.

It's similar here and now (ignoring last season which was a car crash). I've not agreed with everything he's done, but if you take a step back and look at our PL performances and what the data tells us, there's a strong argument for patience

You don't stay high on this collection of stats without climbing the table at some point. Let's see if we can maintain those numbers though as 3 games is not a significant sample size for me.

 

[red_de_pologne]

This here is why I'm willing to be patient.
This is different to blind hope - the performances and data indicate promising times ahead.

The story with Klopp was always that even though Liverpool's results were all over the place when he joined, you could see what he was trying to do and the data backed him.

It's similar here and now (ignoring last season which was a car crash). I've not agreed with everything he's done, but if you take a step back and look at our PL performances and what the data tells us, there's a strong argument for patience

You don't stay high on this collection of stats without climbing the table at some point. Let's see if we can maintain those numbers though as 3 games is not a significant sample size for me.

3 games is a very small sample size unfortunately, two being Fulham and Burnley. Let's revisit after 10 games.

 

[Glorio]

3 games is a very small sample size unfortunately, two being Fulham and Burnley. Let's revisit after 10 games.

Said the exact same thing in the post!

Well, not exact but in the same spirit.

 

[Gordon'sHill]

Liverpool v Arsenal - Both teams in each half
City v Spurs this season - City didnt manage a shot

I get it you hate the manager, its fine.

There is a difference between wanting him to prove himself, which alot of fans are looking at this season, and just hating everything he does, because you dont like him.

I don't hate the manager at all, so please don't make silly assumptions and it shows your obsession with him. I hope he succeeds, and certainly we have made some good signings that will help the team. At the end of last season I felt he should have gone, and I think would have if it hadn't been Berrada behind him with Ashworth being sacked. I thought the same with ETH the season before, it gave me no great pleasure to be right on that front.

I simply don't buy into this whole cultish worship of the next new shiny manager, nor pretending that some very rigid interpretation of 352 is a sign of tactical genius rather than a major flax in his inability to adapt or change as appropriate. Every other successful manager in the last 15-20 years has been flexible and adapted at times or evolved their overall approach. The whole 'short term pain' thing and process has been repeated, from LVG to ETH, it became like a prayer ritual for the Ten Hag fan club, and its back again now. Everything I have read about Amorim's system, and its quite a lot, tells me he wont ultimately succeed. Its why Liverpool passed on him and its not clear any other top clubs were that serious either. But I equally admit I could be wrong, a big part of me hopes I am, but I am not going to ignore facts and analysis to get there. Above all else I just want to be entertained, which was the core essence of a United team, and we have lost that.

If you cannot have a grown up discussion without telling me what I think and somehow hate or dislike the manager, don't bother engaging. It says a lot about you that its your reaction to any criticism of the messiah. Though for the record I was unimpressed with some of his comments about the team last season, and for example refusing to watch penalties is not a sign of leadership.

 

[Gordon'sHill]

Liverpool v Arsenal - Both teams in each half
City v Spurs this season - City didnt manage a shot

I get it you hate the manager, its fine.

There is a difference between wanting him to prove himself, which alot of fans are looking at this season, and just hating everything he does, because you dont like him.

Given you want to have a silly debate. BBC shows City had 10 shots vs Spurs, of which 4 on target and actually a higher XG of 1.5 vs Spurs on 1. So clearly when you say 'City didn't manage a shot', you were completely wrong.

I see we are now top of the league for XG, but this game shows how sometimes XG is irrelevant

 

[MUEricTheKing]

Again this is horribly simplistic. We talk about his 'philosophy' like he is Socrates or some kind of modern saint. He is a football coach, he doesn't have a philosophy. What he has is a single formation and rigid tactical approach that he follows all the time, whether its Liverpool or Grimsby. It was well know flaws that were evident in Portugal and more so in the PL. Sporting had well know flaws if the wing back were shut down and his approach is not to control the ball, so often in big games they had limited possession and struggled to build attacks. Without the Gyokeres factor I am not sure he would be here. No other top coach has ever shown such rigidity, none of them. List any you want and they all evolved and were flexible. Indeed, flexibility is perhaps the single biggest mantra of modern coaching.

Yes the club was a mess, but managers come into other clubs and make improvements. Look at Everton or Palace last season. But those managers dont have 'philosophies'. Pep has also adjusted his tactics and certainly formations over the years and will continue to do, it looks like they may be more direct this season.

Amorim is not the 'whole project'. He is not even the project. He is the coach. INEOS and their admittedly imperfect management team and clearing out the overpaid deadwood and looking to improve our transfers. If we need a new coach, so be it, hopefully he will inherit a better squad and so the process continues. Why is everyone so obsessed with the cult of the manager? No other top clubs are

I think this is where the whole debate gets a bit skewed. You’re absolutely right that Amorim isn’t Socrates and that no manager should be treated like a saint. But the thing people mean when they talk about his “philosophy” isn’t that he’s some kind of genius on a pedestal – it’s that for the first time in over a decade, United have chosen a coach whose ideas are meant to be the starting point for building a consistent style of play from top to bottom.

Look at Barcelona in their peak years. The philosophy wasn’t just Guardiola – it was Cruyff, La Masia, the way the academy taught kids to play, the recruitment strategy, and the manager was simply the conductor of that machine. Pep was brilliant, but he was also working inside a system that already had a clear identity. At United we don’t have that right now. We’re only just starting to put the pieces in place with INEOS, a new structure, and the appointment of a coach with a defined model. That’s why Amorim is important – not because he himself is “the project”, but because he represents the first attempt in years to actually align the football on the pitch with a coherent, long-term idea.

Yes, he’s rigid. Yes, there are flaws. But building a proper football identity was always going to be ugly before it gets better. United have been so badly run for so long that the short-term fixes are exhausted. We can’t keep kicking the can down the road, swapping coaches every 18 months, and hoping the next guy magically balances a broken squad. At some point you have to take the pain of transition and see it through. If you believe Amorim’s model is a credible way forward, then he has to be given time to implement it properly – with the right players and with the club backing him.

And flexibility cuts both ways. Guardiola and Klopp adjusted their tactics after years of stability, after embedding their principles so deeply that the squad could evolve naturally. They didn’t rip up their systems after 30 games. If we want United to get anywhere near that level again, the club has to back one way of playing and allow it to bed in. Otherwise we’re just hitting reset again, and again, and again.

So no, Amorim isn’t the whole project. He’s part of the project. But if the leadership genuinely see him as the right fit for where they want United to go, then the best thing we can do now is give him the runway to prove it, rather than pulling the plug the first time the numbers look ugly. That cycle is exactly why we’ve been drifting for a decade.

 

[Laurencio]

Every manager with a priority to remove player power, get rid of some toxic elements, change the recruitment process and long term lower the wage bill will initially suffer results wise.

Just looking at what kind of formation Amorin use and only judge his results on the pitch doesn’t paint the whole picture of what the the new owners are doing at the moment. Their long term project is to transform the whole structure around the club.

Getting rid of underperforming high earners, the negativity that was hovering over the squad, some too old, some not fit enough and at the same time change the recruitment process where we sign mostly sign young inexperienced talents will short term create instability and growing pains. It has nothing to do with formation or tactics. Most of our new players are talented enough to play all different systems, regardless of who’s the manager.

Amorim has his own philosophy with a 3421 formation and the underlying stats from this seasons first three PL games shows that we’re creating more goal scoring opportunities together with more possession. We’re still suffering from defensive instability and especially the goalkeepers weak actions on set pieces. Hopefully our new keeper will change that.

I think that we’re only three, maybe four players away from taking the next step and challenging the better teams.
Be patient.

Let Amorin continue his rebuild, have a little trust in the process and we will see where we’re next summer.

Oh so completely different from:

Van Gaal: Trust in the process, it takes time to adapt to a new style and change our recruitment to fit that sort of football.

Mourniho: Trust his experience, it takes time to adapt to a new style, not enough physicality, change the rotten boardroom politics, get bad eggs our of the club and end player power.

Ole: Trust the process. The toxicity is gone, it will take time to rebuild and we still don't have a DOF. Too much player power.

Ragnick: Trust the process, he is going to see now what has to be done and implement a new recruitment system when the new manager comes in. He is honest and seeing exactly what needs to be done to get rid of player power. He will move into a DOF position and this will all be worth it. He is changing the wage structure.

Erik: Trust the process, it takes time to adapt to the style and formation. He needs players who fit the style, too little technical ability in the squad. He is working against years of player power that has never been dealt with. In that process he is going to cost us a few hundred million, short term pain for long term gain. Can't do better with the noise around INEOS. It will get better next season.

We have seen the same argument repeated ad naseum for a decade now. Amorim is statistically the worst performing manager in 200 years - our last manager was sacked by his new club after 2 matches. The guy before hadn't managed a professional club regularly for 10 years when we hired him.

At some point the tired excuses have to stop.

 

[romufc]

Given you want to have a silly debate. BBC shows City had 10 shots vs Spurs, of which 4 on target and actually a higher XG of 1.5 vs Spurs on 1. So clearly when you say 'City didn't manage a shot', you were completely wrong.

I see we are now top of the league for XG, but this game shows how sometimes XG is irrelevant

Silly debate? you're the one who was talking about 30 minutes without a shot... then now you have changed the goal post to the whole game!
City had a shot in the 48th minute and the next one in the 70th minute.

I was not talking about xG.. not sure where you got that from

 

[romufc]

I don't hate the manager at all, so please don't make silly assumptions and it shows your obsession with him. I hope he succeeds, and certainly we have made some good signings that will help the team. At the end of last season I felt he should have gone, and I think would have if it hadn't been Berrada behind him with Ashworth being sacked. I thought the same with ETH the season before, it gave me no great pleasure to be right on that front.

I simply don't buy into this whole cultish worship of the next new shiny manager, nor pretending that some very rigid interpretation of 352 is a sign of tactical genius rather than a major flax in his inability to adapt or change as appropriate. Every other successful manager in the last 15-20 years has been flexible and adapted at times or evolved their overall approach. The whole 'short term pain' thing and process has been repeated, from LVG to ETH, it became like a prayer ritual for the Ten Hag fan club, and its back again now. Everything I have read about Amorim's system, and its quite a lot, tells me he wont ultimately succeed. Its why Liverpool passed on him and its not clear any other top clubs were that serious either. But I equally admit I could be wrong, a big part of me hopes I am, but I am not going to ignore facts and analysis to get there. Above all else I just want to be entertained, which was the core essence of a United team, and we have lost that.

If you cannot have a grown up discussion without telling me what I think and somehow hate or dislike the manager, don't bother engaging. It says a lot about you that its your reaction to any criticism of the messiah. Though for the record I was unimpressed with some of his comments about the team last season, and for example refusing to watch penalties is not a sign of leadership.

if you took your own advice... maybe then we can have a discussion... telling me not to tell you what you think... in the same sentence you are telling me that I think he is the messiah... when have I said that?

Oh so if a manager watches penalties, its a sign of leadership?

 

[NLunited]

Don't think those things are mutually exclusive. Incredibly boring, but that doesn't meant he couldn't have been successful.

The squad building was failing hard at that point. We brought in the wrong type of players: old, not athletic, or wrong mentality.

We lacked players up front who could make the difference, and a serious creator in midfield. That’s why we were stale in the second season. He tried playing Depay as a 10 ffs.

 

[MUEricTheKing]

I think it’s time we step back and see the bigger picture here.

Yes, results have been inconsistent, and yes, it hasn’t always been pretty to watch. But if you look beyond the table for a second, there are real signs of progress under Amorim. We actually lead the league in expected goals (xG). That means we are creating chances at a level higher than anyone else – the underlying football is moving in the right direction. Performances are starting to show patterns, structure, and attacking intent. Those are not the numbers of a doomed project; they are the numbers of a team laying the foundations for something strong.

Of course, Amorim has his flaws, and the squad is far from complete. But this is what rebuilding looks like. For too long we’ve chased short-term fixes, changed managers every 18 months, and hit the reset button the moment things got difficult. That cycle is why we’ve drifted so far from the top. At some point you have to accept the pain of transition if you want to come out the other side stronger. Amorim is trying to implement a defined identity, a system that can scale, and a way of playing that, with the right backing, can bring us back to competing with the very best.

This is where we, the fans, come in. People talk about the United shirt being heavy. That’s because of the pressure, the expectation, and the constant spotlight. But it doesn’t have to be heavy in a negative way. If we stand behind this team and this manager with full belief and unconditional support, that weight can be transformed into strength. Players and coaches open up their full potential when they feel trust, when they feel love, when they know the crowd is with them rather than waiting to turn.

Imagine Old Trafford roaring for 90 minutes not only in the big games, but every week, no matter what. Imagine if, instead of being a place players fear, it becomes the place where they know the fans will lift them through the hard moments. That’s what makes clubs like ours different – the bond between supporters and team.

So let’s do our part. Let’s be the supporters in the truest sense of the word. Let’s show Amorim and these players that we believe in the process, even when the results don’t immediately show it. Let’s make the shirt lighter, not heavier. There is light in the darkness, the data proves it, and the only way we’ll get back to where we belong is if we go there together.

United is about fighting as one. So let’s stand as one – behind Amorim, behind this squad, behind the rebuild. That’s the only way Manchester United will truly feel like Manchester United again.

 

[Sky1981]

I think it’s time we step back and see the bigger picture here.

Yes, results have been inconsistent, and yes, it hasn’t always been pretty to watch. But if you look beyond the table for a second, there are real signs of progress under Amorim. We actually lead the league in expected goals (xG). That means we are creating chances at a level higher than anyone else – the underlying football is moving in the right direction. Performances are starting to show patterns, structure, and attacking intent. Those are not the numbers of a doomed project; they are the numbers of a team laying the foundations for something strong.

Of course, Amorim has his flaws, and the squad is far from complete. But this is what rebuilding looks like. For too long we’ve chased short-term fixes, changed managers every 18 months, and hit the reset button the moment things got difficult. That cycle is why we’ve drifted so far from the top. At some point you have to accept the pain of transition if you want to come out the other side stronger. Amorim is trying to implement a defined identity, a system that can scale, and a way of playing that, with the right backing, can bring us back to competing with the very best.

This is where we, the fans, come in. People talk about the United shirt being heavy. That’s because of the pressure, the expectation, and the constant spotlight. But it doesn’t have to be heavy in a negative way. If we stand behind this team and this manager with full belief and unconditional support, that weight can be transformed into strength. Players and coaches open up their full potential when they feel trust, when they feel love, when they know the crowd is with them rather than waiting to turn.

Imagine Old Trafford roaring for 90 minutes not only in the big games, but every week, no matter what. Imagine if, instead of being a place players fear, it becomes the place where they know the fans will lift them through the hard moments. That’s what makes clubs like ours different – the bond between supporters and team.

So let’s do our part. Let’s be the supporters in the truest sense of the word. Let’s show Amorim and these players that we believe in the process, even when the results don’t immediately show it. Let’s make the shirt lighter, not heavier. There is light in the darkness, the data proves it, and the only way we’ll get back to where we belong is if we go there together.

United is about fighting as one. So let’s stand as one – behind Amorim, behind this squad, behind the rebuild. That’s the only way Manchester United will truly feel like Manchester United again.

Real sign of progress!

I want whatever you are smoking

 

[MUEricTheKing]

Real sign of progress!

I want whatever you are smoking

You don’t need to be smoking anything to see signs of progress, you just need to look beyond the raw points column. We’re top of the league in xG, which means we are creating more and better chances than anyone else right now. Performances are not yet consistent across 90 minutes, but the underlying numbers don’t lie – this isn’t “relegation fodder” football, it’s a team in transition that’s learning a new system while still managing to carve opponents open.

Progress isn’t always measured in wins straight away. It’s in the structure looking tighter, the chances becoming more repeatable, and the fact that younger players are bedding into the team with a clear role. That’s exactly what Amorim promised from day one: it would be ugly at times, but the direction of travel would be clear.

So yeah, the results column is frustrating. But if you actually look at the football itself, there are foundations being laid that simply weren’t there before. That’s the “real sign of progress.”

 

[astracrazy]

So the 4-0 against Everton last year wasn’t tearing a team apart? We dominated city 2nd half last season and came back and won. We battered Arsenal but got unlucky. Open your eyes man… just because we’re not doing these things consistently it doesn’t mean we haven’t

So the two examples you can give for your claim are his third and seventh game in charge from back in December last year? Where a few days after the City game he talked about the lack of training to implement his system? I'm not sure this is a good example that we can "win with this system and we’ve shown we can tear teams apart with it".

If anything, it proves the opposite.

 

[Red in STL]

Feel very confident that Van Gaal would have made us perennial Top 4 and title challengers maybe even winners had we kept him on a few more seasons and more importantly, invested in the types of players he said were the missing piece. Like...Sadio Mane

Genuinely one of the best tacticians of the time but Woody was too stupid to appreciate it and most fans too.

You would never have seen it happen because you'd have been fast asleep!

 

[ManhattanRed]

I think we can all agree, besides the second half vs Fulham, we’ve been a lot more watchable this year. The team has looked very good mostly. I’ll take that as a positive first step after the crap we put out for the last year and a half with ETH chaos ball.

 

[Aleryan]

Things has finally stabilized after the win against Burnley. Finally the team can take a breather and play to their strengths.

 

[Apokalips]

Well we wouldn’t have gone for Sean Dyche so that’s ridiculous. The system is never the issue and I’m sick of saying it… the profile of player is. We’ve shown we can win with this system and we’ve shown we can tear teams apart with it. Teams around Europe are still winning league titles with a back 3, I don’t wanna hear but there easier leagues because some of the teams are still doing it in Europe and 2 of them got to a final not long ago… the only reason a back 3 as been won once in the last whatever years in the prem is because we rarely have managers at top teams that play that way…

We have won an absurdly low percentage of games and no back to back league games, we have shown we CAN'T win regularly with this system/under this coach so far. Who have we torn apart? We even struggled in games against the relegated sides, what are you even watching to say these things?

 

[Oscar Bonavena]

The problem is we may well have invested in the wrong philosophy. If we appointed Sean Dyche and he averaged 1 point per game across his first 30 games, would you be suggesting the club give him more time to implement his identity?

I'm just not sure why we settled on doing this rebuild with a manager who plays a system that is so clearly not suited to the squad he inherited, and there is no obvious benefits to rebuilding the squad in his image. Only one team has won the PL with a back 3 in the last 32 years. All the best club sides you can think of in the last 20 years who were considered the best side around, who won league/CL doubles etc. are back 4 sides - Bayern under Heynckes/Flick, Barca under Pep/Enrique, PSG Enrique, United Ferguson, Zidane/Ancelotti Madrid, Pep's City, Klopp's Liverpool. Ultimately the responsibility for this mess is on whoever appointed him, it's not really Amorim's fault that he's trying to do what he does.

At some point you have to ask, is a manager who's averaging relegation level points totals across his first 30 league games, really going to win you a league title further down the line? Or is having us playing like relegation fodder a sign that he just doesn't have what it takes?

Fans can understand and accept imperfection in the early days, but they don't understand picking up relegation fodder level points totals and then pretending that this is going to end in a fairytale league title win in the future. It just seems unlikely.

The problem is that we brought a manager whose system goes completely against the squad's strengths. Hence he can't really be judged unless we buy him a new squad. Then if we buy him a new squad and turns out that this hipster 3-4-2-1 system doesn't work then we'll have troubles reverting back to a system that actually works in the EPL. Even now we don't have a player capable to play in the LW position unless we move Cunha in the LW or bring Rashy back.

Ashworth was right. We should have brought in an EPL proven manager whose tactics play to our strengths. Rebuild is a marathon not a race and for United to have money to spend we need to be in Europe rather then lingering at 15th place.

Yes, I'm coming around to this opinion, unfortunately. Maybe the most obvious explanation is the correct one. That Ruben is a likeable but naive young coach, appointed from a much weaker league, who's probably out of his depth and has been figured out by the rest of the Premier league.

I like some of the things he's done like clearing out the bad attitudes from the squad, that will stand us in good stead. But the whole "rebuild" narrative rings hollow for me as we had a chance in the summer to move away from "Brunoball" and reinvest in a proper, competitive midfield, and we never did that. Instead, Ruben looks like he wants to build his midfield around Bruno, playing alongside Casemiro. We're going to get ran through again this season. How is that a "rebuild"?!

There is no doubt in my mind that Ruben could have forced the issue and persuaded Bruno to take the Saudi offer, which would have given him a chance at a proper rebuild. That might very well be the decision that gets him the sack, if it does happen.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

Every manager with a priority to remove player power, get rid of some toxic elements, change the recruitment process and long term lower the wage bill will initially suffer results wise.

None of this is - or should be - the head coach's job.

 

[7even]

None of this is - or should be - the head coach's job.

I agree in theory but that’s not all the time how it practically works when a head coach start in the middle of a season.

I think I can see the logic in the thought process behind the project that SJR and the board is trying to implement. To successfully turn a short sighted waste culture around there will be periods of short term pain until almost all underperforming high earners are gone. To get all players to draw in the same direction and accepts Amorim’s philosophy we as supporters and the club as a whole need to be on the same page.

The board and the owners have clearly shown that they back him despite all the catastrophic results from last season.

They have in the summer bought several player profiles that hopefully suit his system and they have publicly shown strong support despite the Grimsby fiasco. That’s how you build a new culture long term.

Amorim needs to tweak his system to adapt to the demands of PL, and I honestly think he can do that but he will not tell that to the whole world straight out, it will probably happen gradually.

The central center back needs to step up more often and support our midfield, the wing backs need to play higher up in the pitch, Sesko need to act as a focal point and push the defense more deep and our two tens need to be more involved in the build up. The main structure is there but Amorin need to calibrate some of the positions until we control the games more effectively.

As soon we get a new dm with all the attributes needed in that position things will fast get better. Similar to when we bought Michael Carrick. That’s my honest belief.

 

[devilish]

Yes, I'm coming around to this opinion, unfortunately. Maybe the most obvious explanation is the correct one. That Ruben is a likeable but naive young coach, appointed from a much weaker league, who's probably out of his depth and has been figured out by the rest of the Premier league.

I like some of the things he's done like clearing out the bad attitudes from the squad, that will stand us in good stead. But the whole "rebuild" narrative rings hollow for me as we had a chance in the summer to move away from "Brunoball" and reinvest in a proper, competitive midfield, and we never did that. Instead, Ruben looks like he wants to build his midfield around Bruno, playing alongside Casemiro. We're going to get ran through again this season. How is that a "rebuild"?!

There is no doubt in my mind that Ruben could have forced the issue and persuaded Bruno to take the Saudi offer, which would have given him a chance at a proper rebuild. That might very well be the decision that gets him the sack, if it does happen.

If it was for me we should have accepted Amorim's resignation letter. However I wouldn't blame Amorim for being hired. We knew beforehand that he had 1 system and he was set in his way. He's been using that system since it bailed him out at Casa Pia and its the reason why it costed him a better move at Liverpool. So to demand to change it immediately after joining us was too much to ask. Regarding Bruno, a stronger board would have put its foot down and they would have sold Bruno irrespective of what the manager said. Sure, the manager needs to be listened to but 100m for a near 31 year old who will end up playing out of position is crazy. Martin Edwards would have sold Bruno irrespective what SAF would have said and quite frankly the latter would have agreed to it.

I am not a 'stick to the manager at all cost' supporter. Sure the manager can't win the EPL from year 1 or even 3 for all that matter but he must show vision and progression at every step of the way. However the board need to be made accountable for their actions as well. They are in Senior management so they must MANAGE. The way Leverkusen dealt with ETH was amazing. He came in, they immediately identified that he was a problem and voila he was out before he could say Hey. No sticking to the manager or 600m to spend first

 

[Chevap]

Feel very confident that Van Gaal would have made us perennial Top 4 and title challengers maybe even winners had we kept him on a few more seasons and more importantly, invested in the types of players he said were the missing piece. Like...Sadio Mane

Genuinely one of the best tacticians of the time but Woody was too stupid to appreciate it and most fans too.

If the "tough man" Herrera and co didn't fold in that West Ham game we would be at better place now.
He was good tactician, but fans were bored of possession football but are glad to accept 7-0 against Pool or relegation form.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

If it was for me we should have accepted Amorim's resignation letter. However I wouldn't blame Amorim for being hired. We knew beforehand that he had 1 system and he was set in his way. He's been using that system since it bailed him out at Casa Pia and its the reason why it costed him a better move at Liverpool. So to demand to change it immediately after joining us was too much to ask. Regarding Bruno, a stronger board would have put its foot down and they would have sold Bruno irrespective of what the manager said. Sure, the manager needs to be listened to but 100m for a near 31 year old who will end up playing out of position is crazy. Martin Edwards would have sold Bruno irrespective what SAF would have said and quite frankly the latter would have agreed to it.

I am not a 'stick to the manager at all cost' supporter. Sure the manager can't win the EPL from year 1 or even 3 for all that matter but he must show vision and progression at every step of the way. However the board need to be made accountable for their actions as well. They are in Senior management so they must MANAGE. The way Leverkusen dealt with ETH was amazing. He came in, they immediately identified that he was a problem and voila he was out before he could say Hey. No sticking to the manager or 600m to spend first

One point about Bayer Leverkusen, since you mentioned them, that gets overlooked is that they decided to cut ties immediately with ETH exactly because they want to protect their investment. Everyone looks at the sales, but they have actually invested 170 of the 220 million Euros they received this summer to remain as high as they can on the Bundesliga table. They're not waiting for ETH to turn all the players into deadwood. It's the opposite of what we have been doing, and it also underlines the idea that if you switch to a model that takes away responsibilities from the manager and delegates them to more people, then the manager's position becomes de facto more vulnerable. It should be one of this MO's benefits, more flexibility in a critical position in the club when things don't look good. Here, we want the new model, but we also see the manager as a savant who will lead us to enlightenment. Talking about having your cake and eat it too.

 

[Rusholme Ruffian]

I don't hate the manager at all, so please don't make silly assumptions and it shows your obsession with him. I hope he succeeds, and certainly we have made some good signings that will help the team. At the end of last season I felt he should have gone, and I think would have if it hadn't been Berrada behind him with Ashworth being sacked. I thought the same with ETH the season before, it gave me no great pleasure to be right on that front.

I simply don't buy into this whole cultish worship of the next new shiny manager, nor pretending that some very rigid interpretation of 352 is a sign of tactical genius rather than a major flax in his inability to adapt or change as appropriate. Every other successful manager in the last 15-20 years has been flexible and adapted at times or evolved their overall approach. The whole 'short term pain' thing and process has been repeated, from LVG to ETH, it became like a prayer ritual for the Ten Hag fan club, and its back again now. Everything I have read about Amorim's system, and its quite a lot, tells me he wont ultimately succeed. Its why Liverpool passed on him and its not clear any other top clubs were that serious either. But I equally admit I could be wrong, a big part of me hopes I am, but I am not going to ignore facts and analysis to get there. Above all else I just want to be entertained, which was the core essence of a United team, and we have lost that.

If you cannot have a grown up discussion without telling me what I think and somehow hate or dislike the manager, don't bother engaging. It says a lot about you that its your reaction to any criticism of the messiah. Though for the record I was unimpressed with some of his comments about the team last season, and for example refusing to watch penalties is not a sign of leadership.

Nah, you absolutely hate him

 

[The Boy]

We have won an absurdly low percentage of games and no back to back league games, we have shown we CAN'T win regularly with this system/under this coach so far. Who have we torn apart? We even struggled in games against the relegated sides, what are you even watching to say these things?

I don't get (well I do I guess as you're all worried) why people can not separate last season from this season. I would judge him as he begins to get the sort of players he wants and with a full preseason.

I get that United were horrendous last season and a more flexible manager may have switched formation to for the players he was lumbered with, personally I think Amorim made a mistake not doing that and grinding out a few more results. But this season (Grimsby aside and all prem teams have had their nightmares at lower league opposition) so far has looked very different.

Also some posters seem to think that Amorim is absolutely fixated on one system but the way you set up changes all the time during a game from a back 3 to back 5 even to a back 4 sometimes. Your midfield often changes shape as well, sometimes 2, sometimes 3 and sometimes a diamond, it's all about overloading areas of the pitch depending on the phase of the game. It means within their zones player can positionally very flexible. Learning this and where your team mates are likely to be is tough, which is why I suspect last season was such a nightmare, but they're getting it now and you are looking better.

 

[Rusholme Ruffian]

I don't get (well I do I guess as you're all worried) why people can not separate last season from this season. I would judge him as he begins to get the sort of players he wants and with a full preseason.

I get that United were horrendous last season and a more flexible manager may have switched formation to for the players he was lumbered with, personally I think Amorim made a mistake not doing that and grinding out a few more results. But this season (Grimsby aside and all prem teams have had their nightmares at lower league opposition) so far has looked very different.

Also some posters seem to think that Amorim is absolutely fixated on one system but the way you set up changes all the time during a game from a back 3 to back 5 even to a back 4 sometimes. Your midfield often changes shape as well, sometimes 2, sometimes 3 and sometimes a diamond, it's all about overloading areas of the pitch depending on the phase of the game. It means within their zones player can positionally very flexible. Learning this and where your team mates are likely to be is tough, which is why I suspect last season was such a nightmare, but they're getting it now and you are looking better.

You are absolutely correct. The irony is that if he'd been 'pragmatic' last season and compromised his ideals - and maybe we'd managed to get back to the heady heights of the 8th place that we reached the season before, then he'd have only started implementing his system during the summer. Therefore we would be right at the beginning of the learning phase now. I can absolutely guarantee that the same fans that are griping now would be absolutely slaughtering him if we'd started this season poorly.

I always used to think it was jealousy and bollocks when oppo fans used to call United fans clueless, but sadly a large proportion of our fans have been absolutely spoiled rotten. I swear some of the people posting on this thread have not even watched the games so far this season.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

I don't get (well I do I guess as you're all worried) why people can not separate last season from this season. I would judge him as he begins to get the sort of players he wants and with a full preseason.

I get that United were horrendous last season and a more flexible manager may have switched formation to for the players he was lumbered with, personally I think Amorim made a mistake not doing that and grinding out a few more results. But this season (Grimsby aside and all prem teams have had their nightmares at lower league opposition) so far has looked very different.

Also some posters seem to think that Amorim is absolutely fixated on one system but the way you set up changes all the time during a game from a back 3 to back 5 even to a back 4 sometimes. Your midfield often changes shape as well, sometimes 2, sometimes 3 and sometimes a diamond, it's all about overloading areas of the pitch depending on the phase of the game. It means within their zones player can positionally very flexible. Learning this and where your team mates are likely to be is tough, which is why I suspect last season was such a nightmare, but they're getting it now and you are looking better.

Personally, if i choose to separate last season from the new one, i'd want a top-four(ish) finish. He got his pre-season, and he has already changed 5/11 starting players (would have already been six, if we could get more money for the outgoing players, but he may get a midfielder in the winter). This is a luxury none of his predecessors was afforded and, except for Moyes, all of them delivered CL football in their first season. The shock of last season works in his favour since INEOS seem to have tied their sail to this particular mast because he's not going anywhere and the bar for relative "improvement" has never been lower. Because if he needs a whole new starting line up and nearly half a billion of investment to get us close to a top-four finish, he's obviously a mistake. An expensive one by INEOS, no matter the narrative anyone on here or in the media wants to spin.

He had a chance last season, since he decided to join, to tinker with his system and try different things that might have proved useful to him in the PL environment. It would have also given him a better chance to learn more about his squad, its strengths and its limitations. He didn't, it was his choice, and now he has to prove that the pain and the suffering he likes to talk about so much was actually worth it. I certainly hope that he succeeds. But 30 good minutes against Fulham and exerting ourselves both physically and emotionally to take care of Burnley at home won't convince those who think that something's gone awry with his appointment.

I won't go much into tactics because i agree with the gist of what you write in the last paragraph. Plus, the discussion about the starting formation is tiring because, for the most part, it stays on a superficial level. Having said that, Amorim most certainly makes a choice: He trades one midfielder for a centre-half. I can see why he does it within the parameters he wants to set for the team. But it still remains a tactical choice he refuses to change and has actual consequences on the pitch, in the way we press, in our shape off the ball and in what we do with it both in the build-up and the higher progression phase. Thus far, the limitations his choice impose on the side outweigh the "expected" benefits. So, of course, he's going to be judged harshly until he manages to turn the ship around.

 

[Raoul]

This here is why I'm willing to be patient.
This is different to blind hope - the performances and data indicate promising times ahead.

The story with Klopp was always that even though Liverpool's results were all over the place when he joined, you could see what he was trying to do and the data backed him.

It's similar here and now (ignoring last season which was a car crash). I've not agreed with everything he's done, but if you take a step back and look at our PL performances and what the data tells us, there's a strong argument for patience

You don't stay high on this collection of stats without climbing the table at some point. Let's see if we can maintain those numbers though as 3 games is not a significant sample size for me.

100%

When the numbers and the eye test converge, its only a matter of time until we see significant improvement. Remember, that the below is without Sesko and Cunha having started contributing goals yet. Once they do, we are going to be battering a few opponents.

 

[gaffs]

Yeah, I wouldn't expect the other poster to care or keep reading anything you wrote after that first line.

Nor do people like to be told to "Have a day off mate". Or the little pat on the head from the poster, in the form of "you seem like a thoroughly decent chap", before going on to call me a "man baby".

Him telling me he is having a bad week as some weird way of justifying, apologizing, insulting and continuing to rant on, has nothing to do with the football convo.