We could do with a profligate and demotivated, unsettled player? One who publicly states he wants out?
If it was Rooney, Cantona or Ronaldo, yeah, I'd agree but Rashford isn't worth appeasing that way.
He's been in the job 4 or 5 monthsUnderstand the sentiment but both Ole and Eth have achieved more domestically then Amorim.
Postecoglu has a defined system at Tottenham, a system stands for very little unless it yields success.
It’s very simple, Amorim decided or at least agreed to weaken the squad this January. It’s absurd to suggest Rashford wouldn’t have been useful with the attack we’ve fielded.We could do with a profligate and demotivated, unsettled player? One who publicly states he wants out?
If it was Rooney, Cantona or Ronaldo, yeah, I'd agree but Rashford isn't worth appeasing that way.
Then the defence becomes that Rashford doesnt want to play for United and there is nothing that Amorim could have done to get more out of Rashford here.It’s very simple, Amorim decided or at least agreed to weaken the squad this January. It’s absurd to suggest Rashford wouldn’t have been useful with the attack we’ve fielded.
Yeah, but that’s a daft defence. Would it have been better to have Rashford as an option this spring than Chido Obi? Only someone on an agenda would say no. Then get rid of Rashford in the summer where you have a chance to get someone in. Noone forced us to reduce our attacking options to the bare minimum this January.Then the defence becomes that Rashford doesnt want to play for United and there is nothing that Amorim could have done to get more out of Rashford here.
Ole has been our best manager post SAF. Shame it went so sour with him as he totally got the club and the fans.Ole played counter attacking football against the best teams, City, Liverpool, PSG etc. He was realistic enough to understand that we have no chance to dominate those.
Against the worst teams we tried to build and dominate, the tactics weren't always spot on, but we got the results.
Ole has been our best manager post SAF. Shame it went so sour with him as he totally got the club and the fans.
I’d take him back in a heartbeat if it meant we gave Amorim the boot. Much better manager in the PL for us. No question.
He's been in the job 4 or 5 months
This is a worry as well, out of every position on the field the defence for quality is one of the most well covered areas yet the team always concedes significant chances.
Having Onana doesn't help but on the balance of play, United are so vulnerable in the areas either side of the wider defensive centre backs and wingbacks. Additionally, when you consider that there's an average 6-7 defensive orientated players in most fixtures it further exposes Amorim's inability to adequately coach this formation out of possession.
Remember posting beforehand with my expectations for the team (before Rubens appointment) to struggle scoring goals but to be robust defensively. Therefore the club have a manager with a pragmatic ideology yet still the teams performances aren't benefitting from these approaches.
that's a really short term view I thinkWith a 33% win percentage it's a guarantee that he will finish the season with the worst record of any manager post SAF. He's given himself the lowest chance of success at the club.
Well people said Ole wasn't a PL level manager but he had us consistently in and around the top 4. Before Ten Hag came in and trashed the squad.Then we might as well hire a manager from the Championship and spend the money elsewhere.
Real sliding doors moment that Summer that Ronaldo came in.....Well people said Ole wasn't a PL level manager but he had us consistently in and around the top 4. Before Ten Hag came in and trashed the squad.
It's been the main agenda on here, you are not allowed to praise Rashford or say he isn't useless. Everything gets played down or that it is only now that he bothers.Yeah, but that’s a daft defence. Would it have been better to have Rashford as an option this spring than Chido Obi? Only someone on an agenda would say no. Then get rid of Rashford in the summer where you have a chance to get someone in. Noone forced us to reduce our attacking options to the bare minimum this January.
To be fair, I'd rather win trophies than just compete for top 4 without ever looking at competing in the CL. What is the point of CL football whilst looking a joke in it, they both struggled in the CL group stages.Well people said Ole wasn't a PL level manager but he had us consistently in and around the top 4. Before Ten Hag came in and trashed the squad.
Agree, said it was a mistake not going for Rice instead that summer at the time.Real sliding doors moment that Summer that Ronaldo came in.....
had we signed a good passing, defensive midfielder it could have been a game changer
Ole is a good example of both the exaggeration put on the role of a manager but also how important it is. He got the United culture and was clearly a good communicator. He inherited a strong squad with some top class players and got them playing with more freedom. He was let down by recruitment and his own limitations, tactically very limited and its suggested he blocked suggestions from Carrick and Mckenna to play more expansively and possession based. He should never have been more than an interim but shows that you don't need to be elite to have some success at management. I also think people are a bit rose tinted about Ole now, there were some highs but lots of lows too.Well people said Ole wasn't a PL level manager but he had us consistently in and around the top 4. Before Ten Hag came in and trashed the squad.
that's a really short term view I think
the club have gone down a different route tactically
Amorim has inherited a squad partly lacking physicality, partly technically limited, partly chronically injured who've been more suited to counter attacking football.
it's been clear this is a long term project and PSR will be an obstacle to overcome as things change
I think we will see an improvement next year but I think it will take a couple of Summer windows to really see us play effectively, with quality and style
A bit of luck on transfers (someone taking unwanted players off our hands) and a Europa League win would greatly accelerate the process
Not sure i understand the lowest chance of success line.
He doesn’t have the players for attacking football in his system. It’s that simple. If we played attacking football with the players we have in his system matches would finish 2-5 or 1-4 like they regularly did under ETH - Newcastle aside, while the results haven’t been great they’ve been a lot closer and that’s with 3 less attackers than ETH had at his disposal.This is my issue as well. The setup as it is currently played is inherently defensive. Yes at Sporting that team had a more attacking appetite, but Amorim's United team so far has been setup defensively. It is effectively a flat back 5 most of the time rather than an attacking back 3. Regardless of whether we have the players or not that has been the reality of the setup so far. So with that setup you'd at least expect us to be solid defensively... and yet we are not.
What makes it even more frustrating is the amount of times we have more than enough bodies back and still concede. As you pointed out, our defence individually is the one area where no fan should say is a bottom half level defence. Those defensive players in my opinion are good enough for a defence pushing for Europa league. Add in the fact that we are lately also playing 2 defensive minded players in midfield, the team should at least be defensively solid, which it is not. When you look at the goals we concede under Amorim there are individual errors in there, there are also goals where teams are just exploiting the very obvious flaws in the system which mainly revolves around exploiting space either side of the midfield and occupying all 3 of our CBs with one attacker...
So we have effectively neutered ourselves attacking wise since Amorim has joined for no extra defensive stability. This with a team that was already struggling to score (although not struggling to create chances)
that's a really short term view I think
the club have gone down a different route tactically
Amorim has inherited a squad partly lacking physicality, partly technically limited, partly chronically injured who've been more suited to counter attacking football.
it's been clear this is a long term project and PSR will be an obstacle to overcome as things change
I think we will see an improvement next year but I think it will take a couple of Summer windows to really see us play effectively, with quality and style
A bit of luck on transfers (someone taking unwanted players off our hands) and a Europa League win would greatly accelerate the process
Not sure i understand the lowest chance of success line.
How long do you stay the course if he doesn't get off to a good start next season in my opinion they'll be no coming back from that as he has no credit from this season to lean into unless he wins Europa which is no means a given
Then why are we debating the merits of Ruben Amorim? Let’s get Neil Warnock in asap.Well people said Ole wasn't a PL level manager but he had us consistently in and around the top 4. Before Ten Hag came in and trashed the squad.
I think Antony rejuvenated would be decent on the right with Amad. They could genuinely swap in-game between the wing back and forward roles and cause havoc on that side, potentially dragging extra players over that would leave openings in the middle for us to exploit.Rashford's gone either way I think. Outside of the inconsistency on the pitch his wage is a huge problem and the fee he brings is going to be needed to back Amorim. Be interesting to see what we do with Antony though.
That's how I see it too.Very few of the current players will be performing better under this system by next season, if they cant perform better in it after 5 months of competitive games I doubt they are suddenly going to improve in it after a few pre-season friendlies in Malaysia
Believing anything else would be against better evidence and pure hopeThat's how I see it too.
Real sliding doors moment that Summer that Ronaldo came in.....
It also fails because it's not 1983, anymore.The Aberdeen comparison due to a weak league falls very short when you remember Fergie won a European trophy beating both Madrid and Bayern on the way to winning
Ole won nothing in three seasons. His squad building was also terrible. Never fixed the midfield, overspent on Maguire and was tactically infirm. He also inherited a far superior squad than Amorim has.Well people said Ole wasn't a PL level manager but he had us consistently in and around the top 4. Before Ten Hag came in and trashed the squad.
It's imperative.
That's how I see it too.
Yeah, but that’s a daft defence. Would it have been better to have Rashford as an option this spring than Chido Obi? Only someone on an agenda would say no. Then get rid of Rashford in the summer where you have a chance to get someone in. Noone forced us to reduce our attacking options to the bare minimum this January.
We are largely on the same page, then. I agree this squad is largely suited to back 4 shapes. However, I feel the greatest thing overlooked about this squad is the knowledge gap they are being forced to over come. 95% of them had NEVER operated in back 3 systems at any level. Bar Maguire, Shaw, Mount, Amad and Hoijlund (I believe) when the switch to a back 3 strategem occurred. Not enough slack is being cut to these players that they are literally learning the formation on the job! Yet at the same time having to try and learn front foot, posession control and pressing football fron the manager. Yet this is ocuuring with minimal training time in mid season, yet the side already was struggling with confidence and mentality before it all began! So it tends to be surspring so many fans are ultra focused on results and position in the table. Rather than whether there has been signigcany progress amongst these players in understanding of playing position, team shape, plus how the coach prefers them to operate on and off the ball as a unit.
In my personal view over the 21 game period we have become a much better team at understanding team how to operate in the preffered 3-4-3 of the coach. Even with personnel issues, when using our strongest possible available team, opponents no longer walk all over us like they were doing even at our best under ETH. We are much harder to play against than when he first took over. Our only significant draw back is we are still just as toothless upfront. Which to be fair to him (even them) is entirely a personnel issue.
The single most damaging aspect of the Ten Hag era was a lack of quality in recruitment. I don’t think the formation really matters. An extreme example, but if we had Alphonse Davies and Hakimi at wingback, Rice and Neves at CM, Wirtz at 10 and Harry Kane, we’d be challenging for the league. Obviously not all of those were even available, but talent matters.
I think if you look at top 15 clubs in the world, virtually every one of our first choice 11 would be squad rotation players. Maybe only Bruno would be in with a shout.
He doesn’t have the players for attacking football in his system. It’s that simple. If we played attacking football with the players we have in his system matches would finish 2-5 or 1-4 like they regularly did under ETH - Newcastle aside, while the results haven’t been great they’ve been a lot closer and that’s with 3 less attackers than ETH had at his disposal.
He’s being pragmatic for the current season, he’s introducing players to his system while making use of the strength of our squad to try to keep results respectable and the strength of our squad is definitely in our defensive numbers. De Ligt, Yoro, Maguire, (Martinez), Mazraoui, Dalot, Dorgu is a hell of a lot better than Højlund, Zirkzee, Garnacho, (Amad) so it makes sense to turn the dial towards defense rather than attack until we have the players to turn the dial back the other way.
Agree with this 100%
When Amorim took over, this was our squad
Altay Bayindir (not played)
Tom Heaton (not played)
Andre Onana (awful player, needs replacing)
Victor Lindelof (crap but leaving)
Noussair Mazraoui (solid, played multiple positions)
Matthijs de Ligt (solid)
Maguire (solid when required)
Lisandro Martinez (mostly injured )
Leny Yoro (injury issues but finding his feet)
Luke Shaw (mostly injured)
Diogo Dalot (mainly decent, multiple positions)
Evans (old)
Mason Mount (mostly injured)
Christian Eriksen (old)
Casemiro (old but been useful recently)
Manuel Ugarte (solid)
Kobbie Mainoo (struggled, injured haven't helped)
Harry Amass (kid)
Bruno Fernandes (usual self, always productive)
Antony (loaned out)
Rashford (loaned out)
Sancho (loaned out)
Rasmus Hojlund (struggled prior to Amorim)
Joshua Zirkzee ( starting to find his feet)
Obi (kid)
Garnacho (struggled, his own attitude doesn't help him)
Amad Diallo (improved massively, one of our best players)
Yeah, but that’s a daft defence. Would it have been better to have Rashford as an option this spring than Chido Obi? Only someone on an agenda would say no. Then get rid of Rashford in the summer where you have a chance to get someone in. Noone forced us to reduce our attacking options to the bare minimum this January.
Murtough and ETH have destroyed the squad, nearly all their recruitment decisions are baffling, they have spent so much money and such dumb wages that there is nothing left. THere are plenty on here who defended both of them, especially ETH. Some still try and make excuses for him. Absolutely terrible manager.Well you're right there. The squad Ten Hag took over with £600m worth of talent added should be challenging for the title this season.
Instead he got rid of 80% of them and brought in a load of dross.
In nearly 6 months, Amorim has had about 10 training sessions tops. How could we expect to see much improvement? In pre-season, we will improve by a huge margin.Believing anything else would be against better evidence and pure hope
Wait what? How is that possible? Not saying you're wrong but 10 sessions in 6 months doesn't seem to add up.In nearly 6 months, Amorim has had about 10 training sessions tops. How could we expect to see much improvement? In pre-season, we will improve by a huge margin.
Better still let's get your man Howe and replace our players with my Sunday league team if he's such a genius.Then why are we debating the merits of Ruben Amorim? Let’s get Neil Warnock in asap.
Better still let's get your man Howe and replace our players with my Sunday league team if he's such a genius.
