Just saw on a BBC report, Utd have only led for 218 mins of regular time since he's been in charge.
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
- Thread starter sewey89
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Nik (@Rood), Jamie (@Vault Dweller) and Ed (@That'sHernandez) give their end of season awards out! They celebrate the best players, goals and moments of the season (there were some, honestly) and also give out awards for the worst and most disappointing players/moments of the season.
They then discuss all the latest transfer rumours and get into the potential ins and outs this summer at Old Trafford.
Overall, I think the players has done him dirty. There were a few nice crosses into the box but nobody, there is iterally nobody even near the ball. If Maguire is the striker, he will probably had 1 or 2 chances. I declare Hoijund as the worst transfer ever (Antony is tearing up the Spanish league, he will get some interest in the summer). Hoijund will get no interest, how on earth did our scout think he is good enough??? On defence, we can't keep a clean sheet. You cannot rely of Onana to save the day, he is another fecker who talks big but hasn't nothing to back his big talk. De Gea can single handedly keep United from losing, I haven't seen Onana do it since he was signed. The collective effort is poor, how can Amorim start Lindelof? Isn't he leaving at the end of the season? I am sure United will be improve next season but forget about top 4, we will be lucky not to finish in the bottom half of the table. I like Amorim, I think he is doing the right thing but if next season is a poor one, he has to go.
I don't like your analogy. The fire extinguishers are right there. He's refusing to use them.
And sure, he was hired at the wrong time, and sure the squad doesn't suit him, but c'mon man. Would it have been so bad if we got top half of the table and enjoyed a few wins along the way being pragmatic? Would it really have hurt his summer, or his ability to change things for next season? 70000 people are paying a lot ofl hard earned money to watch this every week or two...
It hasn’t gone very well so far has it. Weren’t we something like 4 points off the top 4 when he came in? I think if we’d given it to Ruud until the summer, kept it tight and played a 4231, it’s possible we’d have found ourselves in the European spots.
But we’d also be starting from scratch in the summer, and all the players would be getting a blank slate to prove themselves, blah blah. We’ve seen it a dozen times, and by the time he’s realised the players are shit it’s another season down the shitter. At least now he knows who he does and doesn’t want going into the summer.
No, I think there’s times he could’ve been more pragmatic and flexible with his system without abandoning it entirely. And I don’t think you can just lose every week and it’s fine - at some point the players lose faith and losing becomes a habit.
I’m not saying he shouldn’t get criticism, just that talk of sacking him is premature.
Did you expect history to stop repeating itself when the guys kicking the ball are the same?
People in this thread are talking like we've not amassed a squad of lazy, technically inept, cowardly players who will crumble at the first sign of a real fight 99% of the time.
Tactics aside, I don't think anyone in world football is walking into United and doing much with this bunch. To make matters worse, he can't do a rebuild because we made ourselves skint building this squad of apparent strangers to each other.
Yes things look worse because he has a style he wants us to play, and that involves technically decent players in the right positions and we have, instead, footballers who don't know how to pass, cross or score goals, and who panic as soon as the opposition looks a bit 'lively'.
Until we can shore up the squad with actually talented players in some key positions (goalie, Midfield, wing backs, striker), we're going to struggle with tactics that require this.
Tactics aside, I don't think anyone in world football is walking into United and doing much with this bunch. To make matters worse, he can't do a rebuild because we made ourselves skint building this squad of apparent strangers to each other.
Yes things look worse because he has a style he wants us to play, and that involves technically decent players in the right positions and we have, instead, footballers who don't know how to pass, cross or score goals, and who panic as soon as the opposition looks a bit 'lively'.
Until we can shore up the squad with actually talented players in some key positions (goalie, Midfield, wing backs, striker), we're going to struggle with tactics that require this.
He's definitely getting an easy ride. I have a feeling people won't admit it, but had Southgate come in and won 6 out of 22 premier league games the conversations and tone regarding the managerial position would be considerably different
but alas, we'll see how the rest of the season plays out. An EL win could accelerate whatever he's trying to do by a few years as it would allows us more room to do business in the summer
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What’s the point of a manager then? I thought they were supposed to get the best out of the players?
The squad is crap but it is nowhere near as bad as it shown over the last 6 months.
Amorim has failed. We can’t score, we don’t control the midfield and despite playing half a team of defenders we concede goals for fun.
What on earth has he done to get this unequivocal support? It’s bonkers! The guy is a complete spoofer!
Every single team in the PL has worked out how to play against his system. And because he’s so damn stubborn and won’t adapt his tactics, we’re screwed.
The only way it works is if we somehow stumble on signing 2-3 truly world class players that can individually create and score goals.
This is a sure fire way of never getting better as a football team - great idea.
No thanks, let’s get the players who are capable of playing a more controlled, modern system used to it this year and replace the ones that can’t in the summer. Which is what we’re doing. Thankfully the manager and board can see the bigger picture compared to a chunk of very short sighted fans.
Christ I need to just ignore this thread I think
He hasn’t failed, he’s barely begun, and hasn’t even had a fecking summer transfer window ffs.
Honestly some of you lot won’t deserve to enjoy next year when we’ve inevitably improved massively
As hard as it is to turn Hojlund into Haaland, so too is it to turn ETH or Amorim into Pep.
Right now, we are not even sure if Amorim is as good as Moyes is with Everton, let alone Pep...
As an outsider I'm really shocked beyond the Lyon drama he's showing no interest in trying to make Old Trafford a fortress again. To be even in top 7 you need very good home form now given we (Villa) haven't lost a home game in the prem since August 23rd and yet we're far from guaranteed even finishing 6th.
Majority of managers when they come in and take over struggling teams realise the first thing they need to do to get fans onside is start winning at home regularly. If you can do it with a few goals and a bit of style even better. The resilience away from home can come a bit later with more work on the training ground.
Just looking back to Ten Hag's first season. You lost the first game to Brighton 2-1 and then he didn't lose another prem game at OT all season. Won 15/18 including wins against all of Liverpool, Arsenal, Man. City, Villa and Chelsea.
The Wolves game was always going to be difficult given the quick turnaround and the prem being dead for you now but that is added to all the winter defeats to Forest, Bournemouth, Newcastle, Brighton and Palace. Were even losing to Southampton until Amad turned it around last ten minutes.
Amorim's overall league record is P 11 W 3 D 2 L 6 F 14 A 18.
You'll be in serious trouble next season if your first 10 home games are anything close to that and Amorim certainly won't be in a job.
Majority of managers when they come in and take over struggling teams realise the first thing they need to do to get fans onside is start winning at home regularly. If you can do it with a few goals and a bit of style even better. The resilience away from home can come a bit later with more work on the training ground.
Just looking back to Ten Hag's first season. You lost the first game to Brighton 2-1 and then he didn't lose another prem game at OT all season. Won 15/18 including wins against all of Liverpool, Arsenal, Man. City, Villa and Chelsea.
The Wolves game was always going to be difficult given the quick turnaround and the prem being dead for you now but that is added to all the winter defeats to Forest, Bournemouth, Newcastle, Brighton and Palace. Were even losing to Southampton until Amad turned it around last ten minutes.
Amorim's overall league record is P 11 W 3 D 2 L 6 F 14 A 18.
You'll be in serious trouble next season if your first 10 home games are anything close to that and Amorim certainly won't be in a job.
The first six months have been a failure as he has not been able to get this team to function at all. Why is that so difficult to understand?Christ I need to just ignore this thread I think
He hasn’t failed, he’s barely begun, and hasn’t even had a fecking summer transfer window ffs.
Honestly some of you lot won’t deserve to enjoy next year when we’ve inevitably improved massively
Hopefully next season will be different, but on the evidence of what we’ve seen from him so far I don’t think it will be.
He’s too one dimensional with tactical setup and far too inexperienced to get this system to work in the premier League.
So we aren’t allowed to criticise a 50% loss rate then? We just have to keep our mouths shut and let the club slide even further into the shit pipe?
Because this team is quite clearly still a work in progress, so it’s just stupid to label him a failure after such a short period of time and without opportunity to add players that can play his, or frankly any modern progressive system.
You’re allowed to do what you want but you all just look a bit idiotic turning on a manager after such a short period of time.
I like the man, I really do, but there is a very real chance of us not winning another League match this season. If that happens AND we don't win the Europa, I think he'll a very short period next season in which to turn things around. Said it a couple of days ago but Amorim's whole tenure with us could be decided on whether we qualify for the Champions League.
He really isn't. Look at his numbers and game highlights, not the articles and the hype. He's really not doing anything different there and has the same shortcomings and weaknesses.
Abmysal choice. Another manager that has one (!) way of playing. Yet again we need to rebuild with players that fit into a certain system. What happens again when he is sacked?
I hope we back him and give him time
I am sick to death of falling out with managers because they aren't winning after they changed their ways to try and suit us now we have a guy who id refusing to change his ways to suit us and everyone is moaning, give the guy time, I am convinced he will come good.
We hired him knowing what his tactics and formation are and that we would need to commit to supporting him with new players.
The decision to appoint him is looking more questionable day by day.
Not even because the results are poor.
It's a question of whether overhauling the squad in the image of Amorim's favoured formation is even worth it given there's no guarantee he'll even be here in a year's time. There's a bare minimum standard of football and results that need to be achieved to justify keeping him in a job, and would it really surprise anyone if we're still awful 3 months into next season? In which case we'll have invested time and money into his 343 which we'll soon abandon when the new manager comes in.
There's some debate over whether if you build a squad for a 343, can that same squad just seamlessly switch to a 433/4231 whenever we feel like it? To me the formation is specialised. We've all but made Kobbie Mainoo redundant because he needs to play in a 3 man midfield and doesn't have a role in this set up. We're never getting the best out of Garnacho in this system where he needs to take up narrow positions. As we sign more wing backs we'll likely going to end up stockpiling players who won't be good enough full backs and won't be good enough wingers if we switch back to a 4231/433. We'll also end up with an over-abundance of centre backs in the squad if we switch to a back 4 at some point, making the squad unbalanced. The next manager may also want more traditional type wingers/wide forwards than we have in the squad, and we don't have any because we sold them/didn't sign any as they don't suit our 343.
People have tried to downplay the squad rebuild being built for a niche formation but I think it is important.
I don't really blame Amorim - he told the club he wanted to play his way and he'll do it his way even if it takes years. The club signed up for it. At the very least it was an absolute disaster appointing him mid-season with no summer transfer window - we should have waited till this summer to appoint him, or turn back time and sack ETH last summer instead.
Not even because the results are poor.
It's a question of whether overhauling the squad in the image of Amorim's favoured formation is even worth it given there's no guarantee he'll even be here in a year's time. There's a bare minimum standard of football and results that need to be achieved to justify keeping him in a job, and would it really surprise anyone if we're still awful 3 months into next season? In which case we'll have invested time and money into his 343 which we'll soon abandon when the new manager comes in.
There's some debate over whether if you build a squad for a 343, can that same squad just seamlessly switch to a 433/4231 whenever we feel like it? To me the formation is specialised. We've all but made Kobbie Mainoo redundant because he needs to play in a 3 man midfield and doesn't have a role in this set up. We're never getting the best out of Garnacho in this system where he needs to take up narrow positions. As we sign more wing backs we'll likely going to end up stockpiling players who won't be good enough full backs and won't be good enough wingers if we switch back to a 4231/433. We'll also end up with an over-abundance of centre backs in the squad if we switch to a back 4 at some point, making the squad unbalanced. The next manager may also want more traditional type wingers/wide forwards than we have in the squad, and we don't have any because we sold them/didn't sign any as they don't suit our 343.
People have tried to downplay the squad rebuild being built for a niche formation but I think it is important.
I don't really blame Amorim - he told the club he wanted to play his way and he'll do it his way even if it takes years. The club signed up for it. At the very least it was an absolute disaster appointing him mid-season with no summer transfer window - we should have waited till this summer to appoint him, or turn back time and sack ETH last summer instead.
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I still back him and I still believe in him. But momentum is a thing, and its scary how little we have or have been able to build under him really.
I do think we've shown signs of improvement, but if our business isn't good in the summer, do I think he'll get a much better tune out of some of these lot next season? Not really based on the evidence.
What I'd hate to think is he's got this job too early, because I do think he will be a very good manager.
I do think we've shown signs of improvement, but if our business isn't good in the summer, do I think he'll get a much better tune out of some of these lot next season? Not really based on the evidence.
What I'd hate to think is he's got this job too early, because I do think he will be a very good manager.
Balanced take on it.
Is Amorim only confident in playing “his way” or is it more of a personal belief system that governs how he plays football? I’m really struggling to understand where he stands on the tactical side of things as all good managers are able to seamlessly pivot to completely different formations when required which I think Amorim is capable of?
This is true, but the players are obviously not going to dictate Amorim's preferred tactics and formation. Rather, players will be bought and sold to accomodate the needs of the formation.
I believe SJR met with Tuchel and decided to not continue the talks (presumably Tuchel wanted too much control over transfers or something like that). Once the toxicity of Ten Hag became unbearable, Berada decided to move for Ruben; knowing that if he didn't do it in late October, that City might've swooped in for him before season's end since Hugo Viana was on his way to City.
For me its a bit late in the season to switch formations given that the league is already done for us. The best case scenario is to stay the course buy the appropriate players in the summer who meet the profile. A capable striker being the most important.
This pretty much. It's not like it's an easy position to play. Very few of our wingers/fullbacks over the years would be able to play WB and they were actually good in their positions.
Isn't that the trouble though. Imagine we sold Mainoo this summer and Amorim gets sacked next season because we're still terrible, which isn't a particularly unlikely scenario. It would be an absolute disaster.
The question is - is this all worth it? Is he more likely to bring us a league title and CL than the alternatives?
I mean, I still don't think that's good reason to appoint him mid-season. If City swooped for him, we hire someone else. Maybe someone who plays a more common system that will require less squad overhaul and is better for continuity if the appointment doesn't work out.
Oh yes definitely agree that it’s best to stick to what he is comfortable with for this season. But I’d be interested to see how he approaches the tactical side of things (esp on going with a back 3) next season. Especially if we end up in the CL.
I wouldn't get attached to any player at this point. The club has to be merciless in its pursuit of winning again, and a central part of that means having the ruthlessness to sell anyone if need be in order to buy to accomodate the coach's perferred tactics and formation.
As for hiring him mid season - that was apparently a Berada project. He seems to have been a fan of Ruben's and insisted it happen then, or not at all. At that point, there weren't any big name managers available who met Ratcliffe and Berada's profile, and there likely wouldn't have been until this summer. So once the ETH toxicity began to spill over, it seems they decided they had to move swiftly and decisively.
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The same way people can make excuses for anyone
Amorim must have seen something incredibly appalling about Rashford to kick him to the curb in only six weeks of being at the club. If that something was a lack of effort in training (as many think it was based on Amorim's subsequent comments) then he was completely justified in getting rid of him. In an ideal world, Amorim would've inherited the 30 goal Rashford of two seasons ago. Instead he got the player of one season ago, and the fact that his private life was being publicized by way of his DM habits, probably made the decision to get rid much easier.
I have seen this posted so much in this thread that I think there is some merit in debunking it.
Let’s face it, whenever a new manager comes - he will need 3-4 new players (and that doesn’t count as a squad overhaul).
So really - it doesn’t matter what formation we are building towards but more the profile and calibre of players we are buying.
Currently, we have a squad which is completely lacking physicality and power, and finishing ability. That’s why the formation is looking worse than the actual play from the team. We finish a few of the chances being created (both under Ten Hag and under Amorim this year), and things don’t look as bad.
On player specific profiles, our purchases need to fit into the system with the capability to also switch where needed. The only real specialist position for Amorim is the wing back - which is 2 positions only. He’s not going to get rid of wingers entirely- that’s media propaganda.
He’s always had 2 no 10s one of which is a winger type and the other is a more traditional 10. Again our problem is we don’t have sufficient athletic ability in those positions
Makes me wonder why Rashford didn't go all out to impress the new boss. World Cup coming up, out of the England squad, he had every incentive to pull his socks up for Amorim who would surely have given him a chance.
I have never believed that formation, any formation, is a major issue. It's your approach to the game that really matters. Right now we play with six or seven defenders or defensive minded players in our XI and it's no wonder we struggle to score goals. Playing with 3 CB's, 2 defensive minded CM's and 2 WB's who are not very adept at attacking is not a recipe for a high scoring team. The best we have looked under Ruben, imo, is when we played Amad as a RWB and had more attacking players on the pitch.
We are still not very good at moving the ball out from the back and are bad at build-ups. We can hardly move the ball fast enough to put the opposition under pressure. Our slow build-up allows the opposition to regroup and retain their defensive position making it much easier to stop us. We also don't know how to high press effectively to win the ball high up the pitch and attack the opposition. Even shit teams can defend well when the play is in front of them. Teams struggle when you can effectively and constantly get behind them and ask them to defend. Counter-attack is still our most effective form of attack and in our team Garnacho is the only won with decent pace to counter-attack since we decided to let Marcus leave on loan.
My main gripe with Ruben is that despite the time and leeway he has been afforded, he hasn't been able to show much improvement in our style of play. We are not defensively solid or adept at moving the ball well or pressing or scoring goals. We are basically a nothing team that is sussed out pretty fast by the opposition and defeated. He has been in charge for more than 30 games and that is enough time to give a glimpse into the future. Unfortunately, he has shown nothing so far besides the ability to talk a good game and be charming. The worst for me is the number of PL games at home we have failed to score. There are no excuses for that.
We are still not very good at moving the ball out from the back and are bad at build-ups. We can hardly move the ball fast enough to put the opposition under pressure. Our slow build-up allows the opposition to regroup and retain their defensive position making it much easier to stop us. We also don't know how to high press effectively to win the ball high up the pitch and attack the opposition. Even shit teams can defend well when the play is in front of them. Teams struggle when you can effectively and constantly get behind them and ask them to defend. Counter-attack is still our most effective form of attack and in our team Garnacho is the only won with decent pace to counter-attack since we decided to let Marcus leave on loan.
My main gripe with Ruben is that despite the time and leeway he has been afforded, he hasn't been able to show much improvement in our style of play. We are not defensively solid or adept at moving the ball well or pressing or scoring goals. We are basically a nothing team that is sussed out pretty fast by the opposition and defeated. He has been in charge for more than 30 games and that is enough time to give a glimpse into the future. Unfortunately, he has shown nothing so far besides the ability to talk a good game and be charming. The worst for me is the number of PL games at home we have failed to score. There are no excuses for that.
I would sell any player for a league title tomorrow, no questions asked.
It's a question of whether we'll genuinely be in a better position by selling some of our best talents to rebuild a squad to suit a niche formation, vs hiring a different manager who plays a more common system which also allows us to keep our those talents instead of selling them. The risk-reward ratio seems off to me.
This mid-season appointment of Amorim can never really be anything but a disaster in terms of results this season, so we've not really gained anything by sacking ETH mid-season rather than letting him see it out to the summer. Or alternatively we could have given an interim the until the summer.
There is a doomsday rhetoric of "there's no good managers" every time we feel a change of manager is needed and it's the same thing we were told in the summer just gone which resulted in us keeping Ten Hag which put us in this mess in the first place. Liverpool just plucked a guy from the Dutch league who had a less impressive CV than ETH/Amorim and he's about to win a league title. There are always good managers out there the same way there are good players to sign, you just have to identify them and then ensure the club's recruitment team is spot on to give the manager an actual chance at success.
I'm of the opinion that the Rashford situation was coming to a head no matter who the manager was... he got one last chance but that was all he was getting. I wouldn't be surprised if Amorim was told before taking the job to expect what he got from Rashford and that the club were already intending to move him on.
I think there's something wrong with him and he really can't see the lack of effort. Maybe he's become immune to critism because he got so much of it in his life, that he just switches it off. Maybe he listens to the wrong people. Or maybe the club just broke him. Who knows. I think the whole thing is just sad, but he had to go.
This squad needed a rebuild no matter who we appointed given the lack of quality. That isn't the issue.
But we can't pretend the rebuild won't look different than if we hired a manager who plays a back 4, and we can't pretend there aren't effects on continuity if we have to sack Amorim at some point and we end up with a manager who doesn't play the same niche formation.
Here are the obvious ways the rebuild of the squad is now different than if we hired a manager who plays a back 4
- Under a different manager Garnacho would almost certainly be kept as one of say 4 wide players competing for the two wing spots. Now we're thinking he probably needs to go because he doesn't suit this team
- Under a different manager we'd have a role for our best academy talent in a 3 man midfield, whereas now he has no obvious role in the team and may leave
- Under Amorim we'll end up with more centre backs on our books than we need if we ever switch to back a 4
- We'll be recruiting wing backs who may or may not be suited to a back 4 if we ever go back to it
These are very big decisions with longer term consequences if it all goes wrong.
Ultimately our current position I blame mostly on our recruitment team and Ten Hag for building a horrendous squad. It seems likely Amorim is a good manager in a bad set of conditions.
The club's overall strategy of keeping ETH in the summer, signing players to his liking in the summer, sacking him after 3 months and then appointing a manager who plays a niche system mid-season seems to be very, very dumb, and when I look at the league table I feel perfectly vindicated in that viewpoint.
Good points to be honest.
I truthfully don't understand how with every subsequent manager, the standards on here go down more and more.