Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach | Thread locked during matches

Should United part ways with Amorim?

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astracrazy said:
Yes I know the difference, and like I said you are proving what I said. You seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing. But why you resort to making stupid comments like this I have no idea.
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Clearly you dont... again I will say it..

being tactically flexible in games for 10 minutes is NOT the same as losing 2 games and throwing all your principles out the window, which is what Ten Hag did to get results.

I get it you dont like the manager but wanting someone for short terms results and no long term plan is not what is needed at United right now.
 
romufc said:
If you are looking at things on paper, then I agree the trajectory is worrisome.

However; if you look at it with context and objectivity, its not.

1. We have number of players which should have gone years ago and Amorim has decided to do so.. the likes of Rashford, Eriksen, Evans, Antony all need to be replaced.
2. The lack of experienced forwards in our team
3. The lack of system for the players, they are all used to having it their own way and the manager adapting. First time we have had a manager who says.. its my way or nothing. So, it will take time for players to adapt to the system.
4. Lack of profiles that work well in the PL, let alone the formation.

Since he has come in, we have improved defensively and we are getting better at creating chances.
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We haven't improved defensively we concede more goals under Amorim than Ten Hag, we don't give up lots of shots but we give up goals especially to above average teams such as Newcastle and Lyon
 
Gavinb33 said:
We haven't improved defensively we concede more goals under Amorim than Ten Hag, we don't give up lots of shots but we give up goals especially to above average teams such as Newcastle and Lyon
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Thats fine, I respect your opinion.

In my opinion when watching the games, I feel we have improved defensively, where I used to watch teams pass our midfield like its not there creating chance after chance, shot after shot.

Watching us in a mid block, I am alot more comfortable watching than under Ten hag. Yes, we concede goals but I think once we cut those silly errors, we will not concede as many.
 
romufc said:
Clearly you dont... again I will say it..

being tactically flexible in games for 10 minutes is NOT the same as losing 2 games and throwing all your principles out the window, which is what Ten Hag did to get results.

I get it you dont like the manager but wanting someone for short terms results and no long term plan is not what is needed at United right now.
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Yeah, I have yet to be convinced he is the right guy. Man Utd needing a long term plan and Amorim not being the guy can/could both be true. This doesn't mean for the sake of some sort of pride I hope he fails, I hope he succeeds and proves me wrong.

I agree we need a long term plan, but short term results still matter too for a magnitude of reasons....twitter not one of them.
 
TheRedDevil'sAdvocate said:
Didn't know that, i believe it makes the point more clear. There's a reason why only when Mourinho, Pep and Klopp first arrived here, the consensus was that they will certainly compete by creating dominant sides on the pitch. We don't have that choice available to us, when we were used to being envied for not having to deal with the issue for 25 years. The worst thing about it is that United - as an organization - have been failing to rise to the challenge of being a "normal" club for a long time. How much time should the gaffer be given? What if his style isn't it? How much control should he have over the first team? And we don't understand that if we (the club) don't know the answers to these questions, the problem will never go away... unless we stumble upon the next SAF, Klopp, Pep, Mou etc. It's not about being Amorim in or out. He may not be the answer, but the club seems to be a black hole for managers and players.
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This isn't because of the managers.
 
astracrazy said:
Yeah, I have yet to be convinced he is the right guy. Man Utd needing a long term plan and Amorim not being the guy can/could both be true. This doesn't mean for the sake of some sort of pride I hope he fails, I hope he succeeds and proves me wrong.

I agree we need a long term plan, but short term results still matter too for a magnitude of reasons....twitter not one of them.
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There is no way of knowing if someone is going to fail or succeed. We just have to see how he does.

Obviously, without results and performances, he is not going to fill anyone with confidence. Short terms results matter but not in the league for us... finishing 14th, 17th or 10th make no difference for us.

However; cleaning up the squad and getting ready for the start of next season is massive.. he has to show in the first 5 games next season that he is the man to take us forward.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
The end result is that people are asked to trust a mode of operation that is largely unprecedented in modern football and that cannot be compared to anything.
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Well, yes. But United's situation actually is - if not unprecedented (Liverpool before Klopp is not too far off as an analogy) - then certainly unusual and clearly not comparable to most big clubs at the moment.

(This as a general remark - it really has nothing to do with Amorim as such.)
 
romufc said:
There is a difference though changing tactics when you are losing in a game to what Ole, Ten Hag and Jose did... they never went with what they wanted...

Ten Hag lost 2/3 opening games and decided to never play his system again for 2 season.

Ole went defensive and he also said on the overlap.. Manutd cannot play like that... went attacking and got battered in a few games and reverted to type.

At least Amorim, even though we lost games is sticking to his principles, which gives the players nowhere to hide.
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I have read the Ten Hag thing multiple times on here and I think it nonsense, what would we call last seasons tactics if not his, they certainly were not designed around the strengths of his players.

Lost his first few then for half a season played a compact midfield and got the best out of Casemiro and Rashford which dragged him to good results. Then moved away from that compact midfield for a season and half to play his style and got routinely gumped by all comers, and then a few weeks before the end of the season decided to play a sensible set up and got an FA Cup out of it, only to go back to his silly no midfield system and get predictably sacked.

Principles and tactics are not the same thing, a managers principles should be applicable across a range of systems.
 
Gets a direct question about Gyokeres at the presser. Immediately talks about how he wants to help "Ghashmoosh" become better.
 
Bobski said:
I have read the Ten Hag thing multiple times on here and I think it nonsense, what would we call last seasons tactics if not his, they certainly were not designed around the strengths of his players.

Lost his first few then for half a season played a compact midfield and got the best out of Casemiro and Rashford which dragged him to good results. Then moved away from that compact midfield for a season and half to play his style and got routinely gumped by all comers, and then a few weeks before the end of the season decided to play a sensible set up and got an FA Cup out of it, only to go back to his silly no midfield system and get predictably sacked.

Principles and tactics are not the same thing, a managers principles should be applicable across a range of systems.
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Good summary of Ten Hag‘s time here. It is true he tried to change gears in the second and again in the third season.

Second season was derailed by injuries and third season the players struggled to get results playing the new system.

I‘m wondering how much of the tactic changes were Ten Hag vs the technical director/Berrada etc.

While we suffered the beginning of the season, we are suffering worse now. Hopefully seeing sticking to a new system through will be worth it.
 
romufc said:
Thats fine, I respect your opinion.

In my opinion when watching the games, I feel we have improved defensively, where I used to watch teams pass our midfield like its not there creating chance after chance, shot after shot.

Watching us in a mid block, I am alot more comfortable watching than under Ten hag. Yes, we concede goals but I think once we cut those silly errors, we will not concede as many.
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The mistakes are the same mistakes that we made under the previous regimes.

romufc said:
There is no way of knowing if someone is going to fail or succeed. We just have to see how he does.

Obviously, without results and performances, he is not going to fill anyone with confidence. Short terms results matter but not in the league for us... finishing 14th, 17th or 10th make no difference for us.

However; cleaning up the squad and getting ready for the start of next season is massive.. he has to show in the first 5 games next season that he is the man to take us forward.
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Every place in the league is worth 3 million quid, therefore finishing higher up the league makes a difference to our PSR and recruitment
 
Gavinb33 said:
The mistakes are the same mistakes that we made under the previous regimes.



Every place in the league is worth 3 million quid, therefore finishing higher up the league makes a difference to our PSR and recruitment
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True, although 3m for each spot moved up would still be peanuts when compared to what is needed to buy new players. The best option would be to sell Rashford, Sancho, and Hojlund so we can (in addition to the striker and 10, for which we allegedly already have funds available) buy all the other players needed.
 
astracrazy said:
Is that not what he ends up doing though? He abandons his tactics and principles towards the end of games when we need a result, so that's exactly what you describe. I can't imagine Maguire up front it part of his long term tactical plan.
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Sending a cb up front is not abandoning a plan, but taking more risk. BTW Maguire does brilliantly at it.
 
romufc said:
Exactly. We wanted it but they cannot stomach it.... its the way of modern fans though... will moan about everything and become hindsight kings.
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Can you imagine what they would have been like in the 70's and 80's when we were mostly crap and the scousers were winning everything!
 
Wolfbot said:
I don't know how you can look at our results and performances over half a season and think that's immaterial to any assessment of the job he's doing?

I'm not of the belief that everybody essentially agreed to write off either. I think everybody in the world accepts that it wasn't going to be plain sailing, but I don't think most would have expected us to be 3 points away from 17th.

I can fully understand the claims of simply being about laying foundations for next season, but that being the case, the foundations look very shoddy.

We're a little bit better at keeping the ball (although unfortunately this hasn't often equated to progessing up the pitch), and don't concede as many chances, but we are still pretty shocking in attack, don't score many goals and are prone to conceding cheap goals to top it off.

A lot of the players don't seem to play his football at all well, and that's my argument against just starting the new project and going all in despite appearing to be totally unequipped. As an example, if our only real striking option can't hold the ball up well, and struggles get away from defenders to get shots off, what's the point in leaving him up there pretty isolated trying and failing miserably to do what's required in that role? Play differently and support whatever his strengths may be until we get someone capable of actually performing the role the new system requires to a decent standard. I've used Hojlund here but there are others in the same boat. If he was a one off case I'd get it, but that's not the case.

I don't really understand that rational behind playing in a way that has made us worse as a team and blunts the strengths of some of the players who we've seen can be a threat. We've seen barely any improvement while practicing the new system since he came, what's been the point in continuing with it for half a season when we're clearly not ready to do so? It's just made the team (and some individuals) look worse than they probably are, dented confidence and made us more of joke than we already were last season.

That's what I'm a bit annoyed about, I feel as though it should have been pretty apparent after a couple of months that the new ideas weren't going to get us anywhere with the players in the squad at this time, even moreso with injuries to a couple of our better players and having to loan out two of our senior attackers. In my opinion he should have tried something else until we get to a better place in the off-season.

At least we're still in the Europa due to the decision to throw Maguire up front, but I don't really see anything particularly beneficial about how we've chosen to go about the season since he's come in, it doesn't look particularly different to where we were under Ten Hag aside from the fact we concede less chances and pass the ball around for a while before giving it away.
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Strongly disagree on the last part in particular. It's worlds apart from what we saw under EtH...did you forget us conceding 13 goals in two matches vs City and Liverpool? Or conceding 25 shots on goal three games running vs Brentford, Palace and Luton? That was with a team much more experienced than this one too!

I would say there's been much more good than bad in the last 6-8 weeks. We lack quality going forward, that's all. That's not on Amorim though. Let's see how he gets on with a couple of half-decent attacking players.
 
Lentwood said:
Strongly disagree on the last part in particular. It's worlds apart from what we saw under EtH...did you forget us conceding 13 goals in two matches vs City and Liverpool? Or conceding 25 shots on goal three games running vs Brentford, Palace and Luton? That was with a team much more experienced than this one too!

I would say there's been much more good than bad in the last 6-8 weeks. We lack quality going forward, that's all. That's not on Amorim though. Let's see how he gets on with a couple of half-decent attacking players.
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We didn't win a game in 90 minutes in 6 weeks, our last win vs a not relegated side is three months ago
 
Personally I’m a lot more interested in performances than results at this point. Performances are very clearly improved.
 
hellhunter said:
We didn't win a game in 90 minutes in 6 weeks, our last win vs a not relegated side is three months ago
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Yeah we have already discussed this over and over...we have a team of kids and no senior players in attack.

You put even two half-decent attackers in this team (not superstars, just decent) like Gibbs-White and Wood, or Cunha and Larsen, or Eze and Mateta or Watkins and Rogers and we beat Wolves, beat Bournemouth, beat Arsenal at OT, beat Forest, possibly beat City at OT...possibly more.
 
Lentwood said:
Yeah we have already discussed this over and over...we have a team of kids and no senior players in attack.

You put even two half-decent attackers in this team (not superstars, just decent) like Gibbs-White and Wood, or Cunha and Larsen, or Eze and Mateta or Watkins and Rogers and we beat Wolves, beat Bournemouth, beat Arsenal at OT, beat Forest, possibly beat City at OT...possibly more.
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At worst we'd have been in third place tbh, maybe 2nd if Arsenal had dropped a few more points.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
I'm a bit confused about this claim that Mourinho compromised his principles for short-term results at Manchester United. He is a pragmatic manager who tries to obtain short-term results at all his clubs. Those are his principles.
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Good point, isn't every manager's principle to win? They just go about it different ways. Do you think Ruben knows or believes he has a better chance of winning in a 4231 but just chooses not to?

So you're telling me he reaches the Europa League final and he knows playing 4 at the back will give him a better chance to win but he doesn't do it because that's too short term for him and against his "principles"? He would jeopardize his own future (no CL, smaller transfer budget) because principles?

I think he's just coaching what he knows, what he thinks best, like every other coach out there. There's no grand plan on finishing 17th.
 
United are 14th! They've regressed... But the manager should be given time to build his own team before we judge.
 
Lentwood said:
Strongly disagree on the last part in particular. It's worlds apart from what we saw under EtH...did you forget us conceding 13 goals in two matches vs City and Liverpool? Or conceding 25 shots on goal three games running vs Brentford, Palace and Luton? That was with a team much more experienced than this one too!

I would say there's been much more good than bad in the last 6-8 weeks. We lack quality going forward, that's all. That's not on Amorim though. Let's see how he gets on with a couple of half-decent attacking players.
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I didn't forget which is why I said we're conceding less chances, have to give him his due there.

Not getting hammered off good teams and not conceding an outrageous amount of shots isn't something to be particularly proud of though, nor does it mean much when we're still losing a lot of games.

It's a marginal improvement as in my opinion that stuff is just the absolute basics of being an even semi competent side.

When I talk about it not being much different from Ten Hag it's that harder bit of football I'm thinking of, the progression of the ball, creating danger and scoring goals. I still see us giving the ball away cheaply way too often, taking stupid shots that have no chance of going in, slow and ponderous on the ball, poor execution of passes or shots in critical moments. We also definitely don't commit enough players into the box for the amount of crosses we put in.

You may well be right that a lot of that is likely down to individuals and not on him and hopefully we do see a massive improvement if we can get some decent attackers in.
 
Wolfbot said:
I didn't forget which is why I said we're conceding less chances, have to give him his due there.

Not getting hammered off good teams and not conceding an outrageous amount of shots isn't something to be particularly proud of though, nor does it mean much when we're still losing a lot of games.

It's a marginal improvement as in my opinion that stuff is just the absolute basics of being an even semi competent side.

When I talk about it not being much different from Ten Hag it's that harder bit of football I'm thinking of, the progression of the ball, creating danger and scoring goals. I still see us giving the ball away cheaply way too often, taking stupid shots that have no chance of going in, slow and ponderous on the ball, poor execution of passes or shots in critical moments. We also definitely don't commit enough players into the box for the amount of crosses we put in.

You may well be right that a lot of that is likely down to individuals and not on him and hopefully we do see a massive improvement if we can get some decent attackers in.
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I would argue we're seeing a lot of improvement in patterns of play, creating chances, shots, getting into dangerous areas more frequently, and even shots (though on target is another story and actual big chances is something else, too) which has seen a marked improvement in our xG for most matches. You are right about not committing enough players into the box but I think that is very much the lack of athleticism that I believe RA has noted about the squad.
 
There seems to be some confusion of whether he actually said that about Gyökeres or was Romano twisting his response with some other information
 
Posh Red said:
Personally I’m a lot more interested in performances than results at this point. Performances are very clearly improved.
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Yes. The team now performs like Brighton under Potter’s first two years there. Just can’t score. If we find the solution next season, we might see the results improved significantly.
 
Posh Red said:
Personally I’m a lot more interested in performances than results at this point. Performances are very clearly improved.
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Agreed…

Can we all just agree that this season for Amorim is an INCOMPLETE? If we were grading him, it’s absolutely an incomplete.

Have the results been poor? Generally, yes.

Has the formation change affected our results? Yes, and that’s on INEOS and Amorim.

Has the dressing room / mentality changed? We don’t know.

Has the patterns of play improved? Subjective, but I think so, by quite a bit.

Do we have players with the requisite attributes needed to effectively play this formation? No. But in addition, they weren’t playing the 4-2-3-1 all that well either.

Did the club and ETH essentially waste 600m on substandard players? Yes, maybe not every single one, but most. Antony, Onana, Mount, Hojlund, Zirkzee, Licha, Malacia… and don’t cherry pick Licha, I actually like him, but he’s been injured far too often.

We can all agree that we are operating in a gray area here. We still don’t know what Amorim, in a best case scenario, can produce. I actually would like to see what he can do with a very good squad. Remember, the Portuguese league beyond the top 3 or 4 is really really weak. The PL is really tough. Mid table teams are spending 50-100m on players yearly. The revenue allows PL clubs to invest heavily in scouting and the top coaches come here because the pay is 2-3 times the Portuguese and Dutch leagues. It’s the highest in the Big 5 as well.

Generally, I’m a pragmatist. Adjust tactics to win matches, SAF, Ancelotti and Zidane style. Pep, Klopp, hell, even Flick, they are purists. They believe in football played the “right” way. Amorim is a purist is well. When you hire a guy like that, you need to give him time to execute his vision.

I do think that if we are struggling after the first three months of next season, languishing in 14th, you need to sack him. If we are in 6th, 7th, you need to stick with him.
 
DSG said:
Agreed…

Can we all just agree that this season for Amorim is an INCOMPLETE? If we were grading him, it’s absolutely an incomplete.

Have the results been poor? Generally, yes.

Has the formation change affected our results? Yes, and that’s on INEOS and Amorim.

Has the dressing room / mentality changed? We don’t know.

Has the patterns of play improved? Subjective, but I think so, by quite a bit.

Do we have players with the requisite attributes needed to effectively play this formation? No. But in addition, they weren’t playing the 4-2-3-1 all that well either.

Did the club and ETH essentially waste 600m on substandard players? Yes, maybe not every single one, but most. Antony, Onana, Mount, Hojlund, Zirkzee, Licha, Malacia… and don’t cherry pick Licha, I actually like him, but he’s been injured far too often.

We can all agree that we are operating in a gray area here. We still don’t know what Amorim, in a best case scenario, can produce. I actually would like to see what he can do with a very good squad. Remember, the Portuguese league beyond the top 3 or 4 is really really weak. The PL is really tough. Mid table teams are spending 50-100m on players yearly. The revenue allows PL clubs to invest heavily in scouting and the top coaches come here because the pay is 2-3 times the Portuguese and Dutch leagues. It’s the highest in the Big 5 as well.

Generally, I’m a pragmatist. Adjust tactics to win matches, SAF, Ancelotti and Zidane style. Pep, Klopp, hell, even Flick, they are purists. They believe in football played the “right” way. Amorim is a purist is well. When you hire a guy like that, you need to give him time to execute his vision.

I do think that if we are struggling after the first three months of next season, languishing in 14th, you need to sack him. If we are in 6th, 7th, you need to stick with him.
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Yeah he needs to be close to the European places by the second international break or he will be in trouble and that's coming from someone who backs him
 
hellhunter said:
Remember how we laughed about Klopp signing Caulker (?) and using him as a battering ram CF?
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Oh yes. Plenty of things we used to laugh about at other managers for doing, but now in this thread, some are begging for just for the small hope it might make Amorim successful.
 
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