Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach | Thread locked during matches

[OnceUponAFan]

Issue is, if the squad is relegation level how comes it gets results against Liverpool, City and Arsenal in the same season?

As you've said it, the set-up is the problem. Who does the set-up?
How cames we cant replicate the urgency and craft we displayed at Anfield? The squad is the same i believe...

We have a poor squad but not a relegation squad. That i will stand on it for ever.
We play badly because of poor set-up and poor tactics. When players play by instincts we play better.

So you don't think it was Amorim's set up that got us the results in those games and his tactics? Amorim wants to play a different brand of football that low block, counter attacking. Just as United fans do and just as ETH and Ole wanted to do in the seasons that got them sacked. United can't continue to play the underdog and it doesnt work again smaller teams.

Our squad is currently comfortable playing in the low block and this needs to change. That is on the recruitment and the manager. But that won't happen until the players are changed. I don't think it requires big personnel changes. I think it takes 3/4 key changes and Amorim will be able to get his players playing the way he wants.

The mid to high-line tactics aren't suited to the current set of players which is exacerbated by the injuries. You seem to think the solution it to get rid of the manager that can play that way and get a manager that will forever have us playing how the current squad is comfortable which is defensive, low block football.

For an example of how quickly things can change with the same manager, over a window, with a few purchases, just look at Forest.

 

[pocco]

Issue is, if the squad is relegation level how comes it gets results against Liverpool, City and Arsenal in the same season?

As you've said it, the set-up is the problem. Who does the set-up?
How cames we cant replicate the urgency and craft we displayed at Anfield? The squad is the same i believe...

We have a poor squad but not a relegation squad. That i will stand on it for ever.
We play badly because of poor set-up and poor tactics. When players play by instincts we play better.

Because when we play Liverpool, Arsenal and City, they dominate possession and it lends itself well to playing on the counter. They push high, look to break us down (as we try and fail vs smaller teams) and therefore leave themselves open.

I do think the players lower their level against smaller teams to an extent. Is it the setup? The setup is the same for me, the urgency is often lacking, the players look like they aren't as focused at times too and make individual errors in different parts of the pitch which either cost goals/chances or ruin potential attacks that we have. To me these same issues have existed for a long time now. I can't say if Amorim could do more or not, it must be frustrating for him to see players give the ball away so cheaply in dangerous areas for us, ruining attacks. Zirkzee has been a prime culprit at times recently, he will find space well between the lines, we'll pass the ball in to him and he will either miscontrol or control but then pass straight to the opposition. How can you ever see how this system will look if we fail to take the opportunities that the setup allows?

The squad isn't relegation standard if used for what it was built for (4231, tranisitonal team) but even then it wasn't a great squad and was getting exploited in many different ways by everyone we played. Unfortunately we added another issue into the mix though by hiring a manager with a completely different system. Which is fine if the club believes in the system and is commited to reshaping the squad. But we have to live with the reality of this situation until we can add some players that fill in the gaps a little.

 

[OnceUponAFan]

and this is why he deserves what ever is coming, earlier respected him and his stance to not sell out his principles even if it means him being sacked after month or two. When ever you trade your philosophy for survival, there is only one outcome in United, question is just when.

Because he's got an injury depleted squad and doesn't want to get battered against the big teams in big games?

Amorim is rightly using the word survive because we need to get to the summer, get a few players in and spend time on the training ground implementing his style. See Forest for an example of what can change with a summer.

As Amorim has said, if we don't get results (which we wont with his style, with this current set of players, at this time), then the players themselves will stop believing and he'll be out the door before he even reaches the summer. In games against smaller teams he is still clearly trying to implement his way of playing to get the players used to it but these players are too used to and too comfortable in a low block. We need some players back from injury, some players to come in in the summer and some time on the training ground. The last two managers failed when trying to move from the low block to a higher defensive line and ultimately got sacked. One of the reasons was recruitment. But I think we can see from the purchases of Dorgu, Yoro, Heaven, Ugarte and Leon, that we are recruiting to be able to play more on the front foot with a young aggressive defensive line. This isn't too disimilar to the changes in personnel Amorim went through during his first summer. Replacing regular starters with younger players that can play his way.

This won't change during the season and Amorim needs to be able to get enough points to still be in the job come the summer.

 

[Lemon Custard]

and this is why he deserves what ever is coming, earlier respected him and his stance to not sell out his principles even if it means him being sacked after month or two. When ever you trade your philosophy for survival, there is only one outcome in United, question is just when.

eh? You think Fergie would always put 'principles' ahead of getting good results? He was pragmatic when he needed to be.

 

[NLunited]

This man has a plan unlike many of his predecessors.

The management isn’t stupid, if this time next season he’s still struggling, he’s a goner but in the same vein, they will surely back him in the summer with a few key signings and give him the best chance possible because Amorim definitely is the profile of coach we need to take United forward.

A bit naive to think the previous managers didn‘t have a plan. Of course they did, they had plans within plans on top of plans.

Amorim is definitely the right profile, that is not in question.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

Players don't raise their level against the likes of City, Liverpool and Arsenal etc. It just so happens that in such games we don't have to worry about rhythm, tempo, control and how to move defences from side to side to create openings.

 

[RedSky]

Need to get him a striker than can score goals at the very least. Are we the only team in the league who don't have that?

​

Being slightly cruel here using the sort to make a point. This is data taken from Whoscored. This shows every player who's played in the FWD position, i've included anyone with 270+ mins. Sorted it by minutes per shot.

​

Player​	Club​	Mins​	Goals​	Min P Goal​	Shots​	Shots OT %​	Min P Shot​
Raúl Jiménez​	Fulham​	1696​	10​	170​	71​	36.62%​	24​
Erling Haaland​	Manchester City​	2394​	20​	120​	99​	57.58%​	24​
Rodrigo Muniz​	Fulham​	451​	1​	451​	17​	29.41%​	27​
Darwin Núñez​	Liverpool​	630​	3​	210​	23​	43.48%​	27​
Nicolas Jackson​	Chelsea​	1716​	9​	191​	62​	50.00%​	28​
Diogo Jota​	Liverpool​	689​	2​	345​	24​	16.67%​	29​
Alexander Isak​	Newcastle​	1984​	19​	104​	68​	50.00%​	29​
Ollie Watkins​	Aston Villa​	1964​	13​	151​	67​	49.25%​	29​
Beto​	Everton​	605​	5​	121​	19​	68.42%​	32​
Yoane Wissa​	Brentford​	1919​	12​	160​	59​	47.46%​	33​
Evanilson​	Bournemouth​	1400​	5​	280​	43​	51.16%​	33​
Luis Díaz​	Liverpool​	821​	3​	274​	25​	40.00%​	33​
Dango Ouattara​	Bournemouth​	614​	4​	154​	18​	50.00%​	34​
Dominic Calvert-Lewin​	Everton​	1479​	3​	493​	43​	37.21%​	34​
Paul Onuachu​	Southampton​	591​	1​	591​	17​	41.18%​	35​
Gabriel Jesus​	Arsenal​	488​	3​	163​	14​	42.86%​	35​
Dominic Solanke​	Tottenham​	1691​	7​	242​	48​	43.75%​	35​
Kai Havertz​	Arsenal​	1694​	7​	242​	48​	37.50%​	35​
Danny Welbeck​	Brighton​	1415​	6​	236​	38​	34.21%​	37​
Jarrod Bowen​	West Ham​	682​	3​	227​	18​	44.44%​	38​
Lucas Paquetá​	West Ham​	270​	1​	270​	7​	14.29%​	39​
Liam Delap​	Ipswich​	2098​	9​	233​	53​	47.17%​	40​
Jean-Philippe Mateta​	Crystal Palace​	2083​	12​	174​	52​	46.15%​	40​
Bryan Mbeumo​	Brentford​	540​	4​	135​	13​	53.85%​	42​
Joshua Zirkzee​	Manchester United​	587​	2​	294​	14​	57.14%​	42​
Cameron Archer​	Southampton​	802​	1​	802​	19​	26.32%​	42​
João Pedro​	Brighton​	932​	4​	233​	22​	50.00%​	42​
Chris Wood​	Nottingham Forest​	2255​	18​	125​	51​	58.82%​	44​
Son Heung-Min​	Tottenham​	270​	2​	135​	6​	100.00%​	45​
Michail Antonio​	West Ham​	736​	1​	736​	16​	18.75%​	46​
Jamie Vardy​	Leicester​	2146​	7​	307​	44​	43.18%​	49​
Leandro Trossard​	Arsenal​	473​	1​	473​	9​	33.33%​	53​
Jørgen Strand Larsen​	Wolves​	1874​	6​	312​	35​	68.57%​	54​
Rasmus Højlund​	Manchester United​	1227​	2​	614​	13​	53.85%​	94​

TLDR:

Rasmus Højlund:
Mins Per Goal: 614 (ranked 32nd/34)
Mins Per Shot: 94 (ranked 34th/34)
Shots OT %: 53.85% (Ranked 8th/34)

Joshua Zirkzee
Mins Per Goal: 294 (Ranked 24th/34)
Mins Per Shot: 42 (Ranked 25th/34)
Shots OT %: 57.14% (Ranked 6th/34)

 

[SoCross]

A bit naive to think the previous managers didn‘t have a plan. Of course they did, they had plans within plans on top of plans.

Amorim is definitely the right profile, that is not in question.

Correct, I may have exaggerated my words there. Point I was trying to make is that it’s clear what he is trying to implement on the pitch, a structure, a system within which players will be fitted in.

There wasn’t as this much of an emphasis on a system by previous managers.

 

[Santos J]

Need to get him a striker than can score goals at the very least. Are we the only team in the league who don't have that?

Southampton would give us a run for our money but other than that yeah I'd say so, maybe West Ham if you don't count Bowen

 

[stevoc]

and this is why he deserves what ever is coming, earlier respected him and his stance to not sell out his principles even if it means him being sacked after month or two. When ever you trade your philosophy for survival, there is only one outcome in United, question is just when.

Only an idiot would never adapt their tactics based on opposition and players available.

 

[GaryLifo]

United is a different animal to Sporting.
We had ETH who beat Madrid in 2019 at home in mesmerizing fashion and did collapse at United.

ETH won 15 home games. 15 games. And it was not enough at the end.
Can Amorim achieve that? From what he has shown?

The question is whether he can have a much better season next season that sees us finish much higher up the table and scoring more goals. I think he can do that, yes.

 

[Insanity]

Yoro, Heaven, De Ligt and Mazraoui all have enough pace to play a high line.

One of the main reasons we don't play a high line is because we lose the possession battle and naturally retreat, not because our centre halves are slow.

de Ligt and Maz are not fast. Yoro and Heaven don't play centrally and have little experience.

We definitely are not successful playing the high line because our CB's, especially CCB's, are slow and lack agility. They do not have recovery pace and are afraid to get countered. This is why teams find so much gap between our midfield and the defense to exploit. They cannot cover large spaces and leave us vulnerable.

It should be one of the top priorities if we hope to become a team capable of playing on the front foot.

 

[RedDevilCanuck]

He has changes his system. He goes very conservative at times.

Like ETH He can get a performance against a top team. Both don't realize that the average PL team can destroy a 2 man midfield.

This is why I'm very critical of Bruno despite knowing how good he can be. You can't have him in a midfield. Yes he can have some key moments. But the result WILL ALWAYS be getting completely overrun with zero control.

This system can work but we need 2 absolutely top class Midfielders and 2 top class WB who are creative and athletic and intelligent.

This is the biggest summer since 2006. And we have no money. I hope our scouts are prepared.

 

[Insanity]

Players don't raise their level against the likes of City, Liverpool and Arsenal etc. It just so happens that in such games we don't have to worry about rhythm, tempo, control and how to move defences from side to side to create openings.

It's really that simple but extremely hard to explain on here.

 

[sammyhol]

I am not against the objective, I am against trying to reach the objective when you lack the players to make the next step.

Of course, us rolling back the close 15-20 years would be great and I'd love it. But its one thing to say it and another thing to do it.

If you look at your squad and you know you cannot play in that dominant fashion, then you have to keep bringing in new players until its possible.

Maybe it takes more windows, more time? At this point what difference does it make? Its not like Ole, Ten Hag and others trying to fast forward the process has taken us forward. In fact its probably taken us backwards. I don't think some of these have ever gotten over the losses we've had against Liverpool in the last few years. How can you convince a squad that's taken those kind of defeats that the club's headed in the right direction..?

I am not going to say we would have won the title playing counter attacking football. But think about how much harder its become to even convince top players to stay or sign for Man Utd. We're not looking likely for Champions League football soon, nevermind winning the damn thing. That might have been avoided by boring our way to 65-80 points for a few years until we could sign the guys to take us beyond that.

Amorim took over when we were 6 points off the top four. His decisions, seemingly under the weight of this Man Utd cannot play low block idea, have made that impossible. I think its right to question why the hell he even thought this was ever a good idea and to be relieved that sanity finally seems to have won out.

I couldn't agree with this sentiment more.

Let's have it right.... ETH just got it completely wrong in the summer after his first full year. It was the time for baby steps progression, not a complete revolution in the style of play.

The vast majority of fans we calling for the same solution. We needed a midfielder with legs to sit alongside Casemiro or Eriksen in the double pivot, and a striker with pace.

Now Hojlund arguably hasnt worked out, but it was at least an understandable player profile. Where he got it all wrong was signing Mount as the midfield solution and ripping up the low block 4231 for his kamikaze high press 41(huge gap)41.

Had he had simply gone evolution not revolution we undoubtedly would have faired better.

 

[Insanity]

And this is why it's correct to say that our two forwards are relegation standard and wouldnt even get on the pitch if they played for Wolves or Everton.

Even a Delap or Welbeck would see us into the top 10 with the chances Hojlund and Zirkzee miss and what they lack in build up.

That's why I wanted a striker as a top priority before a LWB in January, if only had financial space to get one (loan or purchase). Unfortunately, that didn't materialize and we are continuing to suffer.

 

[VP89]

Yes, he was dropped by Tuchel and he was not happy about it. I think at different points he was dropped for different reasons. First time Tuchel mentioned his passing between the lines not being as good as their other CBs, which I can agree with. Second time I believe he was dropped for Dier due to him being better in the higher line.

He's not rapid by any means, he gave away a dangerous freekick yesterday because he couldn't keep up with the Arsenal player and brought him down on the edge of the box. He gets beaten in little 2-3m races too often where he is slow to turn. His positioning is something that has been criticised about him for years but I think Amorim has got him a bit better coordinated recently.

Yes, he was dropped by Tuchel and he was not happy about it. I think at different points he was dropped for different reasons. First time Tuchel mentioned his passing between the lines not being as good as their other CBs, which I can agree with. Second time I believe he was dropped for Dier due to him being better in the higher line.

He's not rapid by any means, he gave away a dangerous freekick yesterday because he couldn't keep up with the Arsenal player and brought him down on the edge of the box. He gets beaten in little 2-3m races too often where he is slow to turn. His positioning is something that has been criticised about him for years but I think Amorim has got him a bit better coordinated recently.

Do you have the figures to hand in terms of how many games MDL was actually dropped for? If I'm not mistaken he had about 22 appearances and missed 5 from injury. He was dropped in Feb from a quick online scan and then reintroduced if I'm not mistaken (the Bayern fans were confused by this too, it reads like the time Ten Hag dropped Varane to the bemusement of our own fans).

Regarding the 2-3m races, this is for most center backs. It doesn't mean they're all unsuited to a high line. It's also about positioning and being quick on a turn and on a transition (ie being able to make up ground over a longer patch too). De Ligt is actually surprisingly explosive in some recoveries.

 

[mctrials23]

He is changing at this point because he realises that his survival as manager is on the line and I think he has simply run out of ideas on how to get the players available to him to do what he is asking. Football is a team sport and if 2-3 of your keys players can't or won't do what you are asking then you can't play a certain way.

When he has said he won't abandon his principles I think he was still of the opinion that these players just needed it to click. I think he has now realised that they simply aren't going to adapt in too many cases. When your WBs won't cross, your 10s won't run with the ball or beat a man and your entire team seems intent on making at least one goal costing feck up every game, something has to give. When almost all the players who vaguely can do what you want are injured, something has to give.

Hes just finally hit that point where hes realised that his current job is to survive until the summer, test some of the youth players, salvage anything he can EL wise and hope to get the signings he needs come summer.

 

[Licha-Vidic]

Because when we play Liverpool, Arsenal and City, they dominate possession and it lends itself well to playing on the counter. They push high, look to break us down (as we try and fail vs smaller teams) and therefore leave themselves open.

I do think the players lower their level against smaller teams to an extent. Is it the setup? The setup is the same for me, the urgency is often lacking, the players look like they aren't as focused at times too and make individual errors in different parts of the pitch which either cost goals/chances or ruin potential attacks that we have. To me these same issues have existed for a long time now. I can't say if Amorim could do more or not, it must be frustrating for him to see players give the ball away so cheaply in dangerous areas for us, ruining attacks. Zirkzee has been a prime culprit at times recently, he will find space well between the lines, we'll pass the ball in to him and he will either miscontrol or control but then pass straight to the opposition. How can you ever see how this system will look if we fail to take the opportunities that the setup allows?

The squad isn't relegation standard if used for what it was built for (4231, tranisitonal team) but even then it wasn't a great squad and was getting exploited in many different ways by everyone we played. Unfortunately we added another issue into the mix though by hiring a manager with a completely different system. Which is fine if the club believes in the system and is commited to reshaping the squad. But we have to live with the reality of this situation until we can add some players that fill in the gaps a little.

Again... 433 of Madrid or 433 of City or 433 of Arsenal or 433 of Klopp, 433 Barca team

are all different ball game.. teams play in the image of the manager.
Klopp will press like maniac, Pep will keep the ball, Madrid will tackle the games as it goes.

Whatever name we put on Amorim setup or system, he is very defensive. Too defensive.
This is supported by too many metrics.

1. Yesterday is the first game since December 1st. 2024 we scored in first half in PL. Thats more than 3 months of PL football.
2. Amorim has managed 17 PL games he has managed 19 points. Thats a draw a game. 2 more games we are half of a season game mark. Yet he will be 20 point mark.
3. Amorim has not won 2 consecutive PL games since he arrived here. Just 2 games. Thats is in around 156 days. 5 months.


Leave the arguments angels, just look at those statistics.
Even at our worst of worst period, we have never experienced a 20 points in 20 games period.
Whatever Amorim is doing is not delivering, sadly its not players for this shit period. People will not agree but this squad if set-up with right balance in attack and defence we should win half of our games.


4231 by ETH achieved 15 home wins.

Can Amorim win 15 home games? Do you believe he can? From what he has been showing?

Also, what will it take to get back to just winning 15 home games? The money, squad revamp, pain through it..

In that, it would have been cheaper to remain how we were because the cost needed to return to where Ole and ETH had us on ( position 2 and 3) will be huge yet its not even guaranteed Amorim will achieve those heights.

Let nobody cheat you that Amorim will be a success, all indicators are pointing to him failing.

ETH used to win 15 home games in a season and failed but Amorim who doesn't win 2 games back to back in 5 months will be a success .

 

[Gordon'sHill]

He is changing at this point because he realises that his survival as manager is on the line and I think he has simply run out of ideas on how to get the players available to him to do what he is asking. Football is a team sport and if 2-3 of your keys players can't or won't do what you are asking then you can't play a certain way.

When he has said he won't abandon his principles I think he was still of the opinion that these players just needed it to click. I think he has now realised that they simply aren't going to adapt in too many cases. When your WBs won't cross, your 10s won't run with the ball or beat a man and your entire team seems intent on making at least one goal costing feck up every game, something has to give. When almost all the players who vaguely can do what you want are injured, something has to give.

Hes just finally hit that point where hes realised that his current job is to survive until the summer, test some of the youth players, salvage anything he can EL wise and hope to get the signings he needs come summer.

There are two problems. First our squad is really poor, its the worst I have ever seen. We have too many players who are done (like Shaw, Casimero and Eriksen, possibly Mount), not good enough (Maguire, Zirkzee, Hojlund, Dalot, Lindelof, Onana and maybe more). Then there is a manager who needs very specific types of player to make his system work, and we don't have them. Some of the 442 videos are really good on highlighting what should happen vs what does happen on the pitch for Amorim's approach to work. Which asks the question should a good manager be able to get more out of this squad, despite the problems I mentioned, then the answer is yes. I am not sure though he can.

 

[#07]

I couldn't agree with this sentiment more.

Let's have it right.... ETH just got it completely wrong in the summer after his first full year. It was the time for baby steps progression, not a complete revolution in the style of play.

The vast majority of fans we calling for the same solution. We needed a midfielder with legs to sit alongside Casemiro or Eriksen in the double pivot, and a striker with pace.

Now Hojlund arguably hasnt worked out, but it was at least an understandable player profile. Where he got it all wrong was signing Mount as the midfield solution and ripping up the low block 4231 for his kamikaze high press 41(huge gap)41.

Had he had simply gone evolution not revolution we undoubtedly would have faired better.

Totally agree and its really odd that Ten Hag stubbornly persisted with the donut midfield for months, when everyone was crying out for him to change.

It was not like the fans put the pressure on him after the first season. We wanted to kick on from finishing a distant third, especially when after we beat City in early spring it looked like we might be able to go to Palace and Arsenal and make a run of it.

However, I cannot remember ever hearing anyone say: Right next season he has to be able to outplay Man City or we riot. Yet Ten Hag got to his first summer and just went for broke.

The 4-1-4-1 wasn't working at all. Yet he dug in when nobody wanted it. When we were actively booing it and people were openly groaning at his subs when he refused to change. Also lets not think people inside the club couldn't see it. The very first thing Ruud did as caretaker was play a Casemiro, Ugarte double pivot. So, clearly, it wasn't just us fans being shocked by Ten Hag's suicidal football.

I'd love to hear some convincing explanation of why he kept going with it, and why Amorim has shown a similar level of lemming like commitment to exposing our weaknesses to all and sundry.

That was why I asked earlier: Why did Amorim feel he had to apologise for the way we played yesterday? Is there someone higher up putting pressure on our coaches to try and make a silk purse out of a sow's ear?

Cos I reckon Amorim could've done a whole lot better than he will end this season doing, just by playing a bit more pragmatically and getting safely to the summer when he can bring in the players needed to change things.

 

[Ted Lasso]

and this is why he deserves what ever is coming, earlier respected him and his stance to not sell out his principles even if it means him being sacked after month or two. When ever you trade your philosophy for survival, there is only one outcome in United, question is just when.

Only an idiot would never adapt their tactics based on opposition and players available.

I would be most concerned if we don't get new players in , shift the incompatible out and start next season not playing the way Amorim wants.

At that point we have to do everything possible to get Ineos and the Glazers out.

 

[Olecurls99]

de Ligt and Maz are not fast. Yoro and Heaven don't play centrally and have little experience.

We definitely are not successful playing the high line because our CB's, especially CCB's, are slow and lack agility. They do not have recovery pace and are afraid to get countered. This is why teams find so much gap between our midfield and the defense to exploit. They cannot cover large spaces and leave us vulnerable.

It should be one of the top priorities if we hope to become a team capable of playing on the front foot.

Which centre half do you think we can get that'll be a better player than Yoro?

 

[Adnan]

We've got 9 CBs. Why would you prioritise a CB when we are clearly shorter in the other areas?

Because not many of those CBs are suited to defending from the front in larger space on the half way line.

 

[Olecurls99]

Because not many of those CBs are suited to defending from the front in larger space on the half way line.

Agree to disagree

 

[Aleryan]

An amazing performance against Arsenal and almost scoring a few past Arsenal if not for their last min save. The team is getting better now with all the new players finally blooding in.

Yoro, De Ligt, Ugarte are all going to replace the Maguire or Casemiro now.

 

[NLunited]

Correct, I may have exaggerated my words there. Point I was trying to make is that it’s clear what he is trying to implement on the pitch, a structure, a system within which players will be fitted in.

There wasn’t as this much of an emphasis on a system by previous managers.

That‘s your opinion. It was eventually clear to me what Ten Hag was trying to do, the team could not do it consistently.

It is not so different now.

 

[Gordon'sHill]

That‘s your opinion. It was eventually clear to me what Ten Hag was trying to do, the team could not do it consistently.

It is not so different now.

It was clear what Ten Hag was trying to do? Really? Please elaborate as to every pundit and most observers it was just chaos. Almost every team we played walked through our midfield and carved us open almost at will.

 

[wolvored]

That‘s your opinion. It was eventually clear to me what Ten Hag was trying to do, the team could not do it consistently.

It is not so different now.

TH gave up on what he was trying to achieve, as in playing like Ajax, like he was bought in to do.
Remember when he said "We will never play the football we played at Ajax here" He just allowed the players to dictate the way we played then.

 

[DonBecks]

That‘s your opinion. It was eventually clear to me what Ten Hag was trying to do, the team could not do it consistently.

It is not so different now.

It's extremely generous to Ten Hag to say it was clear what he was trying to do.

 

[AjaxCunian]

TH gave up on what he was trying to achieve, as in playing like Ajax, like he was bought in to do.
Remember when he said "We will never play the football we played at Ajax here" He just allowed the players to dictate the way we played then.

I don't think it was such a matter of giving up. But with Bruno and Rashford you cannot play the kind of football he played at Ajax, those were his best players at United.

When Shaw, Martinez were fit, we often played our best football. He wanted to play a more direct version of his Ajax team, with more speed, which suits Bruno and Rashford more.

Eventually, he couldnt get the midfield balance right at all, and injuries also hampered the progression. Some forget we played with no LB all season, and how crucial Martinez was for our buildup, also largely injured.

Onana, Mazraoui, De Ligt, Martinez, Shaw, Ugarte/Casemiro, Mainoo, Bruno, Diallo, Hojlund, Rashford/Garnacho could have made quite a good team.

But I think he already lost the dressing room, players had lost confidence and he still had struggles with the tactics.

But at times we looked very good under him this season, that Brighton match was a freak that we lost it for example.

 

[JPRouve]

It was clear what Ten Hag was trying to do? Really? Please elaborate as to every pundit and most observers it was just chaos. Almost every team we played walked through our midfield and carved us open almost at will.

It was tragically silly but clear. The reason our midfield was open is because the pressing scheme was designed to hurry the opposition and force midrange passes, at that point the goal was to trap the ball carrier between the CBs and the backchecking midfielders/attackers. That kind of tactics is relatively common in Hockey but it doesn't work in Football unless your players are equipped with teleportation devices since the field is way bigger. That boneheaded tactic was made even worse by the fact that he would use deep runs from Fullbacks as outlets in transition which means that unless the attackingtransition ends up with a shot our team would start it's defensive transition in a 6112 with the open grass near the kickoff circle and on both flanks.

 

[R'hllor]

Only an idiot would never adapt their tactics based on opposition and players available.

Yea and where are all those that adapted in United, also adapting to opposition means its not you who dictating dominating shit, guess those coaches are idiots.

 

[R'hllor]

eh? You think Fergie would always put 'principles' ahead of getting good results? He was pragmatic when he needed to be.

Why mentioning Fergie, this is about post SAF period

 

[TrivelaDeBruno]

None of the managers from Ole onwards could really implement what they wanted to do because ultimately the players were allowed to do what they want, work hard when they felt like it and turn the dressing room toxic without fear of losing their place or being sold. I'm just speculating of course, but I don't think it's a coincidence this is finally changing even if just a little bit when the Glazers are no longer in charge of the football side. Implementing any kind of style of play and tactics takes a buy in, discipline and cohesion amongst the players. We have none of that and will continue to have none of it until the dressing room is completely reset the way Arsenal reset their dressing room for Arteta.

 

[quadrant]

It was tragically silly but clear. The reason our midfield was open is because the pressing scheme was designed to hurry the opposition and force midrange passes, at that point the goal was to trap the ball carrier between the CBs and the backchecking midfielders/attackers. That kind of tactics is relatively common in Hockey but it doesn't work in Football unless your players are equipped with teleportation devices since the field is way bigger. That bonehead tactic was made even worse by the fact that he would use deep runs from Fullbacks as outlets in transition which means that unless the attackingtransition ends up with a shot our team would start it's defensive transition in a 6112 with the open grass near the kickoff circle and on both flanks.

I think it was one of those ideas that seemed good when he dreamed it up on the beach in the off season, but was never going to work in the harsh reality of a long league season. We live in an era when even a mid-table team can play through a press, so pressing has to be just part of the plan, not the only plan. And the sheer intensity required to make ETH's scheme work was never going to be viable long term, even if he had got it to work in one off games.

I think its a bad comparison to compare what Amorim is doing to what ETH did. ETH's approach was a bit of a hare brained scheme from the outset. Amorim's approach is basically in line with what most big clubs do these days, except he keeps 3 at the back in the defensive phase as well as the offensive phase. All coaches have their own spin on things, but generally speaking his approach is pretty straightforward. Its the same post-Guardiola/post-Klopp type tactics we see all Europe these days. Its just that United haven't really done it before, other than an interesting but failed spell under LVG.

 

[mctrials23]

Some of the 442 videos are really good on highlighting what should happen vs what does happen on the pitch for Amorim's approach to work. Which asks the question should a good manager be able to get more out of this squad, despite the problems I mentioned, then the answer is yes. I am not sure though he can.

I think the issue is that to get more from this squad you need to go back to a 4-4-2. We didn't hire him for that. As I think I said, there is only so much you can do if a player isn't trying to do what they are asked. It feels like what is required to play Amorims system and what the players are doing is a gulf and honestly, it doesn't seem that hard to do either. Its just compounded at the moment with the injuries we have and our misfiring forwards.

We simply have to stick or twist. We have to accept that quite a few of these players need to go or we need to accept that Amorim needs to go and another manager needs to come in and work with what he has more. We probably should have gone for a manager who plays a more standard 4-4-2 variant until the squad was of a better overall quality but they clearly had a plan with Amorim (well I hope so). Too many of these players are not athletic nor technical. We have a horrible mish mash of the two and not in the right positions.

 

[JPRouve]

I think it was one of those ideas that seemed good when he dreamed it up on the beach in the off season, but was never going to work in the harsh reality of a long league season. We live in an era when even a mid-table team can play through a press, so pressing has to be just part of the plan, not the only plan. And the sheer intensity required to make ETH's scheme work was never going to be viable long term, even if he had got it to work in one off games.

I think its a bad comparison to compare what Amorim is doing to what ETH did. ETH's approach was a bit of a hare brained scheme from the outset. Amorim's approach is basically in line with what most big clubs do these days, except he keeps 3 at the back in the defensive phase as well as the offensive phase. All coaches have their own spin on things, but generally speaking his approach is pretty straightforward. Its the same post-Guardiola/post-Klopp type tactics we see all Europe these days. Its just that United haven't really done it before, other than an interesting but failed spell under LVG.

Yeah, the theory isn't bad and it's even a good starting point for different ways to do things but you can't implement it the way we did. And it wasn't a case of intensity but simple geometry and physics, you can't cover that kind of space with 11 players, it's simply not possible because no player can travel faster than the ball. At the end of the day Football is fairly simple, it's a game where you want to deny space to your opponents in order to prevent goalscoring chances and exploit spaces that they give you in order to create goalscoring chances. If your attacking or defensive tactics puts a player out of position for the next transition then that's a weakness that you need to manage or eliminate by adapting your formation aka coverage otherwise the opposition will exploit it.

 

[SoCross]

That‘s your opinion. It was eventually clear to me what Ten Hag was trying to do, the team could not do it consistently.

It is not so different now.

Ok mate if you say so. Ten Hag was our chaos after his first season. But just my opinion.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

It was tragically silly but clear. The reason our midfield was open is because the pressing scheme was designed to hurry the opposition and force midrange passes, at that point the goal was to trap the ball carrier between the CBs and the backchecking midfielders/attackers. That kind of tactics is relatively common in Hockey but it doesn't work in Football unless your players are equipped with teleportation devices since the field is way bigger. That bonehead tactic was made even worse by the fact that he would use deep runs from Fullbacks as outlets in transition which means that unless the attackingtransition ends up with a shot our team would start it's defensive transition in a 6112 with the open grass near the kickoff circle and on both flanks.

Yeah it was pretty "clear" just incredibly stupid and nonsensical if you're aim is anything other than playing like Bielsa at Leeds before he got them relegated.