Yes, we should continue sacking managers who aren’t good enough. Keeping managers who aren’t good enough is very obviously a terrible idea.
Ruben Amorim. Fired for being crap. Full stop. Just another addition for Amol as he loves it
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Yes, we should continue sacking managers who aren’t good enough. Keeping managers who aren’t good enough is very obviously a terrible idea.
Actually, in his last two months things were decidedly getting worse again:
D, D, L (v 10 men), W, D, W, D, L, W, D, D
11 games, win rate 27%, 1.36 ppg.
The truth is, he had one single good month in 14 months before reverting to type. October was unquestionably the exception to the rule, and you certainly shouldn’t give anyone credit for being worse than EtH’s worst; simply because it’s better than the shit he served up for 70% of last season.
It’s like giving someone credit for improving their dog turd sandwich by sticking ketchup on it.
Remove that abnormality October and feck me does it paint a picture of the heavy lifting it did.
L, D, L (Grimsby), W, L, W, L, OCTOBER D, D, L (v 10 men), W, D, W, D, L, W, D, D
18 games, 5 wins, 6 defeats, 7 draws. 1.22 ppg.
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today's the 1 month anniversary, no? I feel alive again. guy had me on the verge of crippling alcoholism
also, Merson
What he said here while sounding hilarious isn't too far from the truth. Besides the horrible results on the pitch, Amorim's behaviour also plays a huge part in why I think he needs to go. Throwing young players under the bus to defend his own terrible decisions, criticising the players while not taking any responsibility himself etc. His comments about Dorgu looking nervous sounds so hypocritical when he himself is a nervous wreck so can't even watch the team take penalties.
Like many have said in this thread, he has no credit in his bank. I cannot fathom how some fans think he deserves more time.
today's the 1 month anniversary, no? I feel alive again. guy had me on the verge of crippling alcoholism
also, Merson
I missed that, brilliant.
“I’d sack me”
Who cares. He's the worst manager we ever had, and he engineered his own sacking so he could leave with a huge, and wildly underserved, paycheque. I hope he never manages again tbh.
I can't believe you guys spent like two whole pages of responses arguing with that chap
I can't believe how much historical PPG knowledge there is. Some resourceful posters alright.
But that’s only if you take the disaster of last season as the baseline, which you shouldn’t. Things were not improving compared to Ten Hag’s 8th place finish even though Amorim had a much better squad and far fewer injuries. Not only that, but aside from a two month patch, performances were deteriorating again and he still wouldn’t have been sacked had he not decided to throw his toys out of the pram and pick a fight with the board. They were as patient with him as it was possible to be yet they were still painted as the bad guys by a good part of the fanbase.
We didn't but then it went to shit anyway.
Moyes was a broken man for years, he was never turning it around at United.
Again as opposed to what?
Stand by our man for 3-5 years, then our next man for 3-5 years , then our next man after that for 3-5 years and so on for decades until we hit the Fergie mk2 jackpot?
How long you you think a coach needs to actually coach a functioning team capable of challenging for a title or let's be honest even top 4 consistently?
Jose, Ole and Ten Hag all had the best part of 3 years each. None of those experiments went anywhere.
Alright a lot of responses out there.
As I've said already my main point isn't really about Amorim. It's about how this club's fanbase get carried away with media pile ons and what opposition fans think.
Objectively Ole had a better first 3 and a half years than Fergie. 6th, 3rd, 2nd and 7th when sacked versus 11th, 2nd, 11th. Below is how Fergie's 3rd full season started.
In September, United suffered a humiliating 5–1 away defeat against fierce rivals Manchester City. Following this and an early season run of six defeats and two draws in eight games, a banner declaring, "Three years of excuses and it's still crap ... ta-ra Fergie." was displayed at Old Trafford, and many journalists and supporters called for Ferguson to be sacked.[86][87] Ferguson later described December 1989 as "the darkest period [he had] ever suffered in the game", as United ended the decade just outside the relegation zone.
Nobody will know how Moyes, LVG, Ole, Ruben or even ETH would have turned out. But have a look at the paragraph above. Can anybody with their hand on their heart say they would have known Fergie was special in December 1989?
Please think about that when you're raging at the next guy.
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today's the 1 month anniversary, no? I feel alive again. guy had me on the verge of crippling alcoholism
also, Merson
Omygimdying
Anyone with an ounce of football knowledge could clearly see that Amorim was utterly out of his depth does not need a lecture from nobodies on here about how to support the club. It's nothing to do with social media or Gary Neville, just some limited knowledge of modern football tactics and management. I've supported this club since I was 6 years old and was on the Stretford end a couple of years after. What about you? Are you just A WUM or even a United fan? We do know how Moyes, LVG, Ole, and ETH would have turned out. Just look at where they are now. With the exception of Moyes and Mou none are in management, Moyes is back where he belongs, a midtable PL manager. Mou has tumbled out of the major leagues and narrowly escaped another sacking last week. Amorim wont get a big gig next and without the strong club infrastructure he had at Sporting I would be pretty confident he would fail.
You should think about why you are so obsessed with a manager and not pin all your little hopes on the next one. Fergie was a one-off, we have had two generational managers in our history and odds are we wont get a third. He was rebuilding the entire club including the youth system at a time when the manager was still all powerful, and that's why the board stuck by him. He also had won a league with a genuine outsider team and a major European trophy to boot. This is so boring. Please form the Amorim fan club and fan site and invite your little gaggle of fellow acolytes.
A lot of anger. I've made my point. It didn't register. Fair enough
Season before Ole:
2. Manchester United 81 points
Ole took over a side that had just finished 2nd months earlier on 81 points and in 3 and a half years he failed to improve on the previous manager’s points total, league position or trophy haul, despite spending hundreds of millions.
In the first 18 months Fergie didn’t just improve on the previous guy when he took them to 2nd on 81 points, it was United’s best league season in 21 years! And his 81 points was their best points total in their entire history.
Stop talking nonsense man. He was an absolute genius and that was evident extremely early on.
today's the 1 month anniversary, no? I feel alive again. guy had me on the verge of crippling alcoholism
also, Merson
Aaah Hilarious
In September, United suffered a humiliating 5–1 away defeat against fierce rivals Manchester City. Following this and an early season run of six defeats and two draws in eight games, a banner declaring, "Three years of excuses and it's still crap ... ta-ra Fergie." was displayed at Old Trafford, and many journalists and supporters called for Ferguson to be sacked.[86][87] Ferguson later described December 1989 as "the darkest period [he had] ever suffered in the game", as United ended the decade just outside the relegation zone.
I bet you would have been ridiculed if you'd proclaimed his genius in December 1989
What are you trying to prove mate?
We all know Fergie completely revamped the entire club and that he suffered a dark period after an absolutely incredible first 18 months that gave the club their best league season in 21 years.
What are you attempting to prove? That a dark period shows he wasn’t a genius?
You do know not a single manager post Fergie has had anything like the incredible turnaround first 18 months that Fergie had?
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I’m pretty sure that if our next manager, and say it’s Carrick, in his first 18 months takes United to our best league campaign in 21 years, that’d buy a little more patience.
First you prove yourself a massive upgrade, that’s how you win patience and time.
Fergie proved he was our biggest upgrade since Busby, within his first 18 months, but let’s look post Fergie.
Moyes - massive downgrade on previous managers and previous league campaigns
LVG - only a slight improvement on Moyes in first 12 months, second 12 months was probably equal to Moyes, but more boring.
Mou - Improved on everything post LVG
Ole - didn’t improve on Mourinho’s league position, points total, ppg nor trophy haul.
EtH - things got worse
Amorim - things got horrendous
First you prove yourself a massive upgrade, that’s how you win patience and time.
Fergie proved he was our biggest upgrade since Busby, within his first 18 months, but let’s look post Fergie.
Moyes - massive downgrade on previous managers and previous league campaigns
LVG - only a slight improvement on Moyes in first 12 months, second 12 months was probably equal to Moyes, but more boring.
Mou - Improved on everything post LVG
Ole - didn’t improve on Mourinho’s league position, points total, ppg nor trophy haul.
EtH - things got worse
Amorim - things got horrendous
But we do know with very high certainty. Managers dramatically turnings things around is extremely rare in football. Your whole argument boils down to "this happened once in history so that means we don't really know if any of them were geniuses". But we do know. We can also see how their careers went after leaving United. By your logic the only way to know is to give them an absurd, unreasonable amount of time until we are 100% sure, instead of being 99% sure they are not the right man.
Football has moved on and we are looking for a head coach anyway. Not someone who will lead the club by himself. Zero reason to keep a head coach who can't deliver performances and results.
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I genuinely don't understand the hill you're choosing to die on? Are you honestly using Fergie's first few seasons as a yard stick for Ruben Amorim's failings? The fact you're even mentioning their names in the same comparative sentence is absolutely barmy. You cannot be a United fan, surely? Or you're just on the wind up for the fun of it?
I'm genuinely confused.
Alex Ferguson took over a team that were 21st. Ole took over a team that were 6th. To this day, he is the last manager to beat Real Madrid in a European final. He did it with Aberdeen. Of course he was special.
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I think you are literally taking the piss now. You are the pub idiot who has a smart answer to everything. Why don't you jog on and go and annoy people IRW.
It’s absolutely stupidity to attempt to compare.
United were 21st, and within just 18 months Fergie had taken them to 81 points, with a 60% win rate for their best league campaign in 21 years!! The best campaign since Matt Busby.
It’s absolute genius.
today's the 1 month anniversary, no? I feel alive again. guy had me on the verge of crippling alcoholism
also, Merson
Magnificent
You've already been warned not to call people idiots by a staff member, and you just keep going
If it wasn't for the extreme hostility in your posts, I'd almost applaud you for your dedication.He's obviously planning to die on that Hill.You've already been warned not to call people idiots by a staff member, and you just keep going
..... I'll see myself out.
Sorry mate, the last sentence wasn't aimed at you specifically! It was aimed at the cultists that are still lingering around in this thread.
Apologies, the last sentence reads as if I'm aiming it you but I'm not!
You're just choosing to completely ignore everything else.
He was a big name in football with what he'd done at Aberdeen. What amorim had done was nowhere near it.
On top of that, he was doing huge work behind the scenes, as has previously been mentioned, with the youth setup. Which the fans didn't know about.
But the club did. That's why they knew to stick with him. They could see he was in it for the long haul and was improving the entire ecosystem of the club.
The other asshat didn't even attend youth team games, as has been mentioned. Nearly caused us to lose one of our best most recent talents to come through because he was such a slave to his useless system.
And on top of that he randomly threw young players, who need building up, publicly under a bus when he was not even asked about them.
feck that guy. He absolutely had to go. If you genuinely believe there was more than 0% chance he'd have succeeded if given time, I don't know what to tell you.
Well said.
I don’t wanna be too harsh as I see you’ve had a lot of negative responses. However the bolded is I believe is complete and unequivocally not true.
If you wanted him to remain because of a deep form belief on giving maximum time to the project, fine, is what it is, clearly nobody will change your mind and ultimately we should accept that and not try and convince you otherwise.
However from my point of view I wanted Amorim gone from post Europa final. I assure you it had absolutely nothing to do with the media and opposition fans. In fact the way the media and opposition treated Amorim was actually a further driving force in wanting him to succeed.
Simply put, in mine and a lot of people’s minds, Amorim was simply doing more damage than good to the club. That’s the way we saw it and you need to accept that. And it’s not a good idea to go around telling people what was behind them wanting him or previous managers out. And essentially making out they can’t think for themselves.
This whole acting as if one has a deeper and more intellectual thought process as to why it was better to keep than sack Amorim is a massive cause of the divide.
He was just terrible, no other way to put it. Results were terriblle, football was terrible, treatment of young players terrible, substritutions terrible, negative attitiude terrible.
All good!
Id argue that he was given a very poor opening hand and brought to the club under shite circumstances. But he didn't help himself.
Either way, he left the club with an improved squad which is rare for our Managers as every single time a Manager has been sacked our squad has regressed. Be that Amorims influence or INEOS I'm not sure (probably a combination) but I have agreed with every squad decision we've made under Amorim.
Ironically, he might actually have done a great medium/long term service to the club making us a professional environment again. Hopefully we see that through and don't let the bad eggs back.
Let’s see. Do we credit the signings to the head coach, who picked a fight with the board because they didn’t sign the players he wanted, or to INEOS who installed a new hierarchy where the manager doesn’t get to pick and choose players at will. Tough one
Get out of here with such a nuanced opinion. Amorim is the devil and we hope he never gets another chance in football again!
It really makes no sense how there are still some who speak as if Amorim was anything but a huge negative at this club, with a shocking record.
I think a lot of people have stopped really watching and feeling the effects of the actual football and just reset every week to supporting the manager without remembering the previous result. The amount of people who are surprised to see how bad Amorim's stats are, despite watching every game and clearly caring enough about United to seek a space to speak about the club. It is a really weird phenomenon how the power of wanting to back a manager regardless clouds recognition of anything outside of things that can be swung positively, including results it seems.
People need to understand that there is no necessity for "suffering" and you don't need to rebuild for 5 years before expecting decent performances. I hope we raise our standards and expect better.
If by nuanced, you mean incorrect - sure. We know that Ineos run transfers, we also know Amorim did not want Lammens and wanted Martinez, he also wanted Watkins not Sesko. It also seemed like he wanted Gyokeres early on although the player did not want us, similar story to Quenda. We are now very very easy to assess - what we see on the pitch is what we judge the head coach on.
I've said the same earlier in this thread. I find it somewhat worrying that people have been so easily swayed by Amorim's somewhat silver tongue. Never in any circumstance should any top level sports team expect to go through turmoil just to return to "the top". The people that are still in support of him and display any form of defence are suffering from stockholm syndrome. I'll quote my post below as I've provided context and an example of another club that is having relative success in comparison to where they were before.
100% agree and to be honest it really pisses me off when people bring up Fergie to defend people who are not fit to lace his boots. It really is indicative of the new fandom of the manager/certain players culture and I would happily see these people follow that manager around rather than hearing them pine for a crap manager's time here.
It's like saying we should have just kept playing Bellion, because Cristiano wasn't scoring truck loads in his first few seasons either. Sir Alex Ferguson is arguably the greatest manager of all time, he has a minimal number of peers and you cannot compare him to people who have achieved nothing in the game compared to him. Pep won everything from the day he started managing, does that mean we should just give Darren Fletcher a go?
Amorim showed absolutely nothing of value, as shown by the fact that none of his fans can point to anything without bending reality. Perhaps he can learn from his experience and improve but his personality type makes it seem that it may take a few more jobs for him to realise he doesn't know it all. He is basically a teenager in managerial terms and acts like it.
Amorim clearly didn't mind Sesko. He met with the guy and gave a two hour proposal on how tactically he was going to use him, face to face. That's not the actions of a Manager spitting his dummy out.
Martinez would have been fine here. We just hit jackpot with Lammens, another player he had no problem showing faith in and throwing in the deep end. We went for the budget option and that's worked out brilliantly for us.
Obviously Amorim didn't pick all our signings but he clearly also gave them all a green light and was happy to use them. Hence why I said INEOS and Amorim deserve credit for turning the clubs around. Unless you think that Amorim didn't have any input on players leaving or entering the club.
Either way, good job all round to everyone involved with the transfers lately.
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