You missed the point. The point was, if you bring in better players then the team is better, ipso facto.
Ruben Amorim | 2025-26
- Thread starter Cheimoon
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You dont think a Ten Hag 433 with today's players would be better than an Amorim 343?
I pin it on Berrada. Despite having a DOF in place, he pushed forward and got his sexy European coach. CEOs should not be picking football managers.
Though, did they know / ask if Amorim would be so wedded to his wing back system?
I think Amorim naively thought he could get more out of the players he inherited and would have at least found a couple of players in his first season that could adapt well to his 343. But as it is, I can only think of Luke Shaw, as a player that has benefited from Amorim's system.
I’d much rather watch us attempt an Ajax-style game than a Sporting-style one. In addition to Ten Hag’s unbelievable injury crisis, two of his new toys actively undermined him (Ronaldo, Sancho), and one of them (Onana) almost single-handedly knocked us out of Europe and cost us a raft of league points. Ten Hag’s donut formation was a temporary fix while he assembled all the best players, same as Amorim’s system with Dalot and Dorgu as the twin fulcrums is temporary.
The worrying things for me are Amorim’s defensive approach sucks to watch, and he has shown zero ability to change game dynamics (or changing anything to exploit the game before him). Ten Hag adapted and won 2 trophies.
Every stick used to beat Ten Hag can also be used to beat Amorim. It’s the disconnect that is so strange. If Ten Hag want good enough and wasn’t the right fit, then how can anyone say Amorim is the right fit.
He definitely isn’t too slow. You may be right about the engine but we need to try him there. If he gets tired, you take him off and put Dorgu on.
I agree.
Still, as I said, if Ineos are as "all in" for Amorim as we are supposed to believe, then they also have to provide him with the players necessary for his tactics. The wing backs are fundamental for it to work and playing subpar or unsuitable makeshift players in those positions will always hold the team back. With 343 being the vision sold to fans, we should buy wing backs of adequate quality or employ a manager, that doesn't need any. Sack or back. Half measures and sitting on the fence won't work.
edit; Semenyo, as the player mentioned in the video, would also work in a post-Amorim team. Get him in, play him at left wing back and see where we finish. If Amorim gets the sack at the end of the season, a new manager could just play him on the left wing instead. Cunha more central, Mbeumo/Amad on the right. I my mind, there's no excuse to not strengthen the team, when Champions League football seems so important for continued growth.
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Compare him to any other winger you like.Alright, so because he doesn't just chill in the opposition half as much as Marcus Rashford and Alejandro Garnacho, he's not an attacking player.
And my stats are worthless.
I think you don’t understand the point being made.
I didn't miss any point I'm asking you a question about what you wrote.
"However, all these changes were made because they believe Amorim would be the key difference in making us a contender — has he? No"
I'm just wondering what contender means here If he's already failed. I'd assume you don't mean title contender because that would be ridiculous but then we're certainly in contention for Europe given we're 1pt off 5th.
Ten Hag spent even more and had more time so how you think he'd do better with this squad is beyond me. He was a massive failure who took us backwards, it might be slow (largely because of Ten Hag) and from a low base (see Ten Hag) but we're at least making progress under Amorim.
Maybe Maguire also benefits because he is getting more minutes now. But no one is playing any better and many have looked like lost sheep out there.
Something to temper this Semenyo enthusiasm is that a lot of players have zero interest in playing as a wingback. Think of how a typical wide player is reluctant to track back and often forgets their defensive duties. This is 100x worse when you’re a wingback. Maybe the allure of the badge could persuade him, but wingback in the PL means constant lung busting, never a moment’s rest, and you’re providing instead of finishing moves. It’s the same as if we played Mbeumo as wingback.
The conversion to wingback has to happen at youth level, I’d say it’s next to impossible to take a player already in the top flight and give them a whole new set of operating instructions and expect them to be as good as they were. The reliance on these two wingbacks being elite is like saying we only need to sign two strikers of Ruud’s caliber to make our team sing. That’s how elite they’d have to be, and I can’t think of any who fit that profile.
You missed the point again. If ETH had better players, his team would be better, is the argument.
We are not making improvements under RA. In my view, we look worse, the football is pedestrian, and we’ve been riding our luck. Any improvement is improving from Amorim’s own dismal performance thus far, which is a strange circular argument.
Glasner did a Tictacs interview on Sky this Saturday, with a proper board and everything.
He clearly demonstrated how starting formation is basically irrelevant. But also obvious, from the way he moved the players around, was how playing this way relies on players with a rounded football ability, he was saying things like ‘now he becomes a 6’, ‘now we need two 10’s’ and so on.
If we don’t have players with the versatility go from LCB or LWB to CM and so on then it’s going to be a struggle to play with the requisite flexibility for a modern setup
Agree.
He’s not a wing back. Why buy a player for a decent wedge and ask him to play somewhere different.
Online fan nonsense, BERKball
He took over after ETH did sign lots of 'better' players and didn't improve so no it doesn't work like that. One of his worst players in Casemiro is now one of our best. I'm assuming you keep skirting my question as you realise it was a nonsensical point you made.
Fact is he took over a team in 14th place that was in a really bad place, we're now a point off CL places so that's objective progress whatever your personal view is.
You’ve convinced me.
He's not good enough to be a first choice player and currently, and for the foreseeable, we might by someone who is, but we won't buy two for the same position.
You would think it would be VERY obvious, and yet by my count around 2/3 posts on the topic of Ruben Amorim are about how rigid he is in this system.
He'll just get exposed. If he get's in properly attacking positions - like he should be, he's going to get hit on the counter. If he's worried about getting hit on the counter, he'll sit back. Teams will just target him.
Sides who play like this have supreme athletes playing wing-back because they cover the full length of the pitch. He didn't have the legs to do this a few years ago, never mind now.
People are obviously referring to his unwillingness to change the shape. It's a given that a manager doesn't play the exact same system, with no tweaks, week after week when you player a different team.
And regardless of whatever tweaks he makes, it still isn't working based on the evidence, and that's what fans are taking issue with.
I think we're doing alright for now in general and I'm hopeful of challenging for 5th at the very least, which would be a pretty good season.
But longer term I think it's going to be difficult for him to do better than that. We probably need two midfielders and a left wing back just to have a properly functioning starting eleven in a 3-4-3, and then after that there would still be absolutely no depth, so we'd be one injury away from being back to square one.
That's my main concern I think. We've got a thin squad as it is without having to try and replace half of the squad that is currently here at the same time.
But longer term I think it's going to be difficult for him to do better than that. We probably need two midfielders and a left wing back just to have a properly functioning starting eleven in a 3-4-3, and then after that there would still be absolutely no depth, so we'd be one injury away from being back to square one.
That's my main concern I think. We've got a thin squad as it is without having to try and replace half of the squad that is currently here at the same time.
We were getting humped 3/4-0 all too often under Ten Hag. That was far worse in my opinion. Despite the results, we have been competitive in more matches under Amorim.
We also rode our luck massively under Ten Hag. In the season we finished 8th under him, didn’t the metrics show our expected position to be around 14th or something?
I remain entirely unconvinced that Amorim is the right man, but let’s not pretend Ten Hag was anything but a disaster that left us in a mess. If Amorim left now and a new manager came in, they’d be coming into a better situation that Amorim came into.
There isn't one. I can direct you to reports that he was pushing hard for an athletic midfielder behind the scenes. He hasn't said it publicly.
All of this, by the way, is easily accessed on google or other search engines.
But again, he DOES change the shape, the shape changes in and out of possession and has changed depending on opponents. The base 3 at the back with wingbacks and two tens doesn't change. But that doesn't mean the shape never changes.
We have the 6th or 7th best squad in the league and are... what? 6th? I would say it's working just fine.
This is my point. The system is benefiting two of our weakest players. Two players that most fans would be happy to be rid of.
And all the while players like Mainoo and Maz rot on the bench because they don't fit into the system.
I dont think anyone is saying it was great under Ten Hag, but in final full year at United, that squad was far worse than it is today. Partly due to some of his crap buys.
He was having to rely on Shaw, Maguire and Evans at CB for some games.
Please stop with ETH, he was fecking diabolical. We let him spend a fortune and our squad ended up being the worst United squad in the history of the PL.
This notion that he'd be doing better with this squad is a fantasy. Not only would he not have wanted these players in the first place, but he had us playing dog shit football which saw us losing over and over again. Often getting hammered pretty heavily.
Reminder, when ETH was finally sacked last year we'd managed 9 games, 4 loses, 2 draws and 3 wins. A win percentage of 33% and a loss percentage of 44%. We had a far easier start to the season then too.
We're currently sitting on a 46% win rate (not good enough) and a loss rate of 30%. Again, we've had a much harder start to the season. It's not been great, but it is better than last year when that dope was finally kicked to the curb.
This notion that he'd be doing better with this squad is a fantasy. Not only would he not have wanted these players in the first place, but he had us playing dog shit football which saw us losing over and over again. Often getting hammered pretty heavily.
Reminder, when ETH was finally sacked last year we'd managed 9 games, 4 loses, 2 draws and 3 wins. A win percentage of 33% and a loss percentage of 44%. We had a far easier start to the season then too.
We're currently sitting on a 46% win rate (not good enough) and a loss rate of 30%. Again, we've had a much harder start to the season. It's not been great, but it is better than last year when that dope was finally kicked to the curb.
I really don't see a lot of tweaks to RA's tactics from match to match, unless what we mean by tweaks are well-worked set pieces.
Bizarre isn't it. His catastrophic recruitment is the main reason we're in this mess.
But he did better with a worse squad. Yes he was shit and absolutely needed sacking, earlier than we sacked him, but you need to get very selective to paint Amorim as more successful than ETH
No one here misses ETH. No one wants him back, very few wish he stayed. Take it as read that he was diabolical, but that doesn't mean Amorim is the panacea. Amorim overall win percentage is 36%. ETH overall win percentage was 56%. (Moyes was 41% for comparison purposes.) Both are diabolical, but Amorim is worse.
Yes no shit Amorims is worse. Our squad when he came here was fecking terrible. You just seem to always ignore that and just look at the base stats. Which is ignorant and illogical as shit. This is one of the reasons why he didn't want to come to us mid season. He is being punished for the failures of the previous Manager and regime.
Reminder, for the second half of the season we had Hojlund, Garnacho, Amad (he injured himself in late Jan) and Zirkzee. Three intact forwards for the entire second half of the season. Two of which are no longer here and the other is possibly being sold this window coming. He was working with the barest of bones.
That isn't what happened, but whatever, I still love you.
I think trying to brush that form up under "he had a bad squad" is what's really ignorant and illogical as shit.
He had near relegation form all season.
And yet there a posters here saying, "on another day Palace score more" or words to that effect. So if that logic can be used against a win, then why can't the same be used against a loss? E.g, on another day, United would have scored more than Everton..
Please understand that I'm not defending anyone regarding the Everton result, nor am I attacking anyone using losses to prove their point. What I'm saying is that both sides of the debate, use any means possible, including plenty of what if's to argue for and against, depending on their own opinion's.
This forum seems to get very caught up in over arguing every little detail. What we know for certain is that the squad finished 15th last season, regardless of anyone's opinion. Our squad, which is also down to people's opinion, but the general consensus is that we have a generous, top 4-6 squad. So surely, with the team sitting in 6th, as of the time of me posting this, so that puts us smack, bang, right where we should be. It would take a rogue opinion to say otherwise.
My opinion is that the end of the season is a fair to judge our form, players, manager or what ever else people want to argue.
Edit. I pressed 'post' before I had finished typing.. I also would like to point out that this wasn't aimed directly at you but more in general to this particular thread as the place is getting very toxic. I have also been guilty of this myself and had comments rightfully deleted, because it didn't promote a good debate.
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I was responding to someone claiming we look worse under Amorim than we did under Ten Hag. I was disagreeing with that. All too often under Ten Hag we looked liable to get hammered, which happened a fair amount. And that wasn’t just down to the players, it was due to his system leaving us massively open all the time. That’s not really happening anymore.
Perhaps. You think they would have still gone for him, knowing what we all know now?
Ahh. You're smarter than everyone else?
A hammering doesn't feel great, but one hammering and three wins is better than two wins and two losses.
You'd think some of the points you're making is common sense, yet so often, it's 'yeah but' to somehow defend/deflect criticism from Amorim. All of this for what? One of our worst managers ever with an appalling 30 something % win rate. It's utterly bizarre.
'We're better than last season' but also 'don't mention last season because it's irrelevant'.
17 points from our last 9 league games ain't bad