Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

Irwin99

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No cancel culture (except for when we ban free speech and prosecute regular people and artists alike for daring not to support the war)
Traditional values based on Christianity and heterosexual marriage (with Putin initiating a genocidal war, having multiple "illegitimate" children and semi-openly cheating on his wife for many years)
Focus on promoting Russian history and culture (historical fakes like 28 Panfilov's men get put into schoolbooks while things like Molotov-Ribbentrop pact or Stalin's repressions gets excluded; most decent contemporary Russian authors fled the country and Russian culture, unsurprisingly, is at its (all-time?) low in terms of popularity abroad)
Two of those aren't things that you can export to other cultures and 'offer' them to other peoples through conquest or aspiration, unlike for instance; Western Liberal values (democracy, free speech etc.) , an economic ideology (be it communism or capitalism), religious fundamentalism (an Islamic state for instance): all of those have a key ideological core that, whether people like them or hate them, is a set of beliefs people can understand. Modern Russia has nothing like that. It's kind of ideologically bankrupt.
 

MTF

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Two of those aren't things that you can export to other cultures and 'offer' them to other peoples through conquest or aspiration, unlike for instance; Western Liberal values (democracy, free speech etc.) , an economic ideology (be it communism or capitalism), religious fundamentalism (an Islamic state for instance): all of those have a key ideological core that, whether people like them or hate them, is a set of beliefs people can understand. Modern Russia has nothing like that. It's kind of ideologically bankrupt.
I'd say Russia's appeal to the world is more defined by what they're against, which is the US, "the West", etc. And there's maybe a bit more receptiveness to this around the world than you might think, mainly because there are a lot of people in developing countries that are resentful of the larger, richer countries, some of which were their former colonizers.

I'm not at all arguing it's a great pitch (it has no overarching coherence) or that it's widely received well, but I just wouldn't fully dismiss how much resentment there is out there.
 

harms

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Two of those aren't things that you can export to other cultures and 'offer' them to other peoples through conquest or aspiration, unlike for instance; Western Liberal values (democracy, free speech etc.) , an economic ideology (be it communism or capitalism), religious fundamentalism (an Islamic state for instance): all of those have a key ideological core that, whether people like them or hate them, is a set of beliefs people can understand. Modern Russia has nothing like that. It's kind of ideologically bankrupt.
Yeah, that’s also my point. Original idea was to aim for the “good old Europe”, meaning mostly nationalistic conservatives, with the anti-liberal anti-immigration pro-religious system, but it kinda blew up after the beginning of the invasion where the Europe (or, rather, the “West”) ended up being Russia’s main antagonist.
 

stefan92

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https://www.nzz.ch/schweiz/panzerwa...in-der-ukraine-beim-rechten-sektor-ld.1731862

Kind of a crazy story and illustrates quite well how complicated some things can be and how rules can be circumvented. As it's in German I give a very short summary:

There are sightings of Eagle armoured reconnaissance vehicles in Ukraine - Switzerland produced them, but never allowed export of these to Ukraine. How did they end up there?

It seems likely that these vehicles (possibly only one, only that single unit is confirmed) was originally exported to Denmark and after the Danish army got rid of it in 2013 they sold 27 of them to FWW in Neubrandenburg/Germany. FWW is a company focused on refurbishing military hardware. It roots back to being a part of the East German army, it was a repair center for (Soviet-made) tanks etc. FWW at the time was owned by an ex-Bundeswehr officer who owns quite a bunch of companies.

Later on he sold FWW to General Dynamics European Land Systems, but according to GDELS the Eagle vehicles weren't part of the deal, so here the official track got lost on them. It's possible that he kept them privately or by using another company and then sold it without permission of either Switzerland or Germany to Ukraine fighters.

So now Ukraine has armoured vehicles made in Switzerland because a shady German businessman (ex-soldier active in the days of the Cold War and probably quite motivated to finally deal some damage to the Russians) doesn't care about the law.
 

VorZakone

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https://www.nzz.ch/schweiz/panzerwa...in-der-ukraine-beim-rechten-sektor-ld.1731862

Kind of a crazy story and illustrates quite well how complicated some things can be and how rules can be circumvented. As it's in German I give a very short summary:

There are sightings of Eagle armoured reconnaissance vehicles in Ukraine - Switzerland produced them, but never allowed export of these to Ukraine. How did they end up there?

It seems likely that these vehicles (possibly only one, only that single unit is confirmed) was originally exported to Denmark and after the Danish army got rid of it in 2013 they sold 27 of them to FWW in Neubrandenburg/Germany. FWW is a company focused on refurbishing military hardware. It roots back to being a part of the East German army, it was a repair center for (Soviet-made) tanks etc. FWW at the time was owned by an ex-Bundeswehr officer who owns quite a bunch of companies.

Later on he sold FWW to General Dynamics European Land Systems, but according to GDELS the Eagle vehicles weren't part of the deal, so here the official track got lost on them. It's possible that he kept them privately or by using another company and then sold it without permission of either Switzerland or Germany to Ukraine fighters.

So now Ukraine has armoured vehicles made in Switzerland because a shady German businessman (ex-soldier active in the days of the Cold War and probably quite motivated to finally deal some damage to the Russians) doesn't care about the law.
What are the chances this shady German businessman gets sued or something?
 

MTF

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https://www.nzz.ch/schweiz/panzerwa...in-der-ukraine-beim-rechten-sektor-ld.1731862

Kind of a crazy story and illustrates quite well how complicated some things can be and how rules can be circumvented. As it's in German I give a very short summary:

There are sightings of Eagle armoured reconnaissance vehicles in Ukraine - Switzerland produced them, but never allowed export of these to Ukraine. How did they end up there?

It seems likely that these vehicles (possibly only one, only that single unit is confirmed) was originally exported to Denmark and after the Danish army got rid of it in 2013 they sold 27 of them to FWW in Neubrandenburg/Germany. FWW is a company focused on refurbishing military hardware. It roots back to being a part of the East German army, it was a repair center for (Soviet-made) tanks etc. FWW at the time was owned by an ex-Bundeswehr officer who owns quite a bunch of companies.

Later on he sold FWW to General Dynamics European Land Systems, but according to GDELS the Eagle vehicles weren't part of the deal, so here the official track got lost on them. It's possible that he kept them privately or by using another company and then sold it without permission of either Switzerland or Germany to Ukraine fighters.

So now Ukraine has armoured vehicles made in Switzerland because a shady German businessman (ex-soldier active in the days of the Cold War and probably quite motivated to finally deal some damage to the Russians) doesn't care about the law.
Not to be too conspiracy minded, but this does seem like something right up CIA's alley. Even potentially letting Switzerland know what they're doing but keeping it all deniable.
 

JuriM

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Politico really dug itself a hole there, with this terrible obvious smear campaign article.

Check all the replies, how our people debunked it in matter of seconds :D

Shows that we have been doing things right. Pushing the right buttons and someone is pissed off enough to run this info operation stated before. I fecking love it!

It was a terrible job enough that everyone threw them under the bus.
 

RedDevilQuebecois

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The man is fecking sick, but so are those many still willing to follow into the bullshit.

Over 7,000 US service members were killed in post-9/11 wars and over 30,000 more died by suicide. Go figure what the numbers of KIA and suicides will look like in comparison in Russia.
 
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stefan92

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What are the chances this shady German businessman gets sued or something?
Very little I think. Switzerland of course is investigating this now, as the delivery clearly was in breach of existing contracts which require Switzerland to approve further exports from Germany for another country. In principle it would also be in breach of German law as Germany needs to approve such exports as well (but likely would have without problems), but the thing is the lack of proof. There is no proof that the Eagle spotted in Ukraine really is out of FWW stock and Ukraine is unlikely to support any investigation on this by handing over details about the vehicle.

So as long as there are no such details available for prosecution there simply is a lack of proof, Thomas Bockhold can simply claim "well that's not my Eagle" and that's it and everybody in Germany would likely be happy if there just isn't much talk about this. It seems to be a Swiss issue, not something Germans really care about, or if they do might silently approve of this action anyway.
 

Bobcat

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Yeah, that’s also my point. Original idea was to aim for the “good old Europe”, meaning mostly nationalistic conservatives, with the anti-liberal anti-immigration pro-religious system, but it kinda blew up after the beginning of the invasion where the Europe (or, rather, the “West”) ended up being Russia’s main antagonist.
Its the same story for any authoritarian state. They are absoloutley dependant on some external threath, real or imagined. If you look back you see that this conditioning has gone on for decades in Russia. They've been fed nonsense about western "degeneracy" for years, its just after the invasion it got ramped up to child eating, peadophile, satanic nazis.

As ridiculous as it sounds, this kind of propaganda is depressingly effective. It builds a narrative of "us and them" and it makes people forget how shite their own lives are
 

VorZakone

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The man is fecking sick, but so are those many still willing to follow into the bullshit.

Over 7,000 US service members were killed in post-9/11 wars and over 30,000 more died by suicide. Go figure what the numbers of KIA and suicides will look like in comparison in Russia.
Between 40,000 and 60,000 dead according to UK estimates.

Elsewhere, UK intelligence officials have estimated that Russian regular forces and Wagner troops may have suffered between 175,000-200,000 casualties - including 40,000-60,000 deaths.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64685428
 

Ragnar123

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The more desperate Russia becomes on the battlefield, the more they talk about nuclear weapons. Prepare for daily nuclear threats when Ukraine launches its offensive and starts to liberate regions.
 

dove

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I am not sure about that one. There are quite a lot of reports about Russians getting really close to the city centre and the general staff confirming their progress.



Interestingly though, just recently (today or yesterday I think) Zelenskyy spoke how important it is to hold Bakhmut which if the situation was really getting bad, I would expect him to do the opposite and downplay the importance of it.
If Bakhmut fell to Russian forces, their president, Vladimir Putin, would “sell this victory to the West, to his society, to China, to Iran,” Zelenskyy said in an exclusive interview with The Associated Press.

“If he will feel some blood — smell that we are weak — he will push, push, push,” Zelenskyy said in English, which he used for virtually all of the interview.

Zelensky’s comments were an acknowledgement that losing the 7-month-long battle for Bakhmut — the longest of the war thus far — would be more of a costly political defeat than a tactical one.

He predicted that the pressure from a defeat in Bakhmut would come quickly — both from the international community and within his own country. “Our society will feel tired,” he said. “Our society will push me to have compromise with them.”
https://apnews.com/article/ukraine-zelenskyy-russia-putin-bakhmut-2334ec3a5b74d3cc3c4e012db71920e5
 
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frostbite

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Yeah, that’s also my point. Original idea was to aim for the “good old Europe”, meaning mostly nationalistic conservatives, with the anti-liberal anti-immigration pro-religious system, but it kinda blew up after the beginning of the invasion where the Europe (or, rather, the “West”) ended up being Russia’s main antagonist.
As you know, the whole thing was supposed to last a few days, and Putin would install a puppet government in Ukraine and the masses would declare him a Master Strategist. Again.

This failed miserably, so they can't find a way out and they spout bullshit (about the Nazis, the West, the gays, whatever)... It means nothing to anyone. The essence of modern Russia is a Mafia State, nothing else.

The real problem is that for a long time, Russians allowed Putin to build this monolithic mafia government, controlling the money, the media, the prisons, and everything else. With every opposition leader that was eliminated, Russia descended further into becoming a Mafia State. Sooner or later another Stalin-like character would appear. If Putin was too soft, someone worse than him would kill him and become the Master Strategist.

It is really unfortunate that the West also allowed that. We saw who Putin is in Chechnya, in Syria, in Georgia, in handling the opposition ... but the Western leaders cared about the money first and foremost.
 

Ragnar123

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Looks like the second mobilization wave, as predicted, is on the way. To keep the people quite, it's officially only for volunteers. But without a doubt they will force to volunteer if necessary.

 

Ventura

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Looks like the second mobilization wave, as predicted, is on the way. To keep the people quite, it's officially only for volunteers. But without a doubt they will force to volunteer if necessary.

Sigh ... send 400,000 more bullets to Ukraine then.
 

Ragnar123

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Who would have thought releasing convicted, war hardened murderers with PTSD back into society wasn't such a good idea after all. If you think Russia finally hit rock bottom, they prove you wrong.
 

Zehner

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Looks like the second mobilization wave, as predicted, is on the way. To keep the people quite, it's officially only for volunteers. But without a doubt they will force to volunteer if necessary.


Wonder what kind of antiquated gear they're digging out to equip them. This is just madness. Putin is crippling Russia for decades to come and there's nothing to gain for them from that war. Even if they succeeded there's no way that would in any way justify the price they paid for it. It is literally insane what they're willing to sacrifice for symbolic victories both in the short and long term.
 

Morty_

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This war wont end in a really, really long time, unless Putin falls out a window.

Even if Ukraine kicks the russians out of the country, Russia will keep launching border attacks, launching missiles and so on.

It could end up something like North and South Korea, who are officially still at war.
 

dove

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This war wont end in a really, really long time, unless Putin falls out a window.

Even if Ukraine kicks the russians out of the country, Russia will keep launching border attacks, launching missiles and so on.

It could end up something like North and South Korea, who are officially still at war.
I think it will not end in a long long time irrespective of Putin falling out of a window. Russia as a nation is so far gone that it would take decades to sober up from the hundreds of years propaganda, and that is assuming their new leader would somehow be different than their former ones which is highly unlikely.
 

Morty_

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I think it will not end in a long long time irrespective of Putin falling out of a window. Russia as a nation is so far gone that it would take decades to sober up from the hundreds of years propaganda, and that is assuming their new leader would somehow be different than their former ones which is highly unlikely.
Russian leadership, and russians at large, don't believe Ukraine is a real country, or that Ukranians are actual people, so you might be right.

Its insane though, that they are willing to go into permanent decline just because of ideology, Russia's demographics were already bad, millions leaving or dying in battle will have dire consequences for them.
 

nickm

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This war wont end in a really, really long time, unless Putin falls out a window.

Even if Ukraine kicks the russians out of the country, Russia will keep launching border attacks, launching missiles and so on.

It could end up something like North and South Korea, who are officially still at war.
Possibly. Personally I think if Ukraine is able to push the Russians out this year, maybe take Crimea back, Putin's out the window. Too many losses and losers, in people, prestige, materiel and assets. And Putin won't be able to promise that things will get better given his economy is being slowly suffocated. All those losses, all for nothing, and it'll never improve while he is leader. He's done. Kadyrov or some other chancer with a power base and who fancies his chances, will do him.
 

Morty_

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Possibly. Personally I think if Ukraine is able to push the Russians out this year, maybe take Crimea back, Putin's out the window. Too many losses and losers, in people, prestige, materiel and assets. And Putin won't be able to promise that things will get better given his economy is being slowly suffocated. All those losses, all for nothing, and it'll never improve while he is leader. He's done. Kadyrov or some other chancer with a power base and who fancies his chances, will do him.
Isn't Crimea an unrealistic target this year, for a number of reasons?
But they could cut it off, blow up the bridge and leave them to fend for themselves.