For context, here's Hodgson's starting line up against United at OT in 2010 (when Berbatov scored a hatrick)Apparently he now has a worse point tally than Hodgson at Liverpool.
I'm starting to worry that he may have bitten off more than he can chew here. But then, what getable manager would succeed in the current setup. Just depressing as shite. Reckon people will turn if we get knocked out of Europa.
You’ve more than answered it. Thanks for that.Happy to answer from my perspective as I do see things I like on the pitch, though I would like to underline that: 1. I still put a lot of weight on what he did at Sporting, with good football, youth development, and drastically rebuilding a failing club, 2. His press conferences and general media persona are a significant factor, doing a good job of keeping his head and not deflecting blame whilst he faces a seemingly endless barrage of shit that is out of his control and 3. Whilst he has not done enough so far in the role to convince he is the man, I'd rather solve one big problem at a time, and recruitment and squad quality in THE main issue with the club.
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So firstly I can see what he's trying to do, and in theory I like it. A more structured and automated attempt to win the possession battle in defence and midfield, that then leads to releasing attacking players into space and high xg chances where they can express themselves and be creative. There's an extra defender, but you're still attacking with 5, even a sixth if one of the CMs pushes up, since the wbs can be both winger and defender.
The process of winning that battle at the back has started to show fruit. On plenty of occasions in most games now you'll see some fairly slick passing to beat the press, which then releases our attackers to run at the oppositions back line. Whilst this rarely results in goals (which I put down to the quality of our attackers), I can easily see how better players capitalise on those kinds of opportunities.
At other times you'll see the ball go directly into the 10 or 9 from defence, bypassing the midfield who've drawn the opposition out of the way, again creating good opportunities. Zirkzee has shown real value over the past couple months in receiving the ball like this, turning and setting up good opportunities. But again, a lack of quality elsewhere stops this being possible, and I can easily see how players with better hold up player make this a more consistent process.
I also like just having proper width again. I get a sad little buzz every time that switch is on to the wb who is free high up on the wing. Unfortunately its normally Dalot who is out there, and the opposition don't fear him and would rather cover Dorgu on the other side. Again, better wb options does more for us there.
So yeah tactically I'm up for it and can see it working. Sit back and counter was fun at times under Ole, but wasn't enough in the big games that required more tactical nous. I can't do that tortuous Dutch possession football anymore, its so fecking boring. And Ten Hag's suicide ball was just stupid. Its not going to be relentless pressure ala early Liverpool, but whilst that might be fun I don't think its sustainable with the amount of games you have to play these days. Case in point, I don't think its a coincidence that Liverpool finally win a proper league title now that they've calmed things down a bit - the league is too much of a marathon to be constantly pressing and running.
So I'm totally up for trying this Amorim ball. It needs better quality, but I honestly cannot think of a system that wouldn't require us to drastically rebuild anyway. I keep seeing people say find something that fits the players, but Im yet to see anyone put a convincing argument across about what that would be and how that would get us top 4 with the players we have.
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So that's the structure, and I think you can see improvement in certain players as well. De Ligt is really starting to grow into the player I expected him to be, and I think he's going to flourish as the CCB over the next few years. Maguire as a stand in also looking better than he has in a long time. Casemiro looks reborn, which is a real credit to Amorim, not just in finding a tactical fit for him when he looked so washed, but also how he seems to have bought out a leader in him when I thought he'd checked out towards the end of Ten Hag's time. Zirkzee, who I had frankly written off, is now mourned by many after that latest injury, which tells you how well he's playing even though he isn't putting up the numbers. There's a lesson in the need to actually watch the games and not just look at the stats.
I think he's doing a great job with the kids as well. Heaven, Yoro, Dorgu all have a lot of pressure on them, often thrust in without the freedom to be eased in as kids should. But they're performing by and large. Dorgu is potentially the weakest of the three, but even then I think the criticism of him has been harsh, and he's had more good games than bad. Overall he's shielding these kids and developing them at the same time which is what we need him to do.
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To pre-empt some the counter points - here's where I think he could do better. 1. Surely there's a pacey winger in the academy we can bring in to the run in behind at the end of games. Maybe I'm wrong, but there's too much pressure on Garnacho to be the only runner in the team 2. Could he have done more to help Hojlund improve? Told him to stop wrestling and just get on the end of crosses - I don't know.
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So to summarise, I see what he's trying to do, I see evidence of it starting to materialise, I see really positive attributes in his management, and I think we can be patient with him whilst we sort out squad quality, that would need to be done regardless if he stays or not.
Hope that answers your question.
A very fair summaryYou’ve more than answered it. Thanks for that.
Would it be a fair summary to say that he has achieved quite a bit tactically, but that concerns mostly the defense as the offense still struggles heavily to capitalise on improvements in the build up play?
I get that there are a lot of mitigating circumstances for Amorim. But other than the bad situation he’s in, what is he actively doing, other than his interviews and press conferences, that instils you with confidence?
Hodgson was sacked before Suárez was signed.Bluh-deh furriners ar tooo sex-eh
Hodgson had Gerrard in midfield and Luis Suarez up front.
Who the hell do we have? Bruno, maybe, a past it Case and Hojlund.
Keep things in perspective rather than torture ourselves with such comparisons.
For context, here's Hodgson's starting line up against United at OT in 2010 (when Berbatov scored a hatrick)
Reina
G. Johnson, Skrtel, Carragher, Konchesky
J. Cole, Meireles, Poulsen, Maxi
Gerrard
Torres
For me its a real concern. he seems a nice guy but lacks experience to cope with situation at United. His system worked in a weak league, admittedly at a club that had struggled but hardly a minnow. A bit like ETH, his 'system' doesnt translate well to PL. At least in the case of Amorim its fairly clear what he is trying to do, but he lacks the players, Even then I fear its a very defensive system and may get us more competitive but unlikely to challenge seriously, by which point a squad will need more work for the next guy. Exactly what we were told would not happen.Nothing, he more or less admitted in the Rio interview that he was out of ideas. I think I lost confidence in his capabilities after that segment. He's very one dimensional and lacks versatility. It's not just the formation but his interpretation of how it's adopted which is the problem for me.
This is why I keep comparing his use of the system with Alonso's, one has far much more nuance in and out of possession due to their philosophy but fans will ignorantly say it's because of the players.
Amorim will undoubtedly fail in his tenure at United, just like Dorgu, newer players will be purchased but the improvement will be so minimal that it's barely noticeable.
Next season he will need to finish in the top four, he'll only have one year left as a triggered option, at this point Jim would be an absolute lunatic to activate the further year in his contract.
It's whatever you want it to be but your thinking is the same as mine - that Liverpool team was mediocre at best, yet we are still doing worse than that team under Amorim.I'm not sure what context you're trying to provide here? That looks like a pretty horrible line up given how far Torres had fallen off at that point. That midfield is worse than what we have currently.
Hit the nail on the head. The bold statement is actually the worst thing, because to me we were never favorites against top six under EtH, but still a better team than the bottom half ones. Now, we arent that against any team.He come in as a fresh breath of air. Loved listening to him talk and explain things. Had high hopes that he is going to be the one to bring us back to the top. But based on what he has shown so far all the hope is gone and major doubts have crept in. I am not a believer in the idea that a manager can only show improvement by getting better players. He has to improve what has available and show that he deserves the trust and the Benjamins. Unfortunately, we have seen none of it under him. In fact, the expectations are so low that we go in as underdogs even against the bottom table teams. Simply not good enough. Big decision coming up for the management team in the summer.
I'd think more of this board if they just sacked him at the end of the season rather than letting him limp along to an inevitable sacking in November or whatever. It's not going to work. 3-4 signings, if we can even afford them, are not going to turn this around. It was a near impossible job, a totally poisoned chalice, and he's not up to it.He come in as a fresh breath of air. Loved listening to him talk and explain things. Had high hopes that he is going to be the one to bring us back to the top. But based on what he has shown so far all the hope is gone and major doubts have crept in. I am not a believer in the idea that a manager can only show improvement by getting better players. He has to improve what has available and show that he deserves the trust and the Benjamins. Unfortunately, we have seen none of it under him. In fact, the expectations are so low that we go in as underdogs even against the bottom table teams. Simply not good enough. Big decision coming up for the management team in the summer.
Who gives a shit what he looks like? Guardiola looks like a scruffy divorced dad. Arteta looks like a hyperactive weasel. Slot looks like an angry bloated thumb.Hit the nail on the head. The bold statement is actually the worst thing, because to me we were never favorites against top six under EtH, but still a better team than the bottom half ones. Now, we arent that against any team.
Truth be told, he actuallty looks quite small and tender squatting there at the side line. Almost looking a bit lost. That is not a good sign.
Hit the nail on the head. The bold statement is actually the worst thing, because to me we were never favorites against top six under EtH, but still a better team than the bottom half ones. Now, we arent that against any team.
Truth be told, he actuallty looks quite small and tender squatting there at the side line. Almost looking a bit lost. That is not a good sign.
I'd think more of this board if they just sacked him at the end of the season rather than letting him limp along to an inevitable sacking in November or whatever. It's not going to work. 3-4 signings, if we can even afford them, are not going to turn this around. It was a near impossible job, a totally poisoned chalice, and he's not up to it.
I'm not arsed about winning every week or having kudos on social media, I just want to see a team battling to win football matches. Too often this season, we've looked clueless. Yes, we looked as equally clueless under Ten Hag at times but we sacked him and should have seen some uplift in performances since.
We've tossed away more than half a season to give the benefit of the doubt to an inexperienced manager.
If we don't qualify for Europe, we'll be impacted by a huge drop in revenue and potential prize money. This, in turn, will impact on who we can bring in over the summer which will mean some of the current bozos will remain at the club anyway.
He's proven he can adapt with some battling performances at Liverpool, Arsenal and city. I just wanted to see that more often.
Watching the likes of Brighton, Bournemouth, Forest, Palace, Newcastle completely outplay us at home has been depressing. .
I'm not sure what anyone is getting from us getting the piss taken out of us by those teams.
Again, I'm also not convinced that there isn't a squad/formation within the current set up to maybe get us an extra 10 or so points. We picked one point from two away matches at Wolves and Ipswich ffs.
The has been quite a shift recently in both the media and pundits highlighting how badly he is doing. His system is getting pulled apart as much as it does on the pitch.
Safe to say he will never achieve much in the PL. I don’t see 3 or 4 players making much of a difference when it’s so easy to play against.
The downward spiral of United will continue with him in charge. No way he turns this around because no one is buying this system.
Meh at this point seems a dream. Me personally I'm just worried about him taking this form into next year. Like it or lump it next year he's going to have to use a lot of these players considering the penny pinching Ineos have been doing so funds will be limited and I wish this was hyperbole but we're on relegation form atm.It’s interesting because I completely understand the outrage with results (it’s embarassing ), but at the same time I’m not sure what people expect to see that’s vastly different? Do people think 4231 counterball would have us vastly higher in the table? Does a change in formation suddenly mean we aren’t relying on Garnacho/Hojlund/Zirkzee for attacking production and sharp final third play? Will us playing a different system mean Ugarte and Casemiro will suddenly become anything close to a Newcastle level of athleticism, or technicians like Liverpools midfield?
I don’t think Amorim has done much of anything notable and I’m not sure if he is or isn’t the man to bring us back into contention. He says a lot of the right things and seems to have a pretty clear view of the situation (as opposed to the pure delusion of our last manager). But at a certain point there can't just be a shrugging of the shoulders when it's an endless stream of shit results. At the same time, I genuinely think the majority of our fanbase seems to not understand just how poor the squad is, specifically in midfield/attack. We are a bottom tier team in terms of athleticism, bottom tier in terms of technicality, and absolute rock bottom in terms of attacking sharpness/thrust. You can give any manager in the world those circumstances and the results/performances won't be much better than "meh" and thats best case scenario.
Serious question what as been good about it? We've been knocked out of the FA cup and held Arsenal and the worst City side (results wise) of probably the last decade to a draw. The football is still turgid, the players look lost, nobody is improving I don't see the good work at all.Well, most of our players are game raisers. They can't be bothered when the world isn't watching.
Honestly, against Newcastle we gifted 3 goals. Obviously Amorim wanted to take off early players for Lyon or give them complete rest. Unfortunately with Eriksen we played with 10 on the pitch.
If the result stayed 1-1 ot even 2-1, the picture until the end of the game would have been different. That Mazraoui mistake killed the team spirit.
Shit happens. One bad half full of individual mistakes can't undo the last 2 months of good work.
It's so painfully obvious that players are the problem, not the manager....
It's whatever you want it to be but your thinking is the same as mine - that Liverpool team was mediocre at best, yet we are still doing worse than that team under Amorim.
Are you joking? We regularly got taken apart by teams in the bottom half under Ten Hag. Palace, Bournemouth...even Championship Coventry had a good go for 45 minutes.Hit the nail on the head. The bold statement is actually the worst thing, because to me we were never favorites against top six under EtH, but still a better team than the bottom half ones. Now, we arent that against any team.
Truth be told, he actuallty looks quite small and tender squatting there at the side line. Almost looking a bit lost. That is not a good sign.
Meaning that the reason Moyes and Pereira have managed to turn around Wolves and Everton is because of their experience in multiple different situations at different clubs. Relegation battling and otherwise.
I'll take a stab.Serious question what as been good about it? We've been knocked out of the FA cup and held Arsenal and the worst City side (results wise) of probably the last decade to a draw. The football is still turgid, the players look lost, nobody is improving I don't see the good work at all.
You’d think by now some fans would’ve learnt to not have blind confidence for a manager.
I’m not saying sack him but blindly trusting that a manager is the answer when there’s no evidence of it on the pitch is just foolish at this stage.
I think everyone can admit he probably does need more time and was dealt a bad hand. That is all true but in the things he can control such as our performance on the pitch, it has been dreadful if we’re being honest.
By now we should be seeing things in how we play that give us confidence going into next season. I see nothing other than, if we had better players they would look better and that’s about it. The defence doesn’t have a clue and look less comfortable in a 3 than they did with 2.
Passing out from the back is slightly better than under ETH but still far away from other good sides. He plays a flat back 3 and hardly seeks to create the extra man advantage in midfield. It’s a horrible use of having an extra defender if they don’t take up a faux midfield role at times. The defenders just pass between themselves creating zero danger.
What has really improved since he’s been here? Do we press any better maybe but it’s still pretty crap. Attack is turgid and Garnacho and Hojlund have actually regressed under him.
The worst thing is he’s so stubborn and set in his ways with his system that we’ll never know if the team could be better with a different setup under him. It’s such a bizarre way of coaching to be married to one system. Even fecking Conte is playing a 433 with Napoli this season.
People might not want to accept it but it is very possible that his genius is limited to the Portuguese league. He wouldn’t be the first manager to be exposed once making the step up. The PL is the strongest it’s ever been with managerial talent.
Nothing, he more or less admitted in the Rio interview that he was out of ideas. I think I lost confidence in his capabilities after that segment. He's very one dimensional and lacks versatility. It's not just the formation but his interpretation of how it's adopted which is the problem for me.
This is why I keep comparing his use of the system with Alonso's, one has far much more nuance in and out of possession due to their philosophy but fans will ignorantly say it's because of the players.
Amorim will undoubtedly fail in his tenure at United, just like Dorgu, newer players will be purchased but the improvement will be so minimal that it's barely noticeable.
Next season he will need to finish in the top four, he'll only have one year left as a triggered option, at this point Jim would be an absolute lunatic to activate the further year in his contract.
I completely understand the paying supporters pain over this. Yet I still dont think the alternative is worth the risk. ETHs reign is literally the best example of why compromise lives things in no man's land. He comprised from day only and long term never found his way back to the road of success once a storm hit.I'm all for long term thinking but a short term strategy alongside that wouldn't have been a bad thing.
No European football of any kind will cost us a shit load of money which is going to ultimately impact our plans in the medium term at the very least.
The points difference between us and 8th (and potential qualification to Europa League) isn't that massive. A few tweaks to this formation might have seen us pick up a couple more wins and at the very least, give us something (however small) to fight for between now and the end of the season.
And I know I keep banging on about this but fans were expected to keep going to matches and paying full price even though the club has essentially decided that the season can just become an experiment.
If I decided to sack a few home games this season, I would have had my season ticket taken off me for next season. Yet, the club have been seemingly happy to do this since January. The whole thing is shite.
We have looked like we struggle to progress the ball from the back for at least 2 seasons and it has nothing to do with the formation
Everyone could see it wasn't going to work on a consistent basis it's true. Especially sans significant January reinforcement. What's baffling though is however, why a number of fans would rather have not bothered at all, yet a number of these same players will be here next season, when neccesarry reinforcements will arrive......
From the get go it was fairly for me and many others to see that this system wasn't gonna work on a consistent basis. I don't think it's a controversial take, it requires way too much from a sorry set of players.
The improvements are so minuscule though and in that same period we lost to Forrest (good team i know), and got knocked out of the cup by Fulham.Jesus that was a long read from Sunday.
Can tell we lost, over 20 pages of the same posters, repeating the same thing over and over again.
Before I start yes Amorim has underperformed.
This team is easily the one of the worst assembled squad in PL history for the money spent, our GK has made 8 errors leading to goals in all competitions since he arrived for a fee of £43.8m, our 72m ST has scored a total of 13 goals in 57 PL games with 7 of those goals coming in 6 games between December & February last year, a 33 Y/O DM who cost 60m who's legs have gone and has been a liability since his 1st season, a 55m CAM who has played a grand total of 486 mins this season & 756 mins last season, an £85m RW who no longer plays for us who is showing his level is Real Betis a EL La Liga side and £48m on a 5ft 9 CB who has had 2 major injuries and a reoccurrence of 1 during his 3 seasons at the club.
This is just ETH signings and these cost a grand total of £363.8m, I haven't even gone into the money Ole wasted on Sancho, Maguire, DVB & AWB.
This is the reason we are where we are signing over priced players, not good enough and have significantly weakened the team year on year.
Yes the Jury is still out on the likes of MDL, Ugarte, Mazraoui & Zirkzee I think they deserve a full season before we judge if they are good enough, I think Yoro & Dorgu have shown glimpses of talent with obvious inconsistencies that come with young players , but are of the physicality required to compete in the PL.
The system is not the issue with this team, our inability to progress the ball through the thirds has been an issue since Ole was in charge, Yoro, De ligt & Mazraoui have shown the ability to break the lines, but our Midfield is not press resistant and unable to take it under pressure and either recycle it or drive forward on the half turn, when we do break the lines our front 3 either over run it or fail to pick someone out with the correct pass, leading to the attack breaking down.
Garnacho & Hojlund have wasted multiple chances in the last week alone, yes Garnacho scored at the weekend but doesn't change my opinion from the eye test of him.
I have seen multiple posts about if Dorgu is the quality we are signing then we are truly sh1t, he should of had an assist against City had Garnacho not messed up that header and had Hojlund not miskicked that sitter against Lyon of where he put it on his stronger foot about 10 yards out, when he does create chances there is no one there to finish them anyway.
The move between Eriksen, Bruno & Zirkzee a top class ST buries that, completely different outlook, when you don't take your chances you won't win many games.
Amorim has limited the number of shots we have conceded since the turn of the year, majority of the goals we concede are from defensive errors or GK howlers, as proved against Newcastle changing Onana didn't stop that, this squad is technically and tactically weak.
Yes results have been poor, but don't tell me you haven't noticed any improvement in performances with better finishing we would of beat Arsenal and City at home, instead we collected 2 points and before anyone says well he hasn't improved them, Arsenal signed Fabregas to replace Jamie O'Hara should they have just stuck with him to see if he improved, sometimes you just can't polish a turd.
This team clearly needs reinforcements no matter who the manager is, or whatever modern style of play they want to implement, he deserves the summer to bring in the players he requires before we can fully judge what he is capable of, people who bang on about Arteta his Arsenal team was crap for 2 1/2 years, no one was saying how great of a manager he was, if he is that good why has he won nothing more than a covid Fa cup? ETH won more.
The improvements are so minuscule though and in that same period we lost to Forrest (good team i know), and got knocked out of the cup by Fulham.
This is the worrying part for me. What if he doesn't get the players how long do we persist with him? Everything coming out around are transfers is the budgets thin, so say he gets 5/6 out and 3/4 in surely that's not enough? The form he's showing with this squad is near relegation level and surely quite a few of them are going to be here next year and the fact we've seen zero improvement from anyone, barring maybe Bruno that's terrifying to me.
On Arteta he was hardly competing against bums Pep's City was a freak of nature. Don't expect Amorim to be competing with Pep or Slot but surely there's a middle ground and at this moment he's competing with RVN Leicester.
The improvements are so minuscule though and in that same period we lost to Forrest (good team i know), and got knocked out of the cup by Fulham.
This is the worrying part for me. What if he doesn't get the players how long do we persist with him? Everything coming out around are transfers is the budgets thin, so say he gets 5/6 out and 3/4 in surely that's not enough? The form he's showing with this squad is near relegation level and surely quite a few of them are going to be here next year and the fact we've seen zero improvement from anyone, barring maybe Bruno that's terrifying to me.
On Arteta he was hardly competing against bums Pep's City was a freak of nature. Don't expect Amorim to be competing with Pep or Slot but surely there's a middle ground and at this moment he's competing with RVN Leicester.
