It's not baffling when you see that this current shit team isn't suited for it. I have no fecking idea about the part in bold.The point is this team struggled badly in the system since Solkjaers demise. Its never been remotely consistently good enough even up to ETH sacking since. Hence the desire to ditch 3-4-3 so quickly is quite baffling. Up there with moaning about being having self autonomy in a wilderness and desiring to be a decade plusSlave again back in Egypt......
I have no doub he's given carte blanche. It's the only sensible explanation.A manager can't come in and turn a bag of shite into a decent team overnight. That's why Amorim is getting a bye and more time.
But I give you David Moyes at Everton.
and I just read this
Since Pereira’s appointment on 19 December, Wolves sit eighth in a Premier League table behind the current top six and Crystal Palace. And Sunday’s 4-2 victory over Tottenham moved them 14 points clear of the relegation zone with just six games left to play. Bear in mind that he took over a team that was 19th in the Premier League with nine points from 16 games and five points behind Leicester City.
It seems that a manager who does a bit of reorganzation, plays to this players strengths , gives them a bit of confidence can turn a team around. Unless you are called Amorim and then you don't try this approach, but continue with your approach that everyone and his dog says won't work with the players he has.
If SJR has told him this approach is fine, which the above video says he has, then good for Rubin, carry on if that's your mandate.
In theory it is to start implementing the system as soon as possible, trading immediate results for speeding up the process, and not wasting time on a temporary strategy. However, people have also defended the results by claiming that he doesn't have enough time to train the players, due to how often United play. If that's true then it's unclear how useful it is to start in less-than-ideal conditions.What was the point in appointing Amorim if there wasn't an expectation that things would improve ?
Meaning that the reason Moyes and Pereira have managed to turn around Wolves and Everton is because of their experience in multiple different situations at different clubs. Relegation battling and otherwise.That is very inaccurate.
A squad as poor as ours will not help any manager or coach prove their acumen to be good enough or not, on a consistent basis.
And how do you describe ‘different situations’?
I think he has managed to get decent results against top managers in certain situations.
If he was an unsexy British manager, we'd all be calling for his head.
Less points than Hodgson at his season at Liverpool
You will recruit wingbacks and No 10s who are not great fit for a 4231. CBs, CMs, strikers are less affected.
Few teams play wingbacks hence there are very few of them. It is plain statistics that the 4231 player pool is the biggest. Of course we then go down the 3421 path for which I have never heard a solid explanation other than it worked for Amorim at Sporting and that we have to do this because ETH couldn't get 4231 to work. Bad bad risk reward.
Hodgson didn’t have Suarez, he was signed by Dalglish, who replaced him on an interim basis.Bluh-deh furriners ar tooo sex-eh
Hodgson had Gerrard in midfield and Luis Suarez up front.
Who the hell do we have? Bruno, maybe, a past it Case and Hojlund.
Keep things in perspective rather than torture ourselves with such comparisons.
A manager can't come in and turn a bag of shite into a decent team overnight. That's why Amorim is getting a bye and more time.
But I give you David Moyes at Everton.
and I just read this
Since Pereira’s appointment on 19 December, Wolves sit eighth in a Premier League table behind the current top six and Crystal Palace. And Sunday’s 4-2 victory over Tottenham moved them 14 points clear of the relegation zone with just six games left to play. Bear in mind that he took over a team that was 19th in the Premier League with nine points from 16 games and five points behind Leicester City.
It seems that a manager who does a bit of reorganzation, plays to this players strengths , gives them a bit of confidence can turn a team around. Unless you are called Amorim and then you don't try this approach, but continue with your approach that everyone and his dog says won't work with the players he has.
If SJR has told him this approach is fine, which the above video says he has, then good for Rubin, carry on if that's your mandate.
Ask that to fans moaning tha the manager 'wont change his formation to suit the players". Players who struggled for an entire season in the formation they were all bought to play in and were used to operating in.....
A manager can't come in and turn a bag of shite into a decent team overnight. That's why Amorim is getting a bye and more time.
But I give you David Moyes at Everton.
and I just read this
Since Pereira’s appointment on 19 December, Wolves sit eighth in a Premier League table behind the current top six and Crystal Palace. And Sunday’s 4-2 victory over Tottenham moved them 14 points clear of the relegation zone with just six games left to play. Bear in mind that he took over a team that was 19th in the Premier League with nine points from 16 games and five points behind Leicester City.
It seems that a manager who does a bit of reorganzation, plays to this players strengths , gives them a bit of confidence can turn a team around. Unless you are called Amorim and then you don't try this approach, but continue with your approach that everyone and his dog says won't work with the players he has.
If SJR has told him this approach is fine, which the above video says he has, then good for Rubin, carry on if that's your mandate.
Meaning that the reason Moyes and Pereira have managed to turn around Wolves and Everton is because of their experience in multiple different situations at different clubs. Relegation battling and otherwise.
It's a fairly simple analogy to get. A number of fans are acting like it's better to return to slavery on a brutal plantation "cause they fed better". Rather than retain self autonomy on the journey to true freedom at the first sight of hunger pangs from inconsistent food supply. ....It's not baffling when you see that this current shit team isn't suited for it. I have no fecking idea about the part in bold.
Honestly there is more to it than just bring given "Carte Blanche*There is being bad and there is being what we currently are. What was the point in appointing Amorim if there wasn't an expectation that things would improve ?
I have no doub he's given carte blanche. It's the only sensible explanation.
We are largely on the same page, then. I agree this squad is largely suited to back 4 shapes. However, I feel the greatest thing overlooked about this squad is the knowledge gap they are being forced to over come. 95% of them had NEVER operated in back 3 systems at any level. Bar Maguire, Shaw, Mount, Amad and Hoijlund (I believe) when the switch to a back 3 strategem occurred. Not enough slack is being cut to these players that they are literally learning the formation on the job! Yet at the same time having to try and learn front foot, posession control and pressing football fron the manager. Yet this is ocuuring with minimal training time in mid season, yet the side already was struggling with confidence and mentality before it all began! So it tends to be surspring so many fans are ultra focused on results and position in the table. Rather than whether there has been signigcany progress amongst these players in understanding of playing position, team shape, plus how the coach prefers them to operate on and off the ball as a unit.Fair enough but our current struggles under Amorim aren't solely down to switching formation. And our struggles under Tan Hag for 18 months weren't due to playing 4231 either it was primarily due to Ten Hag employing a brand of football that made little or no sense and stubbornly sticking with it. We did fine in 22/23 with 4231 using more sensible tactics.
I'd agree that this squad is more suited to 4231/433 but I think most of our struggles this season can be traced back to a lack of quality training under Ten Hag, virtually no midfield/defensive structure being implemented for a long period (something Amorim has improved), key personnel missing and a factor that gets overlooked I feel. This squad virtually to a man has or was rock bottom in terms of confidence. Half of them look much worse players than they are right now.
The comparison is there as this is probably the worst a top 6 manager has ever performed. Until now.Bluh-deh furriners ar tooo sex-eh
Hodgson had Gerrard in midfield and Luis Suarez up front.
Who the hell do we have? Bruno, maybe, a past it Case and Hojlund.
Keep things in perspective rather than torture ourselves with such comparisons.
The comparison is there as this is probably the worst a top 6 manager has ever performed. Until now.
I'm all for long term thinking but a short term strategy alongside that wouldn't have been a bad thing.It's a fairly simple analogy to get. A number of fans are acting like it's better to return to slavery on a brutal plantation "cause they fed better". Rather than retain self autonomy on the journey to true freedom at the first sight of hunger pangs from inconsistent food supply. ....
Honestly there is more to it than just bring given "Carte Blanche*
The entire point of appointing him was to improve the long term footballing health of the team. Not a temporary short in the arm fix like adrenaline. Which keeping a Van Nistelrooy till the summer running the status who would have been.
That is why the entire footballing direction, from tactics to style was uprooted in mid season. An incredible risk to take in mid season. I'm hence struggling to believe anyone who now expresses surprise at significant improvement proving difficult since, yet the uprooting was done with significant weakining rather than reinforcing of the already problematic squad in January after it was done.
We have looked like we struggle to progress the ball from the back for at least 2 seasons and it has nothing to do with the formationThe Henry analysis on MNF was a bit damming on the drawbacks of the current formation. We do look like we have struggled to progress the ball out from the back because instead of a CM dropping in and collecting the ball deep, it's now a defender who is worse on the ball. Our wingbacks also sit in quite deep, so the players ahead of the ball are outnumbered. As Henry pointed out it's partly as the wide CBs are not really splitting at coming out wide.
Also it feels like back 5 is generally quite flat and move the ball slowly across themsel. Rarely do we see the CBs breaking the line (eg Sheff Utd underlapping CBs a few seasons back) or wingbacks starting high.
I'm all for long term thinking but a short term strategy alongside that wouldn't have been a bad thing.
This. Talk of sacking off matches such as Newcastle on Sunday by many posters and ‘it not mattering’. The club can say it’s planning for the future and it will take time etc. but meanwhile supporters are expected to be patient when many of the recent performances point to us being in this position (if not worse) this time next year.No European football of any kind will cost us a shit load of money which is going to ultimately impact our plans in the medium term at the very least.
The points difference between us and 8th (and potential qualification to Europa League) isn't that massive. A few tweaks to this formation might have seen us pick up a couple more wins and at the very least, give us something (however small) to fight for between now and the end of the season.
And I know I keep banging on about this but fans were expected to keep going to matches and paying full price even though the club has essentially decided that the season can just become an experiment.
If I decided to sack a few home games this season, I would have had my season ticket taken off me for next season. Yet, the club have been seemingly happy to do this since January. The whole thing is shite.
There's also the fact that I've had friends lose their jobs so the club can save 50k a year yet the team finishing 15th will see us lose out on 10 million on prize money compared to whoever finishes in 10th ffs.This. Talk of sacking off matches such as Newcastle on Sunday by many posters and ‘it not mattering’. The club can say it’s planning for the future and it will take time etc. but meanwhile supporters are expected to be patient when many of the recent performances point to us being in this position (if not worse) this time next year.
I was at the game to the very end on Sunday and through sheer bloody mindedness joined in with the Amorim song - but what I had seen unfold in that second half (Drogu was shocking when he came on) made me not necessarily believe the sentiment if Drogu is indicative of the type of player Amorim has in mind as part of his rebuild.
Apparently he now has a worse point tally than Hodgson at Liverpool.
I'm starting to worry that he may have bitten off more than he can chew here. But then, what getable manager would succeed in the current setup. Just depressing as shite. Reckon people will turn if we get knocked out of Europa.
Yes but clearly there is a need for a huge overhaul of players for this to work so whether it's implemented now with this current squad or later with new players, I don't think any process has been sped up.In theory it is to start implementing the system as soon as possible, trading immediate results for speeding up the process, and not wasting time on a temporary strategy. However, people have also defended the results by claiming that he doesn't have enough time to train the players, due to how often United play. If that's true then it's unclear how useful it is to start in less-than-ideal conditions.
From the get go it was fairly for me and many others to see that this system wasn't gonna work on a consistent basis. I don't think it's a controversial take, it requires way too much from a sorry set of players.It's a fairly simple analogy to get. A number of fans are acting like it's better to return to slavery on a brutal plantation "cause they fed better". Rather than retain self autonomy on the journey to true freedom at the first sight of hunger pangs from inconsistent food supply. ....
It allows the players who are staying, like Bruno, Yoro, Amad etc. to get up to speed with it and hopefully allow more seamless transition with the players that are added.Yes but clearly there is a need for a huge overhaul of players for this to work so whether it's implemented now with this current squad or later with new players, I don't think any process has been sped up.
I hope you're right tbh. I just worry about Ineos spearheading just a difficult transition. It's pure bias from me but I don't think at any point, I will be alright watching a back 3. It feels too unnaturalIt allows the players who are staying, like Bruno, Yoro, Amad etc. to get up to speed with it and hopefully allow more seamless transition with the players that are added.
The Henry analysis on MNF was a bit damming on the drawbacks of the current formation. We do look like we have struggled to progress the ball out from the back because instead of a CM dropping in and collecting the ball deep, it's now a defender who is worse on the ball. Our wingbacks also sit in quite deep, so the players ahead of the ball are outnumbered. As Henry pointed out it's partly as the wide CBs are not really splitting at coming out wide.
Also it feels like back 5 is generally quite flat and move the ball slowly across themsel. Rarely do we see the CBs breaking the line (eg Sheff Utd underlapping CBs a few seasons back) or wingbacks starting high.
I wonder how much Amorim's vision has been shaped by coaching in a much slower league.
The point is that very few teams play with fullbacks hence the selection is limited. I wanted Ait-Nouri since he can also play LB. Frimpong can probably not play RB. Wingback is a specialist position for 343.But can you name any of these players who are specifically wingbacks and can't play as a fullback or winger?
Did Henry say that this is only short term pain that we must endure and that Amorim will surely turn this around?That Henry and Carragher analysis summed up exactly what I was thinking. I also don't understand why Zirkzee was in the right back area in the lead up to their first goal. Too many things do not make sense. I can actually see the merits of playing a system such as this and having a player play out from the back and stepping into midfield allows the team to move up as a whole. But, I'm just not seeing that.
The wingbacks sit too way too deep and everyone just gets pulled back. It puts us at too many disadvantages because we then have more area to cover before we get to the opposition's box, which is a disadvantage for us due to our lack of speed, mobility, and stamina. Sitting deep plays to our weaknesses. We also spend way too much time with the centre backs and the keeper having the ball. These are generally our worst players on the ball. Give it to the talented ones quicker! As a fan, that second half has damaged my opinion of Amorim and of what he thinks he is trying to do.
Also, I'm not a fan of sacking off games at all. Morally, it's a really stupid thing to do when you have a big game coming up straight after that. This whole notion of this season being an experiment doesn't sit right with me. It also raises the expectations for next season, which I'm just struggling to see right now.
A manager can't come in and turn a bag of shite into a decent team overnight. That's why Amorim is getting a bye and more time.
But I give you David Moyes at Everton.
and I just read this
Since Pereira’s appointment on 19 December, Wolves sit eighth in a Premier League table behind the current top six and Crystal Palace. And Sunday’s 4-2 victory over Tottenham moved them 14 points clear of the relegation zone with just six games left to play. Bear in mind that he took over a team that was 19th in the Premier League with nine points from 16 games and five points behind Leicester City.
It seems that a manager who does a bit of reorganzation, plays to this players strengths , gives them a bit of confidence can turn a team around. Unless you are called Amorim and then you don't try this approach, but continue with your approach that everyone and his dog says won't work with the players he has.
If SJR has told him this approach is fine, which the above video says he has, then good for Rubin, carry on if that's your mandate.
I get that there are a lot of mitigating circumstances for Amorim. But other than the bad situation he’s in, what is he actively doing, other than his interviews and press conferences, that instils you with confidence?
That's patently untrue, we did beat Copenhagen!We're still unbeaten in Europe. Prior to Amorim coming in we hadn't won a match in Europe in nearly 2 years or something ridiculous.
Basically that's all we have to hang our hat on at the moment.
Yea i concur.No, we are saying that United needs a long term reset and fix, not someone to "fix it a little" and "play to players strengths".
You are looking at short term meaningless results and getting angry that you can't get dopamine hits from sharing "yey we won" on social media.
Nothing is new. Amorim wants a style and we see glimpses of it.
Half of our squad is not good enough. Half of the other half are inconsistent.
We need a proper window and good preseason.
It's astonishing how some posters are desperate for a "yes man" in charge who will "fix it a little".
To build a new house, you burn the old one down.
And when the pillars of the old house are the likes of Onana, it's super simple to burn.
See I have no problem with that but everything I've read regarding transfers is the budgets going to be tight this summer so the majority of this squad are going to be here next year.No, we are saying that United needs a long term reset and fix, not someone to "fix it a little" and "play to players strengths".
You are looking at short term meaningless results and getting angry that you can't get dopamine hits from sharing "yey we won" on social media.
Nothing is new. Amorim wants a style and we see glimpses of it.
Half of our squad is not good enough. Half of the other half are inconsistent.
We need a proper window and good preseason.
It's astonishing how some posters are desperate for a "yes man" in charge who will "fix it a little".
To build a new house, you burn the old one down.
And when the pillars of the old house are the likes of Onana, it's super simple to burn.
I hope you're right tbh. I just worry about Ineos spearheading just a difficult transition. It's pure bias from me but I don't think at any point, I will be alright watching a back 3. It feels too unnatural
I get that there are a lot of mitigating circumstances for Amorim. But other than the bad situation he’s in, what is he actively doing, other than his interviews and press conferences, that instils you with confidence?
I'm not arsed about winning every week or having kudos on social media, I just want to see a team battling to win football matches. Too often this season, we've looked clueless. Yes, we looked as equally clueless under Ten Hag at times but we sacked him and should have seen some uplift in performances since.No, we are saying that United needs a long term reset and fix, not someone to "fix it a little" and "play to players strengths".
You are looking at short term meaningless results and getting angry that you can't get dopamine hits from sharing "yey we won" on social media.
Nothing is new. Amorim wants a style and we see glimpses of it.
Half of our squad is not good enough. Half of the other half are inconsistent.
We need a proper window and good preseason.
It's astonishing how some posters are desperate for a "yes man" in charge who will "fix it a little".
To build a new house, you burn the old one down.
And when the pillars of the old house are the likes of Onana, it's super simple to burn.
