I don’t get how you could watch the first half v Burnley and think it’s about individual moments? We carved them open time and time again.
It felt the opposite to me, like the system was working well.
Ruben Amorim | 2025-26
- Thread starter Cheimoon
- Start date
It felt the opposite to me, like the system was working well.
Exactly this and it was down to the individuals not being able to score the chances they got mostly due to the system.
Yeah the moaners don't get to have their cake and eat it.
When things go badly, people blame the system, regardless of individual errors or the underlying metrics etc...
You can't then when things go well say it's luck or individual brilliance.
Yeah exactly.
A fair caveat to this would be it was only Burnley and Burnley managed to score twice against us.
All fair points and the jury is very much still out on this right now, the City game is fecking huge, if we can play well and win the suddenly things start looking rosier.
This is just moaning for sake of it...
When was the last time a PL or CL was won without WORLD CLASS players in the team? So regardless of formation you need top players.
10's a re luxury players in a 4-3-3? not in a 3-4-3... can you explain how you think Mbuemo or Cunha are luxury players? Most top teams dont use one? OKay, lets check that? Do Bayern fans think Musialia shouldn't play? There is a reason Liverpool paid 117m for Wirtz. Arsenal with Odegard, bought Eze.. but apparently teams dont want them
You know we played 4-3-3 before this manager a year ago and I can recall us having similar results if not worse?
AM is just a position that you can fill with loads of different types of players. Luxury players are highly talented lazy feckers who don't put in a shift. They do indeed end up playing as AMs if they have got enough talent, but not evry AM is a luxury player. That's just not how ist works.
We are off the charts.
Exactly this. This has been repeated ad nauseam since Amorim came in but the position is really not that different to an attacking fullback. Could Denis Irwin have been a decent wingback? Pat Evra? Gary Neville? Ashley Cole? Andy Robertson? Graeme Le Suax? The whole thing is a myth.
which direction though?
The only correct answer is that the sample size is too small. As things stand, these three are responsible for the 50% (22/42) of the 42 chances we've created thus far (Bruno 11, Mbeumo 8, Cunha 3). Whether you want to focus on the lack of pluralism in chance creation or the fact that the players the system depends on for creating chances are getting good numbers, so early in the season, it's your prerogative.
Not really. Chance creation often requires an individual making the right decision and pass when near the opposition box either central or wide. The difference between “moments FC” which we were under say Ole and ETH and in these first few matches, and to be fair whenever we played well under Amorim last year, is the goals, how often chances are created inside the oppositions box.
When we were Moments FC, we mostly ranked very low, for touches and chances inside the oppositions box penalty box. This year it’s very obvious that we are getting into the opposition penalty box much easier, and creating chances from there. If you look at City, Liverpool, Arsenal etc that’s pretty much what they do.
Its partly down to Cunha and Mbeumo in that if you were to add last year's #1 scoring left sided 10 and last year's #2 scoring right sided 10 to your side - it probably wouldn't come as a surprise that a 15th place side from last year would immediately begin creating a lot more chances. Then if you add Bruno's influence and chance creation into the mix, the numbers would rise even higher, which is why not coincidentally, we are among the leaders so far this season.
Bear in mind that all of this is before Sesko has even begun contributing. So if you take all of into consideration, we are in a very good position to score goals, win games, and move up the table this year.
Some kind of weird collective amnesia from people who seemed to have missed an entire generation of wingers who have turned into inside forwards and the use of attacking fullbacks instead providing the width.
Same folk who think Amorim’s 10s are the same as a single central 10 rather than actually just being inside forwards - like pretty much every other team uses.
Some people on here aren't fans of him but decent breakdown on the difference between Glasner and Amorim
"Moments FC" football is how most goals at this level are actually scored. We can all pick out a few examples of slide rule passes for tap ins, by and large it's the individual of brilliance of top forwards that beats top defenders. We and every other top club (ok, we're no longer a top club) puts tactics into action to score goals but tactics are more about controlling the tempo of a football match than creating scoring chances.
Even if you invoke one of our greatest forwards, Ruud, his goal scoring wasn't as much about being on the end of slide rule passes as it was beating the defender to the space in a chaotic situation. The same with Rooney. The same with Ronaldo, whose power and pace overran defenders at OT and at the Bernabeu. Messi was on the end of a great number of perfect passes from his midfielders, but by and large his goals were pure invention out of the slimmest of opportunities.
We don't have a CF who compares favorably to Ruud, Rooney, Ronaldo and Messi and thus is can be argued even more reason to improve our ability to create chances and I'm all for that. But man cannot live on chance creation alone...we must demand of our CF, Sesko or whoever else in the future, to be able to beat defenders into space and score in improbable conditions.
It's different in that there's a lot more expectation for them to carry the attacking width & progression, while the #10's are more inside and occasionally drift wide. They just have far more to do than a typical fullback. Plenty of top class full backs just wouldn't be able to be as good wing backs. Yes Hakimi and Mendes are world class, but they also have 2 world class wingers in front of them. They're sharing the width and attacking responsibility down the flanks, while we want Cunha and Mbeumo drifting inside and being closer to the CF and between the width of the box. So Dorgu now needs to be someone who can take on defenders (he can't), rather than just be someone who relies on give and go's for progression.
Yeah I think you’ll find Kvaratskhelia and Doue also drift inside plenty, allowing Hakimi and Mendes to create the width. Much like most other teams. I mean traditional out and out wingers are a rarity in the modern game.
Amorim’s use of left footed players on the right also allows Amad to drift inside with Mbeumo able to create the width if needed. Plenty of opportunity to mix it up in attack. Cunha has barely played in his correct position but he’s the kind of player that will also be given plenty of creative license in attack.
I think it makes a pretty big difference starting centrally and drifting out on occasion, vs being normally a winger and drifting in on occasion. It's just a lot more individual responsibility on the wing back for how they attack.
I think our wing backs/full backs would be a lot better as full backs generally. They can support, but they can't be the main going forward. Amad yes is a winger but he is not a full back, so he will always be kind of out of position or kind of awkward back there. Dorgu I think has 0 ball carrying ability and is purely a pass and move player. Fine as a full back, a problem as a wing back.
The next two games will be sliding doors moments for Amorim. I think, if they go well, he can point to a definite sign of a club going in the right direction. The fans will be well and truly behind him.
If we lose both, I think we're in Moyes post Liverpool and city defeats and Ole post 5-0 against Liverpool territory.
If we lose both, I think we're in Moyes post Liverpool and city defeats and Ole post 5-0 against Liverpool territory.
Absolutely spot on. If we can reproduce the form against Arsenal, and manage to score this time, then we’ve got some hope things are moving in the right direction. However, if we get bullied, then the major questions will still remain.
There's a lot of variance in the ways this can go. We can get 0, 1, 2, 3, 4 or 6 points from these two games. Which of those are acceptable and which aren't?
Performance level also matters but if we play well and come out with 0 or 1 point from two games it's still gonna be hostile as we're desperate for wins.
Ok. for me an AM has to be the creative spark. Luxury player as you defeine is true, but for me AM has to be maybe further field . How is an AM going to defend , recieve ball and go on the end of attacks, when you got 1 ST? for this to work, we need 2 WORLD CLASS midfielders and 2 world class WB.
How is this formation suitable for the squad of players we have?
All these positive figures after 3 games mean little to me unless he starts to climb from stone dead last, in league win percentage in the history of our football club
You do realize that to do the latter the team must start showing the former, right ? So surely it should mean something to you, if only that the team might be heading in your desired direction.
“We and every other top club (ok, we're no longer a top club) puts tactics into action to score goals but tactics are more about controlling the tempo of a football match than creating scoring chances.”
This has been United in pretty much most of our premier league matches this season. The difference with “ moments FC” is there was no tactical control and now you can see players like Cunha & Mbuemo repeating the the type of shots they had throughout the season, you can see Sesko getting more crosses. All because now, we appear, to have the variety and patterns of play.
My eye test and short memory is confirmation bias on the stats tbh. Didn't get to watch Grimsby but comparing early Fulham Arse and Burnley we have been far more threatening and cohesive for longer than last season. I just didn't realize the stats themselves were so telling.
It's too early for that. If the Grimsby debacle was not a sackable offence, losing to a pair of CL teams is hardly going to be earth shattering.
Amorim has gotten quite unlucky with the fixtures tbf. Compare with Slot last year who got lucky with a gentle fixture schedule first up and was able to build momentum.
I think if we get 4 or even 3 points, that's a positive sign. He doesn't necessarily have to win both.
If we lose badly in both, it's 1 win from 6 competitive matches this season. It's gonna be difficult to recover from that.
It should be too early but this is how football is now.
But if they go really bady, like 5-0 against Liverpool under Ole badly, I'm not sure how he recovers.
The start against Fulham was also very good, haven’t seen us start a game that well very often in the last years. But Fulham recovered and our second half was dire.
I admire those looking for the little scraps of positives from Amorim. The underlying stat argument was the same as Ten Hag at the start of last season (good xg and chance creation hopefully turns into wins) etc. My view is he should already be gone, however, poor results in the next couple of matches, regardless of "performances", should see him gone. You just can't be a United manager and have the types of poor records that he has. You can't on one hand have the bar high for players and below low for the manager. He needs to win and win convincingly at this rate. Yes there are some difficult matches, but the reason there is pressure is because he hasn't dealt with the easier matches. There should be no excuses regarding players getting used to the formation, there should be no excuse for being outcoached and there should be no excuse for having such a poor start should we have poor results.
We’re starting games well and fading, which to be fair is natural and we’re not going to have things our own way all of the time.
I feel like its also partly Amorim's fault for not adapting his tactics once the opponents counter us by flooding the midfield.
He could ask a CB to step up further or have the wingbacks play narrower. But nope, we persist on keeping the same shape. Reminds me of LVG at times.
The about dealing with the easier matches is spot on.
If he beats Fulham and Grimsby, thinks look ok for him now. Six points from three league games and the potential of a cup run. He failed to do that. The pressure is on him now to get at least one win from the next two matches as opposed to them being something of a 'free hit'.
If you went back to last season, most of the worst performances came in really winnable matches against Spurs (three times ffs), West Ham, Wolves (twice) etc. It's his failure to string results together against the dross of the league that's going to cost him. Heavy defeats against city and Chelsea are just going to be the final nails in the coffin.
But it isn't early. If United loses both matches than this season is a direct continuation of the poor last season.
Amorim got a completely new attack and the amount of chances looks good, he needs to get them scoring now.
This seems like you want this to happen...
Other coaches know how Amorim plays, why not flood the midfield from the start if they know. Why can we start so strong if they know. The fading is more than tactics, it’s mental for a big part, and that is the most difficult part to change i’m afraid. If we don’t score we feck ourselves up.
Let's at least see the results against City and Chelsea before we hold those results against him.