Ruben Amorim | Sacked

[InspiRED]

Pointing out the problems in the squad is a good thing. But the only people you need to do this to are the people running the club, not the media and fans. If you're doing it in public it's a self serving attempt to deflect criticism and pander to the fans.

As manager you're supposed to be motivating and inspiring the squad we do have, not throwing them to the wolves in public because you want the squad we don't have. It's weak leadership borne of insecurity.

Being against his sacking is one thing. I don't begrudge anyone thinking he needed more time. I actually agree to some extent (although his rigidity meant it was always going to take a long time to get the exact right players) . What I do find odd is how some people refuse to acknowledge the very valid reasons why he deserved to be sacked and cling on to our flimsy league position as some kind of definitive proof that he's the man worth backing.

1) In an ideal world, this wouldn't happen. But I imagine it's a fairly impossible task, being the public face of years of mismanagement and underinvestment and board feck-ups. Managers know they need fans onside because that's what moves the needle ultimately.
2) I think it was ill-advised how he went about it, so I agree with you on at least some of this point.
3) Here's where we mainly disagree. First, I would say that definitive proof of anything in life is rare. The evidence around the time of his sacking, for me, was that at the least it was an utterly foolhardy time to sack the guy. As for very valid reasons why he deserved to be sacked. I just don't agree with this. He had his vision of how to get the club back on top, and he pursued it relentlessly, regardless of the short-term pain (shipping out Rashford goals), being left with the worst attack any of us can remember. I think he definitely underestimated the league and the turmoil that would be created, but he was on the way to fixing it. Things like that aren't gonna get fixed overnight; there's going to be erratic results and form, but all the signs were that the system was stabilising (we had stopped losing far less than the last season and the previous ETH one). So, no definitive proof, but plenty of evidence that the sacking was hideously badly timed.

 

[Blood Mage]

So is this guy ever going to make a statement to the fans or is that the last we’ll ever hear from him now his £10million heist is complete?

This is why I don't understand the blind loyalty our fans have to these coaches who don't really give a feck about the club. Apart from Ole, I understood the sentiment there.

 

[the chameleon]

He is suffering.

He is definitely suffering far more than all of us fans!

 

[tjb]

Pointing out the problems in the squad is a good thing. But the only people you need to do this to are the people running the club, not the media and fans. If you're doing it in public it's a self serving attempt to deflect criticism and pander to the fans.

As manager you're supposed to be motivating and inspiring the squad we do have, not throwing them to the wolves in public because you want the squad we don't have. It's weak leadership borne of insecurity.

Being against his sacking is one thing. I don't begrudge anyone thinking he needed more time. I actually agree to some extent (although his rigidity meant it was always going to take a long time to get the exact right players) . What I do find odd is how some people refuse to acknowledge the very valid reasons why he deserved to be sacked and cling on to our flimsy league position as some kind of definitive proof that he's the man worth backing.

I think this is the sign. It's funny, but I think we need a tighter leash on our managers. All of them, outside of Ole, have done this and survived. The irony is, the worst performing ones are the ones who do this most often. I think our managers are far to open with the press and always seem to air out their biases. We're United, unless you're Pep, Jose or Luis Enrique, I don't think any manager has the right or current reputation to use press conferences as a way to bash players or the club. Managers would not dare do this at Bayern, Madrid or Barcelona, yet I don't know why we've always allowed it. The fans also crave it as well, but I think it actually spurs the toxic culture people complain so much about. We need a tighter control of how information is shared, even with our managers. Fans may want to hear about all the difficulties and challenges our managers have to deal with, but the reality is that it always comes from a self-serving perspective. We don't have Sir Alex who is comfortable enough to genuinely be honest in these interactions ( and even he wasn't really all the time). From LVG using it to alienate players, to Mourinho using it to do the same, to Rangnick using it to buy fan sympathy, to Ten Haag using it to lie and Amorim weaponizing it to get his way. How many times do we have to be burned by the same thing. It's apparent, and has been apparent since LVG that managers can be as or even more immature than players. So to protect the players and the club, controlling and limiting interviews may be a good alternative moving forward.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

I think this is the sign. It's funny, but I think we need a tighter leash on our managers. All of them, outside of Ole, have done this and survived. The irony is, the worst performing ones are the ones who do this most often. I think our managers are far to open with the press and always seem to air out their biases. We're United, unless you're Pep, Jose or Luis Enrique, I don't think any manager has the right or current reputation to use press conferences as a way to bash players or the club. Managers would not dare do this at Bayern, Madrid or Barcelona, yet I don't know why we've always allowed it. The fans also crave it as well, but I think it actually spurs the toxic culture people complain so much about. We need a tighter control of how information is shared, even with our managers. Fans may want to hear about all the difficulties and challenges our managers have to deal with, but the reality is that it always comes from a self-serving perspective. We don't have Sir Alex who is comfortable enough to genuinely be honest in these interactions ( and even he wasn't really all the time). From LVG using it to alienate players, to Mourinho using it to do the same, to Rangnick using it to buy fan sympathy, to Ten Haag using it to lie and Amorim weaponizing it to get his way. How many times do we have to be burned by the same thing. It's apparent, and has been apparent since LVG that managers can be as or even more immature than players. So to protect the players and the club, controlling and limiting interviews may be a good alternative moving forward.

We have allowed our managers to do exactly what they want, and to have a complete freedom, with no consequences.

We don’t want managers to be gagged, but we need to have an element of control over what they say. They need to be aligned the bigger picture.

We have lost millions because of the way managers have treated or talked about players. Players that had no future at the club, but you don’t be so public about it.

 

[Irwin99]

I feel there’s a real tension between the need for complete transformation and the need to preserve a sense of tradition. I feel that our managers are constantly under pressure to preserve a tradition or do things in a certain way. Amorim and Jose admitted to tokenism with regard to the youth record, that they didn’t want to be the ones to break it (which rendered the record meaningless btw). The resistance to the three at the back, or LvG’s possession based football, or EtH’s insistence that he can’t play Ajax football here. The constant nagging and “back in my day” of the class of 92 and others. There’s the real weight of history around every managers neck.

I’m seeing more articles in the media in the last few days ridiculing the “United DNA” stuff and the bringing back of legends. I think it has a point.

 

[steffyr2]

Besides, there’s nothing to agree or disagree about regarding Amorims sacking. He gave the board no option but to terminate him.
If he hadn’t rocked the boat he’d most likely still be in a job today.

They could have a) displayed the absolute minimum man-management skills, b) fired themselves for not doing their jobs re developing plans for player recruitment and structuring roles at UTD, or c) realized that they were in no position to dump an entire coaching staff and behave accordingly.

 

[NZT-One]

I have not read a word of Andy mittens take, nor do I care what he has to say. Plenty of people agree with you, plenty of people disagree. It doesn't matter.

What I saw from his team is that, yeah, the players looked happy and there didn't seem to be a mass falling out like other managers, but we lacked focus and composure and we were regularly outfought by teams with less individual ability. That's also part of the squad's mentality.

Yes, we need better players, but a manager has to work with what he has until then. And that was the point of my original post responding to the idea that Mourinho, Rangnick and Amorim were these great revolutionaries that were wrongly hounded out of the club. When the reality is they reacted to the pressure by criticising others in public. Inspiring indeed.

It is a part of squad mentality, I would agree. But how well you do in a fight doesn't necessarily connect with your will mostly - you need the tools and strength to match your opponent as well. Look at our midfield - rather weak Bruno, 31 years old. Casemiro who Real started to phase out 4 years ago at 33, about 4 weeks to being 34. Mainoo 20 and not known for running power yet. Ugarte, 24, the player who most fans would happily get rid of. Those are the players who are supposed to fight in the middle of the pitch. Against teams, that will try to field players in their prime age, so between 23 to 29 where they blend experience, hunger and capability. Mentality is important. But I wouldn't drag it into the Top3 of reasons why we get outfought. Also, I'd love to know how you inspire compusure when the technical ability simply isn't there.

And to a degree, you focus on the criticism a lot, but in a lot of those statements, the manager said that he knows about the issues and about the way he wanted to approach them. It wasn't as much of a "I would love to do better but my players are too shit to do it" but a "it looks bleak but we are aware and on. it".

There is a point to be made that some statements aren't ideal, but in a time, where every sentence gets dragged out of context and the hunt for virality and soundbites is as big as it is, there won't be many managers out there who don't make mistakes.

Yeah, he was.

But if you did a poll back then (on here - and elsewhere), there's little doubt a majority of United fans (in all kinds of categories, including locals/match goers) were in favour of him.

He was the fan favourite to take over when Fergie retired too (which made more sense, arguably - but he remained a fan favourite and was absolutely a very popular man when it became clear that LVG was done).

ETA Yes, he was divisive (of course - he's always been that), many United fans didn't want him. But he was - undoubtedly - wanted by a majority of world wide United fans both as Fergie's immediate successor and as LVG's replacement.

Not sure about the popularity but from what I remember, the notion around him was already that he most likely wouldn't be the manager to really lead us into a new era but rather that he would bring a certain degree of success to relax the mood a little bit so more substantial change could be made. People had a good idea, that his methods wouldn't be favoring sustainability. he was an interesting character, I never got why people still hang on to him to a degree. His time here was also a time where no steps into modern times were made.

We have allowed our managers to do exactly what they want, and to have a complete freedom, with no consequences.

We don’t want managers to be gagged, but we need to have an element of control over what they say. They need to be aligned the bigger picture.

We have lost millions because of the way managers have treated or talked about players. Players that had no future at the club, but you don’t be so public about it.

I understand the sentiment, but also lets not act as if we as fans know more than the decision makers of other clubs. Whatever we thought of Garnacho at the time, professionals that earn their money to know knew as well. Calling them out in public wasn't a good move because it created pressure to the inside, but the notion that this is why we lost money is pretty thin.

 

[Shiva87]

Now that Carrick is almost announced, I’ll get behind him and hope the results improve massively.

Amorim is gone and his process is over. Whether it would have resulted in us getting back to the top is now completely moot. Maybe Sir Jim can send him some Emojis now and let this be the end of this discussion!.

Come on Carras!

 

[gaffs]

I feel there’s a real tension between the need for complete transformation and the need to preserve a sense of tradition. I feel that our managers are constantly under pressure to preserve a tradition or do things in a certain way. Amorim and Jose admitted to tokenism with regard to the youth record, that they didn’t want to be the ones to break it (which rendered the record meaningless btw). The resistance to the three at the back, or LvG’s possession based football, or EtH’s insistence that he can’t play Ajax football here. The constant nagging and “back in my day” of the class of 92 and others. There’s the real weight of history around every managers neck.

I’m seeing more articles in the media in the last few days ridiculing the “United DNA” stuff and the bringing back of legends. I think it has a point.

Honestly, I think this is an excuse the failed or failing managers make. Or one that their supporters/sympathizers make for them.

If we are in a positions of competing for titles and the football doesn't look like is did under SAF, then I don't think we hear many complaints. But we are yet to see that.

If the results are crap and the football stinks, which is what we saw under the managers you mentioned above, then it's natural there will be noise.

 

[Kayla40TS]

We could have discussed performances, or context, or nuances etc. But you were the one that specifically chose to claim we had gotten good results, whilst using a loss as your example. That was an odd choice so I pointed it out. Losses generally aren’t considered a good result.

Agreed, using the wins we got against Chelsea and Liverpool instead would have been a much more sensible example of good results against top teams, albeit slightly less relevant, as we don’t play either of them in any of our upcoming games. As a reminder, the poster you were originally replying to was specifically talking about our upcoming games against teams we “couldn’t get results against”. We play Arsenal and City in our upcoming games, both of whom we lost to in the reverse fixtures. So he was on the money with his statement.

That's a fair point. As someone who prides themselves on accuracy of language that was a glaring mistake on my part. Apologies. We have had decent results against the top half and therefore I shouldn't have needed to bolster my point with a bad example.

 

[iKnowNothing]

What's with the title change?

 

[Rolaholic]

Jokers

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

I got an email from Ruben Amorim last night saying he’s come into tens of millions of pounds, and he needs me to just hold the money in my account until he’s back in Nigeria (admittedly that part didn’t make sense ). And he’ll give me 10% of the money just for giving him my banking details! I always knew Amorim was legit.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Jokers

Sources say that if Amorim had won more games and didn’t turn out to be a big baby, then he would have kept his job. Simples.

 

[JohnnyLaw]

They could have a) displayed the absolute minimum man-management skills, b) fired themselves for not doing their jobs re developing plans for player recruitment and structuring roles at UTD, or c) realized that they were in no position to dump an entire coaching staff and behave accordingly.

A) And how would that have worked?

In spite of all his failures- Ineos bent over backwards for this guy for over a year and the moment they applied just the tiniest bit of pressure on him he cracked lika an egg and threw a strop.

B) Good one.

C) How were they not in a position to do that?

 

[Scanny]

Has Amorim posted any sort of thank you message to the fans for their endless patience and support?
I might have missed it but if he hasn’t that’s really poor.

 

[sugar_kane]

Has Amorim posted any sort of thank you message to the fans for their endless patience and support?
I might have missed it but if he hasn’t that’s really poor.

Asked this earlier and had a few jump on me saying that managers never do that, why should I care etc.

Five minutes of googling confirmed that Van Gaal, Moyes, Ten Hag and even Mourinho all released statements thanking the fans within three days of being sacked.

It just confirms that he’s an egotistical, arrogant arse.

Out of all the managers he’s the one he deserved the least support for his awful results and outrageous statements, and yet the fans sang his (awful) song week in week out.

He should have stuck to his word and walked after the Europa final.

 

[JustAGuest]

Seems to be an overlap between those who were desperate to see him gone and those who are upset he hasn't posted a message yet.

 

[#07]

Asked this earlier and had a few jump on me saying that managers never do that, why should I care etc.

Five minutes of googling confirmed that Van Gaal, Moyes, Ten Hag and even Mourinho all released statements thanking the fans within three days of being sacked.

It just confirms that he’s an egotistical, arrogant arse.

Out of all the managers he’s the one he deserved the least support for his awful results and outrageous statements, and yet the fans sang his (awful) song week in week out.

Agree with all of this.

The amount of salt we had to suck, only to hear the chancer come out time and time again and say he is suffering more than anyone including us.

Yet, until the end, matchgoing fans barely turned. Boos against Wolves was basically it. When at somewhere like Real Madrid he would've been chased out of town with white hankies.

Snake oil salesman and cult leader. I hope to God that one day Man Utd come up against an Amorim team and absolutely annihilate them. Got no time for the man whatsoever.

Even the Pope can't change my formation. FFS. The amount of s-t he spoke and yet he had some hanging off every word.

 

[sugar_kane]

Seems to be an overlap between those who were desperate to see him gone and those who are upset he hasn't posted a message yet.

Incredible observation, the people who thought he was a terrible manager are also annoyed at him for not having the decency to thank the fans who supported him despite all of that?

The hypocrisy!

 

[AndySmith1990]

Agree with all of this.

The amount of salt we had to suck, only to hear the chancer come out time and time again and say he is suffering more than anyone including us.

Yet, until the end, matchgoing fans barely turned. Boos against Wolves was basically it. When at somewhere like Real Madrid he would've been chased out of town with white hankies.

Snake oil salesman and cult leader. I hope to God that one day Man Utd come up against an Amorim team and absolutely annihilate them. Got no time for the man whatsoever.

Even the Pope can't change my formation. FFS. The amount of s-t he spoke and yet he had some hanging off every word.

It's a good case study into how gullible the average football fan is when it comes to young foreign coaches they know nothing about.

If we'd hired Southgate and the results and performances were identical, he'd have been treated very differently

 

[JustAGuest]

Incredible observation, the people who thought he was a terrible manager are also annoyed at him for not having the decency to thank the fans who supported him despite all of that?

The hypocrisy!

And if he releases a statement tomorrow I assume that changes your opinion of him?

 

[steffyr2]

Asked this earlier and had a few jump on me saying that managers never do that, why should I care etc.

Five minutes of googling confirmed that Van Gaal, Moyes, Ten Hag and even Mourinho all released statements thanking the fans within three days of being sacked.

It just confirms that he’s an egotistical, arrogant arse.

Out of all the managers he’s the one he deserved the least support for his awful results and outrageous statements, and yet the fans sang his (awful) song week in week out.

He should have stuck to his word and walked after the Europa final.

You know when I hire people, I appreciate people who act like they know what they're doing, are detail oriented about implementing their vision, and excited to get started.
Sounds like Utd currently, and especially the Utd mgmt and a significant number of fans, wants a milksop who won't rock the boat. Hopefully this new person can get the team to play better while they're doing great press conferences.

 

[Scanny]

Asked this earlier and had a few jump on me saying that managers never do that, why should I care etc.

Five minutes of googling confirmed that Van Gaal, Moyes, Ten Hag and even Mourinho all released statements thanking the fans within three days of being sacked.

It just confirms that he’s an egotistical, arrogant arse.

Out of all the managers he’s the one he deserved the least support for his awful results and outrageous statements, and yet the fans sang his (awful) song week in week out.

He should have stuck to his word and walked after the Europa final.

I was neither a Ruben In or Ruben Out.
I was resigned to enduring his football for three years as per INEOS statement.

Even so. Not to thank the fans singing his name to the last is disgraceful. Absolutely classless.

 

[JustAGuest]

You know when I hire people, I appreciate people who act like they know what they're doing, are detail oriented about implementing their vision, and excited to get started.
Sounds like Utd currently, and especially the Utd mgmt and a significant number of fans, wants a milksop who won't rock the boat. Hopefully this new person can get the team to play better while they're doing great press conferences.

He's been too honest with the press. We need someone PR trained who says the right things and absolutely does not question the upper management!

 

[Olecurls99]

It's a good case study into how gullible the average football fan is when it comes to young foreign coaches they know nothing about.

If we'd hired Southgate and the results and performances were identical, he'd have been treated very differently

If he'd taken us over in 14th and gotten us to 6th, I would still be backing Southgate. It's quite simple really. There's a league table with a points system to show you signs of improvement or otherwise. The average football fan does seem to struggle with it alright though.