We looked better when we could inject some additional quality in the attack (ie Amad, and in this particular game at least, Mount), and was able to move Bruno back to give us some more creativity in midfield. Needing additional quality in the attack is what we’ve been talking about all season, because it impacts the rest of the team so much. It’s not like he wants to start the game without Amad though, he’s just easing him back in. Which is why the defensive 7 jibes are so nonsense (while also ignoring the role of our wingbacks in attack).
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach | Thread locked during matches
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Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) discuss United's fantastic win away against Athletic Club in the semi-final of the Europa League.
They also pick out the positives of United's 4-3 loss away at Brentford, and Nik reviews a day out at Old Trafford watching Manchester United Women qualify for the Champions League.
What desperation for instant success? Expecting a Man Utd manager to win more than 6 games out of 24 (Sam Allardyce or Gareth Southgate would've done better than that)is not desperation for instant success and neither is expecting him to have us higher than 15th in the table.
How can I know if I disagree or not, if I don't know what their definition of instant success is?
What's your definition of instant success?
It's not. Amorim's is much much better. I mean, his interviews alone are worth 100x Alonso's entire career as a player and manager.
First ever Bundesliga invincible season with a club that's not called Bayern and one game short of a full invincible season across competitions? So overrated.
I don't see the tactics and patterns of play as well as a lot on here so I have a question.
Under ETH people said that he invented the donut midfield formation, nobody there are we got run over by the opposition. When I watch this Amorim team the wingbacks go up into attack with the two wide midfielders, leaving just 2 in midfield and if we lose the ball in attack it takes the opposition just two quick 20 yard passes to be right on top of our backline as the amount of space the two midfielders have to cover is massive. Nobody seems to be complaining and I saw this a few times against Lyon. Wouldn't we do better if at least one of the centre backs stepped up to fill the spaces in midfield? The back 3 also seem to be quite a long way from the 2 defensive midfielders so there seems to be half a pitch with just two midfielders in it, asking to be over run on the counter attack.
What am I missing ?
Under ETH people said that he invented the donut midfield formation, nobody there are we got run over by the opposition. When I watch this Amorim team the wingbacks go up into attack with the two wide midfielders, leaving just 2 in midfield and if we lose the ball in attack it takes the opposition just two quick 20 yard passes to be right on top of our backline as the amount of space the two midfielders have to cover is massive. Nobody seems to be complaining and I saw this a few times against Lyon. Wouldn't we do better if at least one of the centre backs stepped up to fill the spaces in midfield? The back 3 also seem to be quite a long way from the 2 defensive midfielders so there seems to be half a pitch with just two midfielders in it, asking to be over run on the counter attack.
What am I missing ?
With players coming back, and players finding form I am beginning to think that we might not have such a bad squad. Using the above formation I have noted who I think could play each position and I don't think it looks that bad. I have not mentioned players that I don't think will be here next year or won't play much, or I don't think are good enough or that I have forgotten.
Goal Keeper New New
RCB Yorro, Mazraoui, Dalot
CB de Ligt, Maguire
RCB Yorro, Martinez, Shaw
RWB Mount, Amad, Mazraoui
LWB Garnacho, Shaw
RCM Ugarte, Martinez, Mainoo
LCM Bruno, Mount, Mainoo
LAM Cunha, Garnacho
RAM Amad, Bruno, Mount
ST New, Obi, Zerkzee
That really doesn't look too bad does it.?
You have some players in random positions.
It will confuse the opposition. They won't be expecting it. Remember when SAF swapped the wingers over for the beginning of the 1999 European Cup final. Kind of that vibe.
Or maybe I'm confused as to who players where. What in particular have I got wrong ?
Mount at Wing Back and Dalot at centreback are odd choices.
Though I don't disagree with your overarching point. I think the squad is better than a lot of people have been giving it credit for.
Well that depends which players you have available doesn't it.
It's alright saying play Garnacho or Amad at wingback but are they really right for the role. Physically and defensively can they do it.
I'm far from convinced.
I think it's realising a good squad can be badly let down by one malfunctioning part. Especially if it's the attack. Kind of wastes the rest of the good stuff that's going on.
your posts are getting just like a broken record now. We get it, you want Amorim sacked ASAP.
I was pointing out how Amorim playing 3 at the back isn't the same as Alonso doing it. Feel free to put me on ignore if you don't want to be disturbed in your bubble
That remains to be seen, hence the prevailing sentiment that results will have to improve after the summer.
He needs to be much braver with his team selections.
We shouldn’t be starting every game with 7 defensive players.
When the shackles have come off in games we’ve looked very good as an attacking entity.
Hopefully we have a good summer and next season he doesn’t set us up so negatively.
We shouldn’t be starting every game with 7 defensive players.
When the shackles have come off in games we’ve looked very good as an attacking entity.
Hopefully we have a good summer and next season he doesn’t set us up so negatively.
Well written.
Being in the top 6/7 where we have been for the last decade is asking for instant success? The mind boggles. No one has asked for us to be winning the league. People have even downgraded from top 4 and wanted to be in the Europa/Conference spots. That's asking for too much? Wow.
For the love of god
Fair enough if there is no turnaround but those of us who believe it is underway will get a hell of a lot more pleasure out of it that's for sure.
I've a picture in my head of almost the entire Stretford end bouncing along to the excellent Ruben Amorim song with one or two determined to stay seated, arms folded, expressions grim. Each to their own, enjoy.
We need an additional DM. I don't think Ugarte cuts it as a guaranteed starter. In the modern game, you need midfielders that can move the ball quickly. Bruno is the only one in midfield that we have that can pick the ball from the centre backs. Ideally, we would want someone with more defensive abilities to also be able to do this, with Ugarte coming in during tighter games. Mainoo has a lot to prove as well. He needs to develop the workrate needed in a modern midfield to cut it in that position. I would keep him with the hope that he develops. I see Collyer and Casemiro actually staying to back us up in that area. I also see Heaven and Frederikson stepping up. They have the speed and can cope well technically enough to cover the defence with Yoro De Ligt and Martinez starting.
I also don't see Mount nor Garnacho as wing backs. In saying that, I also don't think Dalot is the worst player in the world. I actually think he's a victim of us not having the most technically gifted players around him.
I think Mount, Amad, Cunha and a striker could be a real handle for anytean
Is Amad better at RWB or Right hand side 10 ?
Those have to be the positions that Mount is fighting for ?
Who gets what ? and then where does Bruno go ?
If we get Cunha then LWB is the only place for Garnacho and I think maybe Shaw would be better there because with Cunha we won't need Garnacho running at people as Cunha will be doing that better than Garnacho does.
If Mount doesn't get in the team as RWB, does he get into the team ?
Is Amad better at RWB or Right hand side 10 ?
Those have to be the positions that Mount is fighting for ?
Who gets what ? and then where does Bruno go ?
If we get Cunha then LWB is the only place for Garnacho and I think maybe Shaw would be better there because with Cunha we won't need Garnacho running at people as Cunha will be doing that better than Garnacho does.
But these are then nice problems, no?Mount as 10 certainly but Cunha 9 or 10, Bruno 6 or 10, Amad rwb or 10, all great options depending on who we're facing. Main thing is that we have high quality players to put in each position.
Garnacho would still get plenty of time as a 10 through injuries, rotation and subs. He's played like 55 games this season, that's way too many for a player of his age and experience. We want to have good options in the squad on the bench
One thing Amorim and INEOS need to be wary about is not listening to fans in regard to a clearout.
In modern football, quality depth and workrate are the key ingredients to success. Fergie figured this out after 2010, which is why, despite not always having the best xi, we were able win leagues after Ronaldo and Tevez left. We had enough quality depth in midfield, defence and attack to ensure that even when we had injuries or had to rest players, our overall performance didn't drop. Where City could tear teams apart at the time, we consistently won games and when injuries struck over the course of the season, neither Chelsea or City had the ability to react smoothly to those changes in the way we were able to. We had players with a minimum skill level consistently playing for us. They all had the physicality and technical ability to cope with the speed of the league. Hence, despite Welbeck, Park, Young, Anderson, Cleverly, Chicarito or Evans not being special, they always were able to temporarily fill in gaps without our level dropping off too much.
This is why the recruitment strategy we have had over the last twelve years has not been successful. We always end up in a situation where we lack quality depth, and we sign too many specialists that don't actually have the physicality needed to compete in the league.
The four key causes of this are:
a) We sign new players to replace our starting players. Due to wanting to realize profit to ensure we sign more players, we generate transfer revenue through sales of decent players, and allow our weakest players to remain at the club. This is bad because we always lead with the assumption that our new players will automatically be successful, which is not always the case. This leads us to hope that the new players adapt quickly to the league and offer the exact quality we signed them for. It also leads us to being desperate for their success and overhyping performances because we have no alternative to compete with them. We lose depth through these sales, and force an overdependence on the new signings to be star players. In situations when the new signing gets injured, it then leads us to a position where we are forced to use a player that we know is a liability on the pitch or seek out a loan. This is how we ended up with Ighalo, Weghorst and keeping the likes of Lindelof and Jones for such a long time.
The prime example of this policy failing was with LVG. We sold Kagawa, Nani, Chicarito, Welbeck, Cleverly, Anderson, Evans and Rafael, hoping that Rojo, Blind, Herrera, Falcao, Di Maria, Memphis, Schneiderlin, Martial and Schweinsteiger would work out. Those players were key players to our last season of success under Fergie and had great qualities. If we had kept a few of those players, it could have allowed us to have quality in depth and not forced us to where we were in December 2015, when it became clear that the signings we had lacked the quality we needed to compete. We could have been assured with known quantities being able to compete with some of the new players, but instead, by February 2016, we were having to call up Rashford from the youth academy since we did not have the depth to cope with any injuries. Taking this approach, would have allowed us to have the time to assess that Rojo would not be a good left back, or that Blind was not physical enough to be a DM in the Premier League without those realities costing us so dearly. Memphis' flop may have been covered by decent performances by Nani and Welbeck.
The point is that there is a minimum requirement of quality needed for a player to compete in the premier league. There is a level of physicality and touch every player must have and if they do not have this, it brings down the level of the team.
b) Undeserved Wages - We pay too much money to players who do not perform at the level of their peers around the league. We consistently jump the gun, particularly with young players, and it costs us. We buy the hype that fans bring with their excitement and assume that every young player is going to be Foden or Saka since they pulled offer a difficult dribble against Liverpool. In time, that makes it difficult for us to sell these players when they prove not to match the hope, leaving us in a scenario where we are waiting for their contracts to expire.
3) Planning for youth - On so many occasions, we wait and hold positions for young players so they can develop. For some, we don't sell them early enough, and are always looking for them to be the next home grown star. These players are supposed to be depth and need to knock off performing stars for their starting position to own the position, but instead we plan around them. This season, Mainoo and Garnacho were prime examples of what happens when you do this. Mainoo wasn't outstanding last season, he showed signs of potential, but there were numerous gaps in his game. We planned around him making the step up which was never a guarantee.
The larger point here is that depth is important. In today's league, you need players who can move the ball quickly and have the sharpness and speed to handle the pace of the league. We have players who can do this, but there aren't as many. The key thing is that when these players get injured, we are then forced to use players like Lindelof, Casemiro(speed) and Dorgu who bring a massive drop off in quality. Last year we had to use Evans. This is why other teams are able to maintain their quality for long periods of time, whilst we always seem to have massive fall offs in squad quality. This is not to say these sales shouldn't eventually happen, but they should only happen when we can guarantee that their replacement is better or that we have good enough depth to cope with an injury.
In modern football, quality depth and workrate are the key ingredients to success. Fergie figured this out after 2010, which is why, despite not always having the best xi, we were able win leagues after Ronaldo and Tevez left. We had enough quality depth in midfield, defence and attack to ensure that even when we had injuries or had to rest players, our overall performance didn't drop. Where City could tear teams apart at the time, we consistently won games and when injuries struck over the course of the season, neither Chelsea or City had the ability to react smoothly to those changes in the way we were able to. We had players with a minimum skill level consistently playing for us. They all had the physicality and technical ability to cope with the speed of the league. Hence, despite Welbeck, Park, Young, Anderson, Cleverly, Chicarito or Evans not being special, they always were able to temporarily fill in gaps without our level dropping off too much.
This is why the recruitment strategy we have had over the last twelve years has not been successful. We always end up in a situation where we lack quality depth, and we sign too many specialists that don't actually have the physicality needed to compete in the league.
The four key causes of this are:
a) We sign new players to replace our starting players. Due to wanting to realize profit to ensure we sign more players, we generate transfer revenue through sales of decent players, and allow our weakest players to remain at the club. This is bad because we always lead with the assumption that our new players will automatically be successful, which is not always the case. This leads us to hope that the new players adapt quickly to the league and offer the exact quality we signed them for. It also leads us to being desperate for their success and overhyping performances because we have no alternative to compete with them. We lose depth through these sales, and force an overdependence on the new signings to be star players. In situations when the new signing gets injured, it then leads us to a position where we are forced to use a player that we know is a liability on the pitch or seek out a loan. This is how we ended up with Ighalo, Weghorst and keeping the likes of Lindelof and Jones for such a long time.
The prime example of this policy failing was with LVG. We sold Kagawa, Nani, Chicarito, Welbeck, Cleverly, Anderson, Evans and Rafael, hoping that Rojo, Blind, Herrera, Falcao, Di Maria, Memphis, Schneiderlin, Martial and Schweinsteiger would work out. Those players were key players to our last season of success under Fergie and had great qualities. If we had kept a few of those players, it could have allowed us to have quality in depth and not forced us to where we were in December 2015, when it became clear that the signings we had lacked the quality we needed to compete. We could have been assured with known quantities being able to compete with some of the new players, but instead, by February 2016, we were having to call up Rashford from the youth academy since we did not have the depth to cope with any injuries. Taking this approach, would have allowed us to have the time to assess that Rojo would not be a good left back, or that Blind was not physical enough to be a DM in the Premier League without those realities costing us so dearly. Memphis' flop may have been covered by decent performances by Nani and Welbeck.
The point is that there is a minimum requirement of quality needed for a player to compete in the premier league. There is a level of physicality and touch every player must have and if they do not have this, it brings down the level of the team.
b) Undeserved Wages - We pay too much money to players who do not perform at the level of their peers around the league. We consistently jump the gun, particularly with young players, and it costs us. We buy the hype that fans bring with their excitement and assume that every young player is going to be Foden or Saka since they pulled offer a difficult dribble against Liverpool. In time, that makes it difficult for us to sell these players when they prove not to match the hope, leaving us in a scenario where we are waiting for their contracts to expire.
3) Planning for youth - On so many occasions, we wait and hold positions for young players so they can develop. For some, we don't sell them early enough, and are always looking for them to be the next home grown star. These players are supposed to be depth and need to knock off performing stars for their starting position to own the position, but instead we plan around them. This season, Mainoo and Garnacho were prime examples of what happens when you do this. Mainoo wasn't outstanding last season, he showed signs of potential, but there were numerous gaps in his game. We planned around him making the step up which was never a guarantee.
The larger point here is that depth is important. In today's league, you need players who can move the ball quickly and have the sharpness and speed to handle the pace of the league. We have players who can do this, but there aren't as many. The key thing is that when these players get injured, we are then forced to use players like Lindelof, Casemiro(speed) and Dorgu who bring a massive drop off in quality. Last year we had to use Evans. This is why other teams are able to maintain their quality for long periods of time, whilst we always seem to have massive fall offs in squad quality. This is not to say these sales shouldn't eventually happen, but they should only happen when we can guarantee that their replacement is better or that we have good enough depth to cope with an injury.
I don't see Mount as a starter and he doesn't have to be. The modern game is about depth and rotation. Mount happens to have the skillset to cover multiple positions in many scenarios, so he will end up playing as many games as Amad, Cunha and Bruno.
Amad is a 10 who can occassionally play at wing back if we are looking to go all out in attack.
I see Bruno as an 8 in this system playing alongside a new midfielder (DM) mostly. In bigger games, he can move up to the no.10 role, so Ugarte can add more defensive solidity.
I don't think Garnacho gets in the side. In fact, I would sell Garnacho if faced with the option. He doesn't fit the 10 role, and he's certainly not a wing back. In addition, there are way too many gaps in his game. However, if we don't, he has to settle for being depth in the 2 no.10 roles and try and compete with Amad and Cunha. Liverpool have Jota, Gakpo and Nunez who aren't guaranteed a starting spot. City have Grealish, Doku and Savinho in that scenario as well. It means that they always have options. Garnacho isn't good enough to squeeze into the team. Neither is Mainoo. They have to force a break through or they don't get in
That's what I'm thinking the squad is beginning to look pretty decent.
I agree. Does Shaw go to LWB with Martinez at LCB ?
Absolutely right. Foden doesn't always get in the City team. Watkins isn't always starting for Villa. Grealish doesn't get in the City team much at all. Folks that would walk into our team aren't making it at their clubs week in week out. Not that I'm that interested but I have no idea if certain names I know are Liverpool starters or not as some weeks they are there on MOTD and some weeks they aren't.
Are drop off in talent from first choice to second choice is way too big in quire a few positions which is slowly beginning to change. Slowly.
Is the 7 defensive players thing a meme now, or are some actually serious?
I just think if we changed managers every couple of seasons then it will be like the previous 10 years. A Cup here and there. Managers need time he has done well getting rid of Rashford , Sancho etc so he will do for me mate.
This is a fallacy. Managers don't need time. Ancelotti had immediate impact in both his seasons with Real Madrid and Chelsea as well. Mourinho had impact in his first seasons with Chelsea. Slot has impact on Liverpool in his first season. In fact there are far more examples of managers who were succesful initially and had immediate impact than becoming succesful with time. In fact most managers get worse with time. Yes, ferguson got time, but he had a great CV before. And it was a different time. United got worse with Amorim, significantly worse. I don't know a single example of a manager that had his team get worse and then it improves drastically. We are not winning premier league with Amorim.
When they come into a big shit show what our club has been under the Glazers then yes they need time. In my opinion.
Didn't expect 20 pages of thinly veiled Amorim-hate posts from the same 5 people patting each other on the back right after we beat the best defense in Spain 7-1. Impressive dedication.
This annoys me on match day threads a lot of hate but then we win and they won't praise him. Can't please some fans.
Asking to win two PL games in a row, which obviously is too much to ask.How can I know if I disagree or not, if I don't know what their definition of instant success is?
What's your definition of instant success?
Amorim has been here six months today. Happy half-birthday Ruben.
We improved massively in that respect when Amad, Mount and Mainoo came on, which is no surprise really since they're three of our best technicians.
It's hard to really judge Amorim or the system when he's only had Hojlund and Garnacho as his two attackers since February. Pep loses one player and he's having to spend £160m again in January to stop a run of 11 games without a win. We regularly miss 6 or 7 key players at a time and it's never really mentioned as a critical factor.
So happy for RA. He has had a crazy season, and he fully deserves to play this final the way he wants to. There is no doubt that his assessment of our current state is rather honest and close to reality. I am not expecting some great strides next season, but whatever I have seen this season as a team, I am very happy.
Players like Mount, Martinez, Shaw and JZ are going to be absolutely crucial next year. If these players stay fit and start firing, the new signings will get time to settle in and build rhythm. Otherwise its going to be disjointed performances every now and then. Really hope we win it.
Would be crazy 3 trophies in 3 season.
Players like Mount, Martinez, Shaw and JZ are going to be absolutely crucial next year. If these players stay fit and start firing, the new signings will get time to settle in and build rhythm. Otherwise its going to be disjointed performances every now and then. Really hope we win it.
Would be crazy 3 trophies in 3 season.
Absolutely. People often forget that Pep Guardiola’s first season with Manchester City was far from smooth. They finished third in the league, well behind Chelsea and Spurs, and suffered several calamitous defeats — including a 4–0 loss to Everton, a 4–2 defeat at Leicester (who were mid-table at the time and the score line flattered City), and heavy losses in Europe against Barcelona and Monaco.
That City side, however, already contained the nucleus of the team that would go on to dominate English football for six of the next seven seasons. Pep made key adjustments to the squad — for example, recognising his mistake in signing Claudio Bravo and swiftly correcting it by bringing in Ederson.
By contrast, our current squad is far weaker than the one Pep inherited. Even challenging for a Champions League spot next season would be a major achievement. But hopefully, during the summer, Amorim will be given the tools and support to fix the issues left behind before his arrival. With time and the right foundations, we can begin the long journey back to where we believe we truly belong.
Yeah true.
This thing of slowly building from the back, too much football in our own third, putting ourselves in trouble, is the one thing I worry about with Amorim's style.
You're right it did improve with the subs midweek. We do badly need these guys to stay fit and show us midweek wasn't a one off against tired legs. That they can help us progress the ball better up the pitch week after week from minute one of games.