Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

Ragnar123

Full Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2021
Messages
1,415
Supports
Barcelona
It becomes clearer each day, that the russian winter offensive is more or less over. Their losses in soldiers have been halved and in armor even less than half over the last few weeks average.
And the best thing is, they gained absolutely nothing from it. They wanted to capture the eastern towns before Ukraine's offensive to have a strong front line and all they have achieved are a few streets and villages here and there. A certain someone won't be happy with those results. If I were Gerasimov, I wouldn't open my windows.
 
Last edited:

TwoSheds

More sheds (and tiles) than you, probably
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
Messages
12,951
It becomes clearer each day, that the russian winter offensive is more or less over. Their losses in soldiers have been halved and in armor even less than half over the last few weeks average.
And the best thing is, they gained absolutely nothing from it. They wanted to capture the eastern towns before Ukraine's offensive to have a strong front line and all they have achieved are a few streets and villages here and there. A certain someone won't be happy with those results. If I were Gerasimov, I wouldn't open my windows.
Well in fairness it sounds like Bakhmut at least is still in a difficult spot so I don't think you could be confident it's absolutely nothing, but compared to the number of men and amount of money and equipment that must have been thrown at it, it's a true embarrassment.
 

Ragnar123

Full Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2021
Messages
1,415
Supports
Barcelona
Well in fairness it sounds like Bakhmut at least is still in a difficult spot so I don't think you could be confident it's absolutely nothing, but compared to the number of men and amount of money and equipment that must have been thrown at it, it's a true embarrassment.
Of course, the situation is still difficult in many regions, not just Bakhmut. But their offensive along the whole front has eased considerably looking at their daily losses. Their goal was to capture at least the Donbas towns Bakhmut and Avdiivka, straighten the front and get in better positions to receive Ukraine's coming offensive. In that goal, they failed miserably so far. I'm curious how long Putin will allow Gerasimov to fail on the battlefield. Especially because the only ones who are gaining some ground right now are again Wagners in southern Bakhmut.
 

dove

New Member
Joined
May 15, 2013
Messages
7,899
Every time I watch videos from their tv shows it cracks me up, it's like watching stuff from some parallel universe. One day they nuke everyone, another day they liberate their "brotherly" neighbours. Sometimes it's so ridiculous even they are like "Grand plans. Good luck!" :lol:

 

goalscholes

New Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2021
Messages
904
Gosh, Macron is deluded AF.
I once had high hopes for him. He's turned to be such a feckless disappointment.
Personally, I disagree.

Having dialogue and offering opportunities/ avenues for compromise with people you don’t agree with is important. Especially given we’re moving closer and closer to another Cold War (if we’re not in one already).

At the very least, France can say they’ve tried. If China’s views don’t change, little has been lost.
 

the hea

Full Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2011
Messages
6,327
Location
North of the wall
Of course, the situation is still difficult in many regions, not just Bakhmut. But their offensive along the whole front has eased considerably looking at their daily losses. Their goal was to capture at least the Donbas towns Bakhmut and Avdiivka, straighten the front and get in better positions to receive Ukraine's coming offensive. In that goal, they failed miserably so far. I'm curious how long Putin will allow Gerasimov to fail on the battlefield. Especially because the only ones who are gaining some ground right now are again Wagners in southern Bakhmut.
I think what's more important than who controlls Bakhmut and Avdiivka is how much of their reserves the Ukrainians have used to defend these places, that could be the key to how succesfull their comming offensive will be.
Russias winter offensive have been a massive failure when it comes to conquering land but if they have forced Ukraine to use a large part of their reserves this winter it will not have been a complete failure. The comming months will be extremly important and will decide how the rest of this war plays out.
 

RedDevilQuebecois

Full Member
Joined
May 27, 2021
Messages
8,060
Having dialogue and offering opportunities/ avenues for compromise with people you don’t agree with is important. Especially given we’re moving closer and closer to another Cold War (if we’re not in one already).

At the very least, France can say they’ve tried. If China’s views don’t change, little has been lost.
The real question I have about Macron is: Why is he so eager to give Putin an off-ramp right now instead of waiting to see how things would unfold in Russia should Ukraine gain more land and perhaps retake Crimea in the upcoming offensive?

Honestly, what is the worst that can happen if Russia loses most if not all remnants of their occupation in Ukraine? I don't see why a French president would be concerned about possible scenarios following that context.

Anyway, it's also stupid to ask for China to change their minds when they are currently issueing threats to the EU after Ursula von der Leyen's recent speech.
 

4bars

Full Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2016
Messages
4,864
Supports
Barcelona
I think you're being very naive about just how much Russia will use its sportspeople for propoganda. It's doesn't matter how nice or decent the individuals are. You're enabling the regime by allowing them to play. Moreover, as said above, you're telling people in countries affected by this (not just Ukraine) that they should play nice with the people attacking them.
There are other ways. As i said, triage is possible. Also. As i said there is not only elite sports there are kids and teenagers that they are just starting and there would not be propaganda on those
 

4bars

Full Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2016
Messages
4,864
Supports
Barcelona
My point is there isn't a big red button that he can press. Others have to take decision along a chain of command. Those people know that escalation is not in anybody's best interests - the end game is that nobody can win. Mutually Assured Destruction is real and its probably the reason we had relative peace since WW2.
And i understand what you mean. But nobody wins means that if you dont win, losing the war and most likely the presidency and even you life (or other people their position of power and their life), you might not want that the other wins and give them a huge feck you. But again is me, and my opinion. Not what it has to happen
 

4bars

Full Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2016
Messages
4,864
Supports
Barcelona
This. Feck those Russians. All of them. If they want to participate in civilized society then behave in a civilized manner.
every single Russian should feel the repercussions of their stupid invasion of Ukraine.,
Oh sudenly now sport is important for propaganda. Thought sport didnt matter

So feck people because others were assholes. feck mobilized russians that dont want to be drafted. feck russian NGOs, feck reporters and politicians that are in prison criticizing putin. After all they are russian and they have to pay.Very sensitive
 

McGrathsipan

Dawn’s less famous husband
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
24,696
Location
Dublin
It becomes clearer each day, that the russian winter offensive is more or less over. Their losses in soldiers have been halved and in armor even less than half over the last few weeks average.
And the best thing is, they gained absolutely nothing from it. They wanted to capture the eastern towns before Ukraine's offensive to have a strong front line and all they have achieved are a few streets and villages here and there. A certain someone won't be happy with those results. If I were Gerasimov, I wouldn't open my windows.
Is that basically saying Russian dead is almost 174000?
 

4bars

Full Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2016
Messages
4,864
Supports
Barcelona
The real question I have about Macron is: Why is he so eager to give Putin an off-ramp right now instead of waiting to see how things would unfold in Russia should Ukraine gain more land and perhaps retake Crimea in the upcoming offensive?

Honestly, what is the worst that can happen if Russia loses most if not all remnants of their occupation in Ukraine? I don't see why a French president would be concerned about possible scenarios following that context.

Anyway, it's also stupid to ask for China to change their minds when they are currently issueing threats to the EU after Ursula von der Leyen's recent speech.
Macron is seeking attention and gain popularity to be seen as the facilitator and the instrument of solving the conflict in any way possible and he just looked like a moron so far
 

dove

New Member
Joined
May 15, 2013
Messages
7,899
Lost for words that the Russian public think this is OK.
Mind boggling number of wasted lives. Its like civil genocide.
I would think (or at least hope) that they wouldn't be okay if they knew those numbers but this is obviously a very sensitive information that is being kept secret. According to them there is like 1k dead Ukrainians for 1 dead Russian.
 

Ekkie Thump

Full Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2013
Messages
3,892
Supports
Leeds United
I would think (or at least hope) that they wouldn't be okay if they knew those numbers but this is obviously a very sensitive information that is being kept secret. According to them there is like 1k dead Ukrainians for 1 dead Russian.
I would think if they knew the cost they might redouble their support tbh. Heroic deaths fighting the forces of evil in a new Great Patriotic War, etc. Just depends on how tight the Kremlin's grip on the public consciousness is. I'd be willing to bet it's quite high.

Also, I think most recruits are ethnic minorities from unheard of towns in the depths of the Russian wastes. Don't think the nip of death has really been felt in the great population centres yet.
Overall I think Russia could lose a million more and still keep it up.
 

langster

Captain Stink mouth, so soppy few pints very wow!
Scout
Joined
Jun 28, 2014
Messages
21,582
Location
My brain can't get pregnant!

I absolutely despise this type of video/reporting or whatever you want to call it. The loud music, the thumbs up, the whole feel of the video makes me cringe and also very sad.

I get it's a modern world, I get that social media is used in ways that many don't even know, or understand. But this type of propaganda is just sick. People are dying in these films, but they are dying to a soundtrack and in a video designed to gain support and to boost morale. I just find it all disturbing that people's lives and a war where war crimes and atrocities are being carried out every single minute of the day are being used in something that looks like a cross between an MTV video and an advert for the latest Call Of Duty.

I just think when things so serious and important are reduced in such a way that it's so sad that we have become as desensitized to genocide as we are with school shootings.

That says a lot about us as a species.
 

TwoSheds

More sheds (and tiles) than you, probably
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
Messages
12,951
I absolutely despise this type of video/reporting or whatever you want to call it. The loud music, the thumbs up, the whole feel of the video makes me cringe and also very sad.

I get it's a modern world, I get that social media is used in ways that many don't even know, or understand. But this type of propaganda is just sick. People are dying in these films, but they are dying to a soundtrack and in a video designed to gain support and to boost morale. I just find it all disturbing that people's lives and a war where war crimes and atrocities are being carried out every single minute of the day are being used in something that looks like a cross between an MTV video and an advert for the latest Call Of Duty.

I just think when things so serious and important are reduced in such a way that it's so sad that we have become as desensitized to genocide as we are with school shootings.

That says a lot about us as a species.
I get what you're saying and I find them a bit weird and repellent as well but...it's war propaganda. What sort of content are you expecting? It's hardly going to be a nuanced intellectual debate about the history of Russo-Ukrainian relations accompanied by a delicate evaluation of the Russian national psyche. It's meant to be easy to understand good Vs evil Marvel comic book stuff.
 

Raoul

Admin
Staff
Joined
Aug 14, 1999
Messages
130,152
Location
Hollywood CA
I absolutely despise this type of video/reporting or whatever you want to call it. The loud music, the thumbs up, the whole feel of the video makes me cringe and also very sad.

I get it's a modern world, I get that social media is used in ways that many don't even know, or understand. But this type of propaganda is just sick. People are dying in these films, but they are dying to a soundtrack and in a video designed to gain support and to boost morale. I just find it all disturbing that people's lives and a war where war crimes and atrocities are being carried out every single minute of the day are being used in something that looks like a cross between an MTV video and an advert for the latest Call Of Duty.

I just think when things so serious and important are reduced in such a way that it's so sad that we have become as desensitized to genocide as we are with school shootings.

That says a lot about us as a species.
They are a bit cringey, but there is also a propaganda value to these in the social media era. ISIS were the first to invest in digital with their drone videos, the public burning of the Jordanian pilot etc. To many Ukrainians, there must be a certain satisfaction about the spectacle of killing enemy invaders.
 

Raoul

Admin
Staff
Joined
Aug 14, 1999
Messages
130,152
Location
Hollywood CA
Replace Russia with USA/Israel and Ukraine with Iraq/Palestine and you have the classic terrorist rhetoric. But since it's Russia it's perfectly reasonable to have this for of thinking.
Except you can't simply "replace Russia" since each situation is completely different and therefore not interchangeably comparable.
 

dove

New Member
Joined
May 15, 2013
Messages
7,899
I absolutely despise this type of video/reporting or whatever you want to call it. The loud music, the thumbs up, the whole feel of the video makes me cringe and also very sad.

I get it's a modern world, I get that social media is used in ways that many don't even know, or understand. But this type of propaganda is just sick. People are dying in these films, but they are dying to a soundtrack and in a video designed to gain support and to boost morale. I just find it all disturbing that people's lives and a war where war crimes and atrocities are being carried out every single minute of the day are being used in something that looks like a cross between an MTV video and an advert for the latest Call Of Duty.

I just think when things so serious and important are reduced in such a way that it's so sad that we have become as desensitized to genocide as we are with school shootings.

That says a lot about us as a species.
That's exactly what it is. Most of the content is made for Ukrainians and if you think they should feel sad seeing Russians dying, you are very mistaken.
 

Raoul

Admin
Staff
Joined
Aug 14, 1999
Messages
130,152
Location
Hollywood CA
Wondering how accurate the total amounts Russians have of each group. Destroyed counts should be fairly accurate as a big % of it is visually confirmed.

Already more dead than in every other post WW2 conflict combined.

I've hard time believing the KIA number is this low. I would expect it to be well over 100-150k.

 

dove

New Member
Joined
May 15, 2013
Messages
7,899
Already more dead than in every other post WW2 conflict combined.

I've hard time believing the KIA number is this low. I would expect it to be well over 100-150k.

Yea, something is off. I have always assumed that Ukraine MoD reported a combined count of killed & injured (taken out of action) Russians, which is over 170k. However we have seen the US and UK intelligence suggesting that number to be around 220k. I see no reason why Ukrainians would report it as lower, it would be higher if anything. I wonder if their MoD reports deaths only there (probably quite inflated number) because I would also expect it to be over 100k.
 

Organic Potatoes

Full Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2013
Messages
17,154
Location
85R723R2+R6
Supports
Colorado Rapids
Yea, something is off. I have always assumed that Ukraine MoD reported a combined count of killed & injured (taken out of action) Russians, which is over 170k. However we have seen the US and UK intelligence suggesting that number to be around 220k. I see no reason why Ukrainians would report it as lower, it would be higher if anything. I wonder if their MoD reports deaths only there (probably quite inflated number) because I would also expect it to be over 100k.
I thought "liquidated" was KIA and that's why UA's numbers were controversial as they looked way too high?
 

Raoul

Admin
Staff
Joined
Aug 14, 1999
Messages
130,152
Location
Hollywood CA
Yea, something is off. I have always assumed that Ukraine MoD reported a combined count of killed & injured (taken out of action) Russians, which is over 170k. However we have seen the US and UK intelligence suggesting that number to be around 220k. I see no reason why Ukrainians would report it as lower, it would be higher if anything. I wonder if their MoD reports deaths only there (probably quite inflated number) because I would also expect it to be over 100k.
I got it from a LawFareBlog article, which was made a few weeks ago, which would've suggested the numbers would've been relatively up to date....or perhaps not.

https://www.lawfareblog.com/bloody-toll-russias-war-ukraine
 

Raoul

Admin
Staff
Joined
Aug 14, 1999
Messages
130,152
Location
Hollywood CA
Personally, I disagree.

Having dialogue and offering opportunities/ avenues for compromise with people you don’t agree with is important. Especially given we’re moving closer and closer to another Cold War (if we’re not in one already).

At the very least, France can say they’ve tried. If China’s views don’t change, little has been lost.
It is, until one realizes it is part of Putin's strategy to create an illusion of negotiations for the consumption of Russian and European publics, so that it alleviates a bit of pressure back home and dupes Europeans into believing their politicians can resolve the war if they simply negotiated harder. Neither is of course the case since Putin has no plans on leaving Ukraine and the Ukrainians have no plans on ceding any of their territory to a fascist, totalitarian dictator.

Therefore Macron is simply playing the role of the useful idiot.
 

RedDevilQuebecois

Full Member
Joined
May 27, 2021
Messages
8,060
It is, until one realizes it is part of Putin's strategy to create an illusion of negotiations for the consumption of Russian and European publics, so that it alleviates a bit of pressure back home and dupes Europeans into believing their politicians can resolve the war if they simply negotiated harder. Neither is of course the case since Putin has no plans on leaving Ukraine and the Ukrainians have no plans on ceding any of their territory to a fascist, totalitarian dictator.

Therefore Macron is simply playing the role of the useful idiot.
Since the very beginning of this war, Macron has shown a strange inclination at offering any kind of off-ramp for Putin any way or another. What advantage is there for France to do that? Another way of spinning the question would be: What is the worst that can happen (from a French perspective) if Russia loses most if not all remnants of their occupation in Ukraine?

What would happen to Putin and to Russia in the event that Ukraine finish the job in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine is not something that anyone should be concerned about at the moment. The energy Armageddon that Russia promised against Europe for supporting Ukraine has not happened at all this winter. Meanwhile, China has been spending their time threatening the EU after Ursula von der Leyen's most recent speech in Brussels. The timing cannot be any poorer for Macron.
 

VorZakone

What would Kenny G do?
Joined
May 9, 2013
Messages
32,886
Perhaps, but if this was Russia doing it people would be laughing at them for using ancient equipment.
Might as well use it though if needed
Expectations for Russian vs Ukrainian military strength aren't necessarily the same though.
 

ExoduS

Full Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2006
Messages
2,605
Location
Serbia
Perhaps, but if this was Russia doing it people would be laughing at them for using ancient equipment.
Might as well use it though if needed
When Russia uses old equipment: Russians are losers on the verge of the defeat.

When Ukraine uses old equipment: Ukrainians are creative and resourceful geniuses for putting old stuff to use.

But I'm not sure of that post about old Soviet weapons used by Ukrainians . Maybe just April fool's joke. Ukrainians supposedly have most modern NATO stuff and all the intelligence that comes with it.