Aww I know you are hurt your Ruben was sacked. You will be fine, must be hard watching us playing better football and winning games than under Amorim. The length you go to give Amorim credit but throw everyone else under the bus is impressive.
Ruben Amorim. Fired for being crap. Full stop. Just another addition for Amol as he loves it
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I like him and really hope he’ll smash it at his next club. But he’s never the right fit for us. Came in with us at our lowest level and made us worse. More heads should have rolled though.
Not for one failed appointment. Appears a head did roll for approving ETH’s stay of execution already.
I’ll say the recruitment appears better, much more club focused rather than building in a manager’s own image. Was refreshing to hear the manager was overruled on signings over the Summer.
The next appointment will be a big deal though, get that wrong again and maybe talk about more heads rolling.
I don't know? I don't really remember you. But I remember at least 20 other regulars who have. It does seem you have trouble understanding the concept of a forum. Just because we're here commenting doesn't mean we're "hurt" or that we're not celebrating the wins as somebody put it.
He came 2nd and 3rd with McFred in midfield! What are you on about?
Maybe if he'd been given 1 world class midfielder we might have reached that 'next level'.
But no, let's sack and start again until we find a manager that never does anything but win.
Whatever. Each one of the post-SAF manager has his "fans"on here. I would argue that the rest of the football didn't see anything in him to offer him another job at this level, but you'll answer that he would only take the United job, wouldn't you?
It was his choice to build a team with McFred at the heart of it. It's not something to be used as an excuse for him. As far as long-term planning goes, it's damning. He spent nearly half a billion to have "his"squad and his McFred midfield. He inherited a team that also had Matic, Herrera and Pogba. It was a conscious choice to make Bruno the sole creator, with two players moping up behind him and three forwards up front. But, yeah, let's offer him a 10-year deal.
But here we are discussing the same thing, if he had been given player x, y or z. You can say the same for every manager. It's the intention that matters, it serves as a mission statement. We also had people on here telling us that Amorim's hoof-ball tactics were a result of him realizing that we don't have a good midfield. Then use the funds available to you to strengthen the most important area on the pitch. It was his choice not to do it. Why? Because he didn't care, and he had no problem bypassing it to move the ball forward. Same with Solskajer and ETH. It's not bad luck that got us here, but bad decisions. And managers made those bad decisions.
I think it is ironic that you seemingly are fine with yourself having strong negative feelings towards people you never met while being angry on them for creating positive/less negative feelings towards people they never met. ^^
Surely thats the case. The question though is, when is the point the whole thing turns an issue in itself. That the answer to being self-righteous is being self-righteous is kind of natural - but at some point, it turns into being petty. Not sure whether that point is already reached, probably not. I wouldn't have an issue with that, personally, since everybody should spend their time doing whatever they want. I personally am only a tad worried, that this will only breed the next overreaction and we, mostly the club, I've lost most hope for the fans, won't be able to learn the necessary lessons for the future.
It was not his choice to build a squad with McFred. He was solving issues elsewhere and, had he been given the time, he would have solved our biggest problem since Fergie left which is the middle of the park. Not keeping Ole meant we started a different vision with Ten Hag and yet another vision with Amorim.
You see I'm not a fan of any manager but I do understand the idea that constantly changing managers and visions has crippled this club.
I can see an alternative reality where Fergie was sacked in 1988 or 1990 and became known solely for his Aberdeen stint and having failed in England. How Man United fans can't understand the importance of constancy is sacrilegious to me.
At the end of the day, I don't actually value managers very highly. I do think they can mess up a good team and I do think that constantly changing them does not lead to a well run club but at the end of the day the best group of players 95% of the tlme win the league. Hence Liverpool under that Slot clown.
Basically I think we would have won the league at least once had we kept any of Moyes, LVG or Ole. (Jose was never United material and shouldn't have been let through the door)The fact that we constantly worry about what other fans or the malignant media think is again baffling to me.
But hey, I'll get behind Carrick, I'll get behind the new guy in the summer and hopefully the penny will drop with others.
I think he will still be a top manager. He will probably do an Unai Emery and leave a big club go to a smaller one and get them playing well.
I still believe that if he were given a chance to solidify the midfield, all of the online tactic discussions would fade. Though i also realize that the media would always be on his back about it, because they just don't like anything that doesn't look or feel traditional.
Thank you for your time at the club and for bringing discipline back.
I still believe that if he were given a chance to solidify the midfield, all of the online tactic discussions would fade. Though i also realize that the media would always be on his back about it, because they just don't like anything that doesn't look or feel traditional.
Thank you for your time at the club and for bringing discipline back.
It‘s mostly bad decisions, some bad luck.
Amorim decided not to play Mainoo in midfield. He was relying on Bruno. The problem is of course it is not Bruno‘s best position.
Ole was a counter attacking coach and did not prioritize possession in midfield.
Ten Hag likes press-resistant midfielders, so him bypassing midfield was solving issues rather than by intent.
Mainoo was developed and incorporated into the first team to play the ‚Frenkie de Jong‘ role, the player ETH desperately chased. ETH also got Eriksen on a free.
His plan with Mount didn‘t work out, mostly because of injuries. Some bad luck there for sure.
Ugarte on paper was a player good at ball-retention, but he hasn‘t worked out at all. He was a club signing, a wrong one at that. Not bad luck, ETH did not want him.
Casemiro was a great signing, but cannot play more than one game a week.
Anyway it‘s useless looking back on it. Thank God Mainoo is still here and hopefully we make some good midfield signings in the summer.
The crazy thing is people seem so happy that Mainoo is staying but at the same time think we should sign 2 midfield starters in the summer thus only considering Mainoo a backup.
No, build around Mainoo. Casemiro is leaving, so we need to sign one starter and one back up to replace Ugarte.
His next step will determine that. If he fails in the next job, he is pretty much done at top leagues.
He should focus on building a strong CV, but my guess is he will go to a struggling club thinking he can change the Tide and fail again.
Our midfield lacks numbers and quality. Just look at our current options: we dont even have enough numbers to make rotation.
Emery at Arsenal took 1.85 ppg man, he was a good manager even there, just not quite good enough for their long term goals.
Amorim was shit, is shit and I’d be absolutely amazed if he ever tastes success again.
True but surely if Mainoo was the 2nd coming then we would need 1 partner and 1 backup. Everyone seems to want 2 starters.
Amorim this season had 31 pts from 20 matches i believe, which is 1.6 ppg. This is with a dysfunctional rebuild. People want to point to the dreadful first season, which is fair, but to suggest this season is anything like last season isn't fair to him.
That was before Amorim was sacked. He was going to allow Mainoo to leave.
To be fair the club would have, and did block it
Amorim was sacked after an amazing run of games where he picked up very little points. No evidence whatsoever to suggest he'd navigate the following 3 that Carrick had with any conviction and that changes ppg quite a lot.
"He was solving issues elsewhere"... so, it was his choice after all. He was too busy forking out a king's ransom to acquire the services of Maguire, AWB, Varane and Sancho. Every manager worth his salt starts with the midfield. As i argued earlier, it's a mission statement because it tells you what kind of team you want to build. That's where you start (if you're not happy with what you've got, that is, which Amorim and Solskajer probably were).
Constancy without vision is meaningless. What many United fans fail to understand is that United signing Ferguson back then was similar to Liverpool landing Klopp in 2016. Giving time to any run-of-the-mill manager will only result in perpetuating mediocrity. We have spent about 3 billion gross since 2013 only to look like a rudderless ship lost in the ocean. Of course, the managers we've had should be judged harshly.
I disagree about the importance of managers. The successful clubs in all team sports live and die by their managers' principles. Some fits are better than others, alright. A pragmatist, like Ancelotti, will probably fare better at Real Madrid than an idealist, who, in turn, may do better at a club that pursues tactical variance within certain parameters.
Slot won a title with a team he inherited. It is not to be downplayed, we've experienced first-hand (Amorim) how managers can make a team look less than the sum of its parts upon their arrival. Now, the task is different, he must build a team that reflects his philosophy more than his predecessor's. The vision i'm talking about. But to get there, he must adapt (again) and show the necessary imagination when dealing with the day-to-day challenges of a high-pressure environment. If he fails spectacularly (miss out on CL football, throw players under the bus, lower expectations etc.), he will be shown the door even if the higher-ups at Anfield believe in his overarching vision. The job of the manager requires being good at different aspects of team-building. Steadying the ship, raising the floor, push to hit a higher ceiling, you have to get all of them right, and, sadly, being good at one of them doesn't mean you'll succeed at the others. And this is why philosophy (in lack of a better word) matters.
The managers you mention would only win a PL by accident. Like Di Matteo, Ranieri or even Rodgers who came close. It can happen, but they don't have it in them to create the "constancy" you crave so much. It doesn't mean that i don't want Carrick to succeed. I've argued elsewhere that he's my favourite post-2000 United player, there's nothing that would give me more joy. But i will judge him as i have judged others.
Amorim made a conscious decision. Bruno was moved into the midfield for his long-range passing and vision because Amorim wants sterile possession instead of patient build-up with an eye for the "shortcut" pass in the final third (and the subsequent third-man run). Mainoo may or may not become a good midfielder, but his exclusion from the first-team (in favour of Ugarte of all people) speaks volumes about how Amorim perceived midfield organization. As i said earlier, priorities. Furthermore, Bruno in the more advanced role works best as a "laissez-faire" roaming playmaker and Amorim's "system" doesn't allow for too many positional rotations.
I don't care about prioritizing possession for possession's sake. In most games, we'll have most of the ball by default, anyway. The key to any successful football side has always been about finding ways to make the pitch big when you have the ball (without falling apart in defensive transitions). That's where they all have failed. Stripped down to the bare basics, Ferguson was a "counter-attacking" coach. We were excellent at "attacking the space" under his guidance, we were quite good at it under Solskajer, too. But here's the catch: Attacking the space you're afforded by your opponents and attacking the space you create on your own are two different things. That's when possession (and a good midfield), or a manager's philosophy, comes into play.
ETH made his own bed. I know your stance on the matter, so i'll leave it at that. As far as i'm concerned, he gets the same criticism as his predecessors.
today's the 1 month anniversary, no? I feel alive again. guy had me on the verge of crippling alcoholism
also, Merson
also, Merson
Every manager worth his salt starts with the midfield.
I've never heard that before. I would say every manager should start with the weakest position and go from there.
Constancy without vision is meaningless.
Let's get the vision detector out for Carrick then. Deary me. Who says Ole and Ruben didn't have a vision?
What many United fans fail to understand is that United signing Ferguson back then was similar to Liverpool landing Klopp in 2016.
I assure you, that you would have been calling for Fergie's head when he finished 13th and 11th. He wasn't some special wizard. He just had time to implement his ideas.
How out of date is that opinion though? Probably true when Mainoo was shut out the team by Amorim so wanted to leave. I'd suspect opinions are changing now.
The midfield is the heart of the team, it shows the manager's intentions. In a recent interview, Klopp was asked about the Liverpool side he inherited, and the United side Ferguson left behind. He said that he'd always make the same choice, choosing between similar squads, because, although severely lacking in quality in most areas of the pitch, he inherited an engine (runners, hard workers, committed to the cause players) in the midfield and that was a good place to start for him and implement his philosophy. Where do you think he would have started, had he got the United gig?
There's no need for irony. I can be sarcastic, too. I'm replying in good faith, if you wish we can end it here. You know exactly what i mean, vision and a philosophy that can do the job at this level of football. It's not a shame, if someone doesn't have "it". Most managers don't. You may want to offer Moyes, Solskajer, ETH, Mourinho or Amorim long-term contracts to satisfy your sense of constancy. There's a reason why no other big club won't touch them with a barge pole.
I hold Ferguson in such high regard and i feel so thankful to him, that i consider finding the next one nearly impossible and trying to replicate his tenure an exercise in futility. If all you've learned from the 25 years of his tenure is that all the manager needs to succeed is time, you do you. I'll reiterate what i wrote in my OP: One of the things that plagues our club and fan-base is this notion that the position will make the man and not vice versa.
At the current market, two starters is impossible. Midfielders are extremely expensive nowadays.
And I actually rate Mainoo: in a 3 man midfield he will deliver.
today's the 1 month anniversary, no? I feel alive again. guy had me on the verge of crippling alcoholism
also, Merson
That's actually pretty spot on
We'll leave it there so. I suppose it boils down to your faith in managers and my belief in groups of players.
today's the 1 month anniversary, no? I feel alive again. guy had me on the verge of crippling alcoholism
also, Merson
Every Saturday sitting at the airport with his bags, mate youve got to go back
Can you clarify who you are specifically talking about in the last two sentences here? Fergie or Klopp?
today's the 1 month anniversary, no? I feel alive again. guy had me on the verge of crippling alcoholism
also, Merson
No lies in anything Merson said.
Mentally, Amorim chucked it a long time before Leeds (A). Probably at Grimsby to be honest.
There's no way I'd be comfortable heading into a season with Europe with just 3 midfielders including him. Even some of the best midfielders get rotated out every once in a while.
today's the 1 month anniversary, no? I feel alive again. guy had me on the verge of crippling alcoholism
also, Merson
No lies told
Both, either. Ferguson could have been sacked especially by the standards of the cafe. Same goes for Klopp.
They both struggled with poor squads and could have been sacked but were given time to rebuild.
Fergie would have been laughed off as a Scottish joke by the cafe.
I don't know, quite a few do seem to go on about long term rebuilds, cultural resets,open heart surgeries, patience, suffering and other associated waffle whenever we hire a new coach.
Absolutely, massive question marks over how the club have operated in the last decade.
We hire the wrong managers at the wrong time, give them too much control over transfers and then give them too much time instead of being proactive and making a change when they are clearly in a downward spiral or in the case of Amorim out of their depth.
Ineos apart from giving him control over transfers, basically repeated all the Glazer/Woodward era mistakes with Amorim.
1 - He wasn't suited to the squad and arguably the league.
2 - His football/formation required a significant rebuild to work (if ever).
3 - They left him in the job far too long.
He was arguably out of his depth from day one, we arguably should have sacked him around February/March last year, he really should have been gone after the Europa League debacle, then definitely around November last year. But the club let it fester and drag on, when clearly we were going nowhere under him. And his behaviour was becoming more and more erratic and unprofessional, so I genuinely have no idea how he lasted so long. It's worrying as Ineos have let this happen twice in a row now with Ten Hag and Amorim. The club need to be more proactive, if a coach isn't working out then it's ok to admit they got a hiring wrong and move them on.
Sack to victory
We should have 3-4 midfielders capable of being a starter. Mainoo is certainly on that level, with Casemiro and possibly Ugarte leaving. We'll need reinforcements/numbers in CM.
Not this again. Fergie knew how to adapt. Amorim didn't.
As opposed to what exactly?
The long term blind faith approach?
''Let's give this new guy 2-4 years to completely implement his philosophy/ideas/vision regardless of results.'' ''Oh well it didn't work out and we're still shit, let's hire someone else and give them 2-4 years as well. Hopefully it'll work out this time.''
10-15 years later....
''Bugger we're still shit, but any decade now we'll find the new Fergie....''
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