Don't forget the point also includes Europe having to put another 100 billion into the fund, only to then have it controlled by Russia and the US. It's beyond insane.
Russian invasion of Ukraine
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He's probably had nothing to do with it tbf. Its left to the other mob money launderer, I mean err New York real estate businessman.I don't know why some are taking it more seriously than the last one Putin tried to push by way of the Trump administration. Interestingly, Trump just said if the plan doesn't go forward then "I guess they'll just continue fighting".
That's precisely what it sounded like. Trump knew little about the proposal because he apparently outsourced it to Witkoff and Vance.
Grifters gonna grift.
Russia is winning because they took 100sqkm in a few months is like arguing the US/Coalition were winning Afghanistan in 2018 because the Taliban were reduced to fighting amidst the mountains and rural sparse lands.
Russia have taken about 1% of Ukraine in the last 3 years at the cost of around 500,000 men. How much more do you think they can afford to take?
@Jev
You are aware that wars are not won based on amount of land taken and numbers on a spreadsheet of troop strength right?
Otherwise US would have never lost a war in the 20th century and they did plenty of times.
You are aware that wars are not won based on amount of land taken and numbers on a spreadsheet of troop strength right?
Otherwise US would have never lost a war in the 20th century and they did plenty of times.
Piece on Putin envoy Dmitriev. Includes a detail that a school friend of his in Ukraine joined the Ukrainian army and was wounded.
I can't see Ukraine, or Europe accepting the plan in its current state. It offers nothing to safeguard the country, and they'll be losing too much land to Russia.
The sentence "it is expected that Russia will not invade its neighbours and that Nato will not expand further" can be used by Russia for anything Russia decide is an expansion, it's essentially a complete capitulation.
The sentence "it is expected that Russia will not invade its neighbours and that Nato will not expand further" can be used by Russia for anything Russia decide is an expansion, it's essentially a complete capitulation.
There's growing pushback from the EU/NATO and US Congress over the plan today. Suspect it will either get shot down or severely amended to be far more favorable to Ukraine, which will result in Putin rejecting it.
Having looked at that proposal, I can only think the point of it is for Russia to pretend they actually has the upper hand. Its laughable. Its not serious.
Not serious indeed. The previous Trump peace plans were preposterous as well and rejected.
This one, the inclusion of Europe giving a 100 billion to the US/Russia takes the cake. I‘m not sure what the point of including it is. Except maybe Putin and Trump are batshit crazy.
This one, the inclusion of Europe giving a 100 billion to the US/Russia takes the cake. I‘m not sure what the point of including it is. Except maybe Putin and Trump are batshit crazy.
McFaul nails it here. The reason for Putin's behavior isn't NATO expansion - its the threat that Democracy could expand towards Russia.
Do you think things are going Ukraine’s way at the moment when taking the full picture into account? I’m not saying this plan is good for Ukraine, it’s obviously not, and they shouldn’t accept it as it is now. I’m saying there are some concessions that might make it the least bad outcome for Ukraine if they can negotiate some of the points. If Europe and the US were willing to increase their support, I think Ukraine could eventually win the war of attrition, but the situation, by all accounts, is that Ukraine are low on money, low on troops, and low on morale, US have pulled the plug on their support, and Europe’s resolve is weakening in some countries. I don’t think much is pointing towards things getting better for Ukraine within the next year or two. It’s disgusting that Trump is trying to force this plan on them, but if the alternative is US blocking military sales to Ukraine via Europe, then their best hand might be to play along here and see if they can negotiate this a bit more their favour. And that’s where I’m just saying that there are some Russian concessions in there that might make it realistically the best deal Ukraine are going to get, provided they can get rid of a couple of red flags.
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This is bribery of the highest order by the US. As usual Trump is only interested in what works for himself and he doesn't give a sh1t about Ukraine or its people.
There can only be concessions if Trump and the US try to force them on Russia. But that is highly unlikely. Even worse, the whole of Europe is neither strong enough or resolute enough to have much effect.
I am appalled at both the US and Europe and Putin will become even stronger as a result.
Whether NATO decides to admit Ukraine is a decision for NATO and Ukraine and nothing to do with Russia. It doesn't need Russian permission and should make sure that Russia understands that very clearly.
This is the whole issue.
What actually needs to be done, and what Europe and US are doing are two different things.
That is why I don't really have much optimism about how Russian agression ends.
If they legitimize taking Donetsk, Crimea and Lugansk and get accepted back into international fold without broader consequences, then they will definitely have gotten much more out of their invasion than Ukraine.
Ukraine's allies have simply not done enough.
Quite agree.
Putin knows that all he needs to do is to stay in the game long enough for Ukraine allies to get fed up with supporting them.
And if the US is gullible enough to believe anything Putin agrees to in order to justify the war domestically, then he will have got pretty much everything he reasonably wants.
And of course, Ukraine, Europe, NATO and the US will have not only lost, but will have been dictated to by Russia.
And yet, Russia has performed badly in this war. As has Russian military hardware and the Russian military in general. Putin policy of staying in the war is a double edged sword. And the Russian economy has been struggling as a result.
If the US plan is agreed to, this will be like being gifted Russia victory from the jaws of defeat.
Meanwhile the death toll of the attack on Ternopil this week has risen to 32 with dozens more wounded.
https://kyivindependent.com/rescue-...rike-in-western-ternopil-22-remain-26-killed/
But it would mean Europe no longer needs to donate tens of billions to Ukraine (if peace deal is signed and the conflict is concluded), then these monies could be spent on European economy instead. Don’t you think it could be beneficial?
No. Because if you legitimize conquest via war, that means another war is coming. All the peace since the 2nd world war is gone. Now you have a warmongering, largest nation in the world with richest natural resources, even closer to EU. US has proven themselves to be an unreliable ally at best. So, what stops russia from attacking baltics in 5 years? Or 10? Do you think Russia (an its leaders) will suddenly be peace-loving nation not looking to expand? Once Russia leader's popularity declines due to aftermath of this war, well there is one proven way to increase your popularity. War. If anything, we will need to spend MORE on security. What happens if Russia indeed invades the baltics? Will US defend them? What if US is tied up with China over Taiwan (and China is looking carefully what is happening in Ukraine). Are French and German soldiers going to defend the Baltics?
You may think that Russia will settle with just Donbass, even though their rhetoric suggests otherwise. You might claim that rhetoric is irrelevant, but history teaches us that war-conquering countries do not stop with expansion until they are defeated on battlefield or collapse due to internal strife. Nobody sane wants russia to collapse and break apart.
Also you may think if it comes to war between EU and Russia, that EU has the advantage as Russia has failed to perform well in Ukraine. While the latter is true, the former probably isn't. EU countries have NO war experience for almost a century. Russia will learn and already has learned how to wage war.
Who knows, maybe I'm wrong. But if Russia is stopped now in Ukraine, then we don't have to worry if I'm wrong. But even if I'm wrong and Russia never decides to attack baltics, EU will still have to spend massively on defense because we don't know. We have to be ready.
In this situation, most likely, Taiwan will be taken over. But then again, it’s about USA vs China, Europe has nothing to do about it
Yes, but if USA is tied up with China, then USA won't help or be a deterrent against Russia. Which means we can not rely on USA for protection like we did so far. We must invest in weapons. We only have a choice to give those weapons to Ukraine so it can stop Russia or keep them for ourselves in case Russia decides to expand again. However, abandoning investment in weapons and armies to benefit economy would be extremely short sighted.
Is that the world we want to live in though?
It’s virtually improbable Russia decides to expand outside “Russian speaking territories”. And there are not many of those in Europe anyway
I don’t think Russia will stop at Ukraine and that money in Europe is not going to go on anything other than making sure its militaries are ready. It’s sad but it is what it is.
Why?
Why? They used to own Poland not so long ago, why wouldn't that be in their sights?
Why would Russian expansion into "Russian speaking territories" be acceptable anyway?
Fightin' words from Estonia. Suspect this sentiment will spread to other countries as well, especially those the Russians have recently interfered in (Poland etc).
The discussion ignores the fundamental question: is Putin still aiming to install a pro-Russian government in Kyiv and thereby erase Ukrainian sovereignty? If yes, then peace is still far away.
Russia won't attack Poland. IMO talks of Poland being in Russia's sights are irrelevant.
But it’s a different question. Just not a big deal in the grand scheme of things, unlike Taiwan, for instance - Taiwan is a pinnacle of world’s semiconductors production, and hence its importance is critical globally.
We all believed the same for Ukraine. Didn't we? Didn't german intelligence claim there is no proof Russia will attack Ukraine as far as late 2021 and early 2022. Considering how russia has been behaving last decade, do you think, if they do not reform it's completely out of the realm of possibilities that they will attack poland in 20? 30 years. You may think Putin will not be alive, but who will be his successor. You may not concern your self with that time span. How about baltics in the next 10 years? Do you think it's unreasonable that Russia would attack them?
If Putin took all of Ukraine, he would simply use it as a staging point to foment trouble in eastern Europe. He's already doing that now to some extent in Poland, so just imagine how much easier it would be if he could use western Ukraine as a staging point from which to launch his operations. The goal being to undermine eastern European democracy and where possible, foment revolutions from within so that more eastern European states have Orban like governments that are sympathetic to Putin.
Why is that improbable now? They invaded Ukraine to take control of the whole country originally. I don't see why their takeaway from this war would be to only target Russian-speaking territories going forward.
Also, there are many people speaking Russia in the rest of Ukraine and in the Baltic states. (Minorities, but still significant populations.) If Putin does need a Russian-language pretext, it's right there all the same.
Poland is a NATO member and has an even stronger military than pre-invasion Ukraine. Russians would die in even bigger numbers if they entered Poland.
Ukraine is not in NATO.
For the record, I also thought Putin wouldn't invade Ukraine. I really did think that. The fact he did it anyway woke me up so to say. But it is my view that talks of Poland getting attacked are distracting from other more urgent questions. Such as Putin's current intentions, Western unity and resolve, and Europe's growing irrelevance.
Highly unlikely Hitler wants anything other than Czechoslovakia.
Never seen Branson weigh in on international politics like this. Not sure how much sway he has, but interesting nonetheless.
Russia needs to be put down, there is no other acceptable outcome. They invaded a sovereign nation without reason twice and so far, are getting away with it.
There are no compromises to be made that will guarantee long term security for Europe and Ukraine.
We‘ve tried before and it did not work.
Europe needs to go all in supporting Ukraine, and feck the US. Trump will be a lame duck or dead in 2028.
There are no compromises to be made that will guarantee long term security for Europe and Ukraine.
We‘ve tried before and it did not work.
Europe needs to go all in supporting Ukraine, and feck the US. Trump will be a lame duck or dead in 2028.