Ruben Neves

bond19821982

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Just gonna repost this. Here are some top 10 stat lists for midfielders in the Premier League:

3rd for Tackles, but with fewer instances of being 'dribbled past' than most others. In short, he's a top ball winner who doesn't sell himself easily

1st for Interceptions.

8th for being Dispossed.

10th for Unsuccessful Touches.

1st for Long Balls

Neves would be fantastic for our double pivot. For some reason, people are holding his occasional goal scoring against him. And maybe others are opposed because they have a particular midfield shape in mind for the future. Those preconceptions aside, there's very little Neves can't do as a total package.

But if you're basing it on what Manchester United have been building towards for the last two-an-a-half seasons under Ole, he'd be an excellent fit and a fantastic upgrade. Newcastle fans were equally unsure about Wijnaldum before he won the CL and PL with Liverpool and now seems to be on the verge of signing for Barcelona.
Good post, doing better than what I thought initially. Whenever I watched Wolves, he has been average as well. I have never warmed to the idea of Rice . So if this guy is a better fit then, let's try it. 30m isn't a lot of money anyway. We would still get most of the money , if we were to sell him later.
 

Who's Kissing Cameras?

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The myth that there's a DM in world football that can play behind Pogba and Bruno needs to be eradicated.

Unless that DM is a cement wall across the width of the pitch, it's not gonna happen.
Fernandinho in Peps system. David Silva and KDB were exclusively lightweight #10s without a defensive bone in their body before the conversion.

Ndidi could also do it.
 

8thWonder

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When you look at the players in and around him in those lists, all it highlights is that they're not very good barometers of how good a player is.
Or that you underestimate how good those players are?

Phillips, Hojbjerg, Bissouma, Fred, Rodri, Soucek are all on there multiple times. I think people under value Fred's strengths quite a lot because of the balance in midfield for example. But there's no doubt that those mentioned above are all good to very good players in there roles is there?

There is another argument about stats, and these obviously being handpicked to show case Neves in particular but I'd disagree with your point as I think those mentioned could all add something to our squad easily.
 

WolfInSharp'sClothing

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Carrick had a lot of qualities I am yet to see in Neves
Carrick's dribbling was much better. He could actually beat a man. He was also much better in the air than Neves is.

The player Neves most reminds me of is Xabi Alonso, although obviously nowhere near his level yet.
 

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Do you need 11 world class players to win the PL?
Did I say he needed to be world class ? I just don't see what qualities people see in Neves that makes him the midfielder we should buy. I am not saying he should be world class - but he should at least be better than what we have. Otherwise he is just another squad player. And don't interpret this like I think he is a poor player - he is a good player, but is he top 10 in his position the P.L ? Probably not. Do I see a lot of potential in him, that could turn him into one of the best ? Probably not more than I see in mcTominay. He won't be a bad signing - I just think there are better players out there at the same price. And maybe most of all - I just don't see what position he should play - he is not good enough to be a defensive midfielder, and he is not creative enough to be an attacking midfielder. And as long as we have Bruno and Pogba we can't have a box-to-box midfielder - because those 2 dont work defensively very well.
 

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Did I say he needed to be world class ? I just don't see what qualities people see in Neves that makes him the midfielder we should buy. I am not saying he should be world class - but he should at least be better than what we have. Otherwise he is just another squad player. And don't interpret this like I think he is a poor player - he is a good player, but is he top 10 in his position the P.L ? Probably not. Do I see a lot of potential in him, that could turn him into one of the best ? Probably not more than I see in mcTominay. He won't be a bad signing - I just think there are better players out there at the same price. And maybe most of all - I just don't see what position he should play - he is not good enough to be a defensive midfielder, and he is not creative enough to be an attacking midfielder. And as long as we have Bruno and Pogba we can't have a box-to-box midfielder - because those 2 dont work defensively very well.
In what way do you think he isn't good enough to be a defensive midfielder?
 

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Fernandinho in Peps system. David Silva and KDB were exclusively lightweight #10s without a defensive bone in their body before the conversion.

Ndidi could also do it.
City have a different way of playing, its not as simple as that. City when they have the ball play something like this :

--Foden--Jesus--Sterling
---Gundogan--KdB
----Cancelo---Rodri
---Diaz--Stones--Walker

Basically one of their fullback like Cancelo or Zinchenko, move into the midfield. There are many reasons our squad isnt really suited to this. Read this article for further analysis.

Also like I said before, its not as simple as putting a very defensive DM and suddenly its fine. Pogba struggles with controlling games from deep. That's why the Pogba-Matic partnership struggled when teams press us. A Kroos or a Thiago is much more suited to the Pogba position for a team looking to dominate the ball.
 

JJ12

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Are there any decent links or just talksport?
People may have wasted a lot of time talking about him.
 

largelyworried

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Or that you underestimate how good those players are?

Phillips, Hojbjerg, Bissouma, Fred, Rodri, Soucek are all on there multiple times. I think people under value Fred's strengths quite a lot because of the balance in midfield for example. But there's no doubt that those mentioned above are all good to very good players in there roles is there?

There is another argument about stats, and these obviously being handpicked to show case Neves in particular but I'd disagree with your point as I think those mentioned could all add something to our squad easily.
No of appearances on those lists, ranked
PlayerNumber of appearances
Ruben Neves
5​
Harrison Reed
5​
Joao Moutinho
4​
Oliver Norwood
4​
Fred
3​
Kalvin Phillips
3​
Jonjo Shelvey
3​
Yves Bissouma
2​
Pierre-Emile Hojbjerg
2​
Luka Milivojević
2​
Andre-Frank Zambo Ang
2​
Tomas Soucek
2​
Ashley Westwood
2​
Douglas Luiz
2​
Rodri
2​
Conor Gallagher
1​
Declan Rice
1​
James Ward-Prowse
1​
John McGin
1​
Youri Tielemans
1​
If you wanna argue that's the list of the PL's best midfielders, be my guest.
 

Dante

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Are there any decent links or just talksport?
People may have wasted a lot of time talking about him.
link

Someone called Dean Jones from Eurosport also said, “I’m told that the Neves pursuit is genuine. And while Arsenal are the most active in trying to get that over the line, United are still in the conversation."
 

Who's Kissing Cameras?

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City have a different way of playing, its not as simple as that. City when they have the ball play something like this :

--Foden--Jesus--Sterling
---Gundogan--KdB
----Cancelo---Rodri
---Diaz--Stones--Walker

Basically one of their fullback like Cancelo or Zinchenko, move into the midfield. There are many reasons our squad isnt really suited to this. Read this article for further analysis.

Also like I said before, its not as simple as putting a very defensive DM and suddenly its fine. Pogba struggles with controlling games from deep. That's why the Pogba-Matic partnership struggled when teams press us. A Kroos or a Thiago is much more suited to the Pogba position for a team looking to dominate the ball.
I’m specifically talking about 2017-18 ‘Centurion :(‘ City which was:

Ferna
KDB Silva
Sterling Aguero Sane

With Delph and Walker at full back. Don’t think they tucked in like Zinchenko and Cancelo do present day.
 

8thWonder

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What stats though? I mean what do you want from a DM?
Don't get me wrong, those stats have some of the same names pop up multiple times so they're obviously picking up some things but my point badly made was that if you're evaluating players for football clubs I would hope you would take into account a lot more stats that we haven't here.

It's a good starting point maybe but those don't mean he will or won't be a good fit for United do they? Obviously those stats aren't easily obtained. They would have to be bespoke stats surely? For example, how about a players positioning and how that translates into how you want your team to play? And 100s more that aren't common footballing knowledge now.

They're nice stats that gives you some indication as to what they're good and maybe not so good at, but I'm not sure how relevant any of these more common stats are now in advising clubs which players to go for?

Lies, damn lies and statistics is a cliche but it's still as relevant than ever. You can always 'prove' an argument with selected stats.
 

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RedSky

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Don't get me wrong, those stats have some of the same names pop up multiple times so they're obviously picking up some things but my point badly made was that if you're evaluating players for football clubs I would hope you would take into account a lot more stats that we haven't here.

It's a good starting point maybe but those don't mean he will or won't be a good fit for United do they? Obviously those stats aren't easily obtained. They would have to be bespoke stats surely? For example, how about a players positioning and how that translates into how you want your team to play? And 100s more that aren't common footballing knowledge now.

They're nice stats that gives you some indication as to what they're good and maybe not so good at, but I'm not sure how relevant any of these more common stats are now in advising clubs which players to go for?

Lies, damn lies and statistics is a cliche but it's still as relevant than ever. You can always 'prove' an argument with selected stats.
But if you're looking at the defensive part of the game then Neves is actually very, very good. His weakness is his heading, which is average, not as bad as Fred mind who is utterly terrible at heading. But Neves scores very high in tackling and intercepting. He's also very good at picking out team mates and pushing the team forward with long passing. This is why i'm confused, what traits are people looking for with a DM?
 

izak

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link

Someone called Dean Jones from Eurosport also said, “I’m told that the Neves pursuit is genuine. And while Arsenal are the most active in trying to get that over the line, United are still in the conversation."
For me i think his Agent is using United's name to force a bid out of Arsenal since maybe Arsenal are more interested in Locatelli, We've seen this before with Caicedo of Brighton as recently as January this year, I'll be shocked if United are truely interested in him.
 

8thWonder

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No of appearances on those lists, ranked
PlayerNumber of appearances
Ruben Neves
5​
Harrison Reed
5​
Joao Moutinho
4​
Oliver Norwood
4​
Fred
3​
Kalvin Phillips
3​
Jonjo Shelvey
3​
Yves Bissouma
2​
Pierre-Emile Hojbjerg
2​
Luka Milivojević
2​
Andre-Frank Zambo Ang
2​
Tomas Soucek
2​
Ashley Westwood
2​
Douglas Luiz
2​
Rodri
2​
Conor Gallagher
1​
Declan Rice
1​
James Ward-Prowse
1​
John McGin
1​
Youri Tielemans
1​
If you wanna argue that's the list of the PL's best midfielders, be my guest.
The stats are defensive qualities so we're looking at defensivly minded players. And I would only think they were the best defensive midfielders if you think those stats alone are the most important ones for a defensive midfielder...

Having said that, Other than Fernandinho who didn't play that much and Fabinho who played most of the season as a centre back how many others would you have on there? Kante is a box to box so Jorginho would be an obvious one maybe... But I think that list is a relatively good summary as to who were the best performers in that role were over the course of last season yes.
 

Berbasbullet

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But if you're looking at the defensive part of the game then Neves is actually very, very good. His weakness is his heading, which is average, not as bad as Fred mind who is utterly terrible at heading. But Neves scores very high in tackling and intercepting. He's also very good at picking out team mates and pushing the team forward with long passing. This is why i'm confused, what traits are people looking for with a DM?
You’re making me want him now, ultimately I think we need a DM who can first and foremost pass the ball between the lines, and receive the ball under pressure. They also need to have good interception/closing passing lane skills and tackling.
 

8thWonder

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But if you're looking at the defensive part of the game then Neves is actually very, very good. His weakness is his heading, which is average, not as bad as Fred mind who is utterly terrible at heading. But Neves scores very high in tackling and intercepting. He's also very good at picking out team mates and pushing the team forward with long passing. This is why i'm confused, what traits are people looking for with a DM?
I agree that Neves is a really good player and I think he'd be a good signing for that role, my point wasn't to diminish any of that, just that stats obviously don't always tell the whole picture.

If you're genuinely asking which stats do I think matter, my starting point is as a complete layman but along with those above, positioning, cutting off passing lines, pressures (if relevant), ability to plug holes tactically, decisions under pressure? How do you statistically gather that data though?

With positioning for example, where would you start? How do you statistically analyse positioning? You could do a heat map but that doesn't tell us much in reality. You would have to work out each teams systems and what was being asked of them and then try to evaluate after each phase of play if you think what they're doing is the correct decision which would be mental?

You watch Matic play and when he's playing at his best he will occassionally pressure quite high by himself in challenges to win the ball, so he doesn't just sit in front of the centre backs, so is positioning more to do with results and outcomes I.e winning the ball or is it just as important to analyse if a player stops a pass by being in the right place at the right time (which is what Carrick was very good at), but generally harder to quantify because it's something that hasn't happened...
 

largelyworried

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The stats are defensive qualities so we're looking at defensivly minded players. And I would only think they were the best defensive midfielders if you think those stats alone are the most important ones for a defensive midfielder...

Having said that, Other than Fernandinho who didn't play that much and Fabinho who played most of the season as a centre back how many others would you have on there? Kante is a box to box so Jorginho would be an obvious one maybe... But I think that list is a relatively good summary as to who were the best performers in that role were over the course of last season yes.
Well, I also think that those stats aren't a useful baromater and I also think that there are better players not included in it for various reasons. For me that makes the list not very useful, while you still agree with it. Fascinating.
 

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Not appealing to me to be honest.

Touchameni(Monaco) / Bissouma / Carmavinga / Brozovic sounds much better options for CDM role than Neves
 

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You’re making me want him now, ultimately I think we need a DM who can first and foremost pass the ball between the lines, and receive the ball under pressure. They also need to have good interception/closing passing lane skills and tackling.
I'm sat staring at 140 DM/CM's stats right now from Premier League, Serie A and La Liga. Here's a few stats, I'm going to put where they rank in brackets next to the stat. I haven't looked at the passing stats in more depth yet, but do have them recoreded. If I can be bothered i'll extend this for Bundesliga and Ligue 1. But it's worth pointing out that these stats are filtered by players having played at least 40% of the season and played in the DM/CM position.

Player Name​
Tackle
Success %​
Tackle
Attempt PM​
Successful
Tackle PM​
Interceptions
PM​
Being
Fouled PM​
Comitting
Fouls PM​
Aerial
Success %​
Unsuccessful
Touches PM​
Dispossessed PM​
Dribble
Success %​
Dribble
Attempt PM​
Successful
Dribble PM​
Rúben Neves​
63.7% (43rd)​
19.3 (12th)
30.4 (13th)
40.8 (8th)
163.2 (129th)
58.0 (76th)​
53.1% (65th)​
100.4 (39th)​
163.2 (40th)​
66.7% (82nd)​
174.1 (126th)
261.1 (127th)
Fred​
58.6% (65th)​
17.1 (6th)
29.2 (9th)
50.6 (25th)
84.3 (82nd)​
55.5 (86th)​
36.4% (125th)
84.3 (58th)​
75.9 (124th)
77.8% (31st)​
84.3 (80th)​
108.4 (69th)​
Scott McTominay​
78.7% (2nd)
33.6 (103rd)​
42.6 (51st)​
75.8 (82nd)​
53.9 (25th)
46.5 (119th)
60.8% (16th)
55.3 (120th)
120.4 (78th)​
71.4% (57th)​
73.1 (69th)​
102.4 (61st)​

*PM = Per Min
Highlighted the font in blue of any stat being in the top 25
Highlighted the font in red of any stat being in the bottom 25
 

8thWonder

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Well, I also think that those stats aren't a useful baromater and I also think that there are better players not included in it for various reasons. For me that makes the list not very useful, while you still agree with it. Fascinating.
I think the ones who I would assume to be there, are, which is interesting. And the ones who I think should be there like Fabinho I can reason why he isn't. So that list would then become useful no?

Bissouma, Rodri, Hojbjerg, Phillips, Soucek, Tielemans have to be there don't they? Who isn't on there as a holding midfielder do you think should be out of interest?
 

L1nk

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Don't think there's anything in this, but for the price quoted, at only 24 years old, he'd be a great additional option to have in midfield, god knows we've lacked real quality in the center of the pitch for many seasons now, we're finally starting to build back up, lets get more in.
 

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The myth that there's a DM in world football that can play behind Pogba and Bruno needs to be eradicated.

Unless that DM is a cement wall across the width of the pitch, it's not gonna happen.
Been saying it all season. Not happening. Was happy to listen to people spout off about oh if only we’d someone decent like Kante everyone would be fine for the first few weeks of the Euros. It just doesn’t hold up. Matic was ok behind them and even then we regularly just gave up the midfield battle. If you want to control games Pogba is luxury. If you want to give him a free role with two behind controlling and mopping up he’s still a luxury but it’s much less likely to get you hit on the counter.
 

8thWonder

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I'm sat staring at 140 DM/CM's stats right now from Premier League, Serie A and La Liga. Here's a few stats, I'm going to put where they rank in brackets next to the stat. I haven't looked at the passing stats in more depth yet, but do have them recoreded. If I can be bothered i'll extend this for Bundesliga and Ligue 1. But it's worth pointing out that these stats are filtered by players having played at least 40% of the season and played in the DM/CM position.

Player Name​
Tackle
Success %​
Tackle
Attempt PM​
Successful
Tackle PM​
Interceptions
PM​
Being
Fouled PM​
Comitting
Fouls PM​
Aerial
Success %​
Unsuccessful
Touches PM​
Dispossessed PM​
Dribble
Success %​
Dribble
Attempt PM​
Successful
Dribble PM​
Rúben Neves​
63.7% (43rd)​
19.3 (12th)
30.4 (13th)
40.8 (8th)
163.2 (129th)
58.0 (76th)​
53.1% (65th)​
100.4 (39th)​
163.2 (40th)​
66.7% (82nd)​
174.1 (126th)
261.1 (127th)
Fred​
58.6% (65th)​
17.1 (6th)
29.2 (9th)
50.6 (25th)
84.3 (82nd)​
55.5 (86th)​
36.4% (125th)
84.3 (58th)​
75.9 (124th)
77.8% (31st)​
84.3 (80th)​
108.4 (69th)​
Scott McTominay​
78.7% (2nd)
33.6 (103rd)​
42.6 (51st)​
75.8 (82nd)​
53.9 (25th)
46.5 (119th)
60.8% (16th)
55.3 (120th)
120.4 (78th)​
71.4% (57th)​
73.1 (69th)​
102.4 (61st)​

*PM = Per Min
Highlighted the font in blue of any stat being in the top 25
Highlighted the font in red of any stat being in the bottom 25
Good work!

Amazed by McTominay being 2nd for tackle success. Which site did you use out of interest?
 

KW2006

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Could be a more important signing than Sancho and Varane. We don't have a midfielder of this kind since Carrick retired.

And this type of midfielder typically become better with experience, they peak rather late.
 

dinostar77

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Could be a more important signing than Sancho and Varane. We don't have a midfielder of this kind since Carrick retired.

And this type of midfielder typically become better with experience, they peak rather late.
How many better passers of the ball are there in his position who are potentially available this summer? DMs with his passing ability are few and far between.

Any midfield trio needs the Passer, Creator, Destroyer triumvirate. Neves would forfill the passer, bruno the creator and we would ideally still need an better Destroyer option than McFred.
 

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I don't know much about this guy but it looks like we would be trading apples for oranges.... Honestly.. Fred, Scott and this guy look interchangeable.
 

largelyworried

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I think the ones who I would assume to be there, are, which is interesting. And the ones who I think should be there like Fabinho I can reason why he isn't. So that list would then become useful no?

Bissouma, Rodri, Hojbjerg, Phillips, Soucek, Tielemans have to be there don't they? Who isn't on there as a holding midfielder do you think should be out of interest?
Just because Fabinho played most of his games at CB last season doesn't mean he's a worse DM than Jonjo Shelvey. If you want to judge how Neves stacks up against the best DMs in the league, you have to have Fabinho, Jorginho etc in the conversation. A list that misses out Kante in the reckoning for best DM is a pretty useless list, irrespective of his role last season.
 

8thWonder

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Just because Fabinho played most of his games at CB last season doesn't mean he's a worse DM than Jonjo Shelvey. If you want to judge how Neves stacks up against the best DMs in the league, you have to have Fabinho, Jorginho etc in the conversation. A list that misses out Kante in the reckoning for best DM is a pretty useless list, irrespective of his role last season.
I get your point with Jorginho and Fabinho, although I’m pretty sure there were a lot of Chelsea fans criticising Jorginho for the majority of last season… Kante hasn’t played the holding role for Chelsea for about 3 years under 3 different managers so I don’t think he’s that relevant here to be honest, although I did mention him earlier myself.
 

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I don't know much about this guy but it looks like we would be trading apples for oranges.... Honestly.. Fred, Scott and this guy look interchangeable.
in my opinion this is another major caf myth that needs to die. We didn’t not win the league because our midfield is the worst out of the top 10 or because we just need to find a better partner to unlock Pogba in a 2. The existing formation and players who played most were obviously the biggest part of the reason we could dig in and dominate games enough to get the various results over the line given our current limitations.

We didn’t win the league or the EL because we drew too many games. Same as last season but last season we were also losing too many. We drew too many games this season mostly because our forwards didn’t click together at any point in time and we were weak on set pieces. That’s still the biggest issue in the team.

We were controlling most of the games that turned out to be draws but were still getting nowhere fast. Hopefully Sancho and a fit Cavani for a whole season can help remedy that situation. We should look a much more dangerous team overal once we sort the dynamic of the attack out for once and for all.

I agree we also need an extra/better controller in there. Fred was dead on his feet and playing injured by the end of the season without any adequate cover so we had to move Pogba back to midfield for the last few games and we all saw how that turned out. It was fine. Nothing more or less. We know what he can and can’t do, he doesn’t really run games or win you possession back but he can pick a difficult pass and drive it forward.

Neves may prove to be a very shrewd signing at the right price but I have doubts. Who wouldn’t. He’s regressed. He’s a decent price for the amount of experience he has though. I’m sure he still has a high enough ceiling to at least be a good squad player here. I’d rather spend 35 on Neves than 70 on Rice.
 
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Who are the available deep lying playmakers exactly?

There really doesn't seem like there is much is there?