Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

stefan92

Full Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2021
Messages
5,932
Supports
Hannover 96
This is a pipe dream though, a leader even if its not Putin that gives back annexed territories . Its not happening.
I wouldn't be so sure about it, but I admit that currently it's unlikely. Nonetheless these (@Rajma did a good job defining it further) are necessary requirements. If Russia doesn't accept these they will stay the pariah of the World and that's it.
 

Raoul

Admin
Staff
Joined
Aug 14, 1999
Messages
129,962
Location
Hollywood CA
On the bright side, if Putin falls, chances are Russia will get a brand new government and constitution which will negate anything currently in place.
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
27,952
Location
Moscow
This is a pipe dream though, a leader even if its not Putin that gives back annexed territories . Its not happening.
I'd imagine that any leader that follows Putin would be extremely interested in redoing the damage that Putin did to Russia and it's economy (even leaving aside stuff like international reputation etc.). And giving back annexed territories (or a claim on them — it's not an unlikely scenario that Ukraine would actually be in control of them at that point) would be one of the key points in any sanction-relief deal.

It's not like Russian people dreamt of annexing Kherson or Donetsk for years — in fact, even a lot of those who support the war are/were very skeptical about it due to the simple question of money. Hence why you won't see any vote in Russia itself that would ask people the question of "do you want those territories to become a part of Russia?".
 

VorZakone

What would Kenny G do?
Joined
May 9, 2013
Messages
32,617
It seems like Minsk will be liberated soon:
Would the Belarussian military tolerate getting involved though?

And if true, I reckon we'd see more official Western reports about it.
 

Raoul

Admin
Staff
Joined
Aug 14, 1999
Messages
129,962
Location
Hollywood CA
It seems like Minsk will be liberated soon:
I don't think Lukashenko can do anything if sanctioned by NATO. He is after all a dictator, and is therefore going to be all in on collaborating with Putin since much of his power and autonomy are derived by Putin allowing him to remain in power.
 

Rajma

Full Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2012
Messages
8,571
Location
Lithuania
I don't think Lukashenko can do anything if sanctioned by NATO. He is after all a dictator, and is therefore going to be all in on collaborating with Putin since much of his power and autonomy are derived by Putin allowing him to remain in power.
Belarus has been de facto occupied by Russia already since 2020, thus all sanctions that are applied to Russia should extend to them too. As you say he’s now a governor of Belarus oblast and is fully dependent on Putin and as such doesn’t have any room for maneuver no more.
 

B20

HEY EVERYONE I IGNORE SOMEONE LOOK AT ME
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
Messages
27,546
Location
Disney Land
Supports
Liverpool
Well yes of course there will be, should be and arguably already has to be. The world needs to give Russia a perspective how to be integrated again, similar to like Germany was after WW2. After WW1 the opposite happened and then WW2 happened...

Obviously that has to require Russia to take responsibility for the atrocities and damage done, but we should make this offer to prevent them from becoming the next North Korea, for the sake of humanity. A heavily sanctioned fascist regime which hates the rest of the world and sits on a huge amount of nuclear weapons isn't what I want to see in the future.
This is the point of divergence. Germany was re-integrated because they surrendered unconditionally and a proper internal reckoning was had.

That will not happen in Russia.
 

Real Name

Full Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2020
Messages
14,133
Location
Croatia
I'd have to ask 2 of my friends who are pro-russian and who claimed that Russia attacked Ukraine cause they were provoked by Americans if they changed their stance. Probably not and probably they'll claim Russia annexed Ukrainian territories cause they were provoked... I'm avoiding them in a big circle.
 

stefan92

Full Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2021
Messages
5,932
Supports
Hannover 96
This article in the WP says it will take "a few years" to build and deliver the 18 Himars to Ukraine. What's the fecking point then? The US stocks can't be so low that they have to build them first. Ukraine can't win if these things take years.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/09/28/himars-ukraine/
Ukraine has made several deals already for the next years, this fits right into it. It ensures that they will have a NATO standard army after war, and if the war should take years that they will have a steady influx of new systems.
 

Rajma

Full Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2012
Messages
8,571
Location
Lithuania
I still do not see enough deterrence against nuclear deployment from Russia. It should be made really clear that any attempt will result in the complete destruction of Russia. This weakness will be exploited again and with every day that western leaders remain non-commital the likelihood that’s going to be used by Russia increases. That’s the only language those drug addicts in Kremlin get.
 
Last edited:

Raoul

Admin
Staff
Joined
Aug 14, 1999
Messages
129,962
Location
Hollywood CA
I still do not see enough deterrence against nuclear deployment from Russia. It should be made really clear that any attempt will result in the complete destruction of Russia. This weakness will be exploited again and with every day that western leaders remain non-commital the likelihood that’s going to be used by Russia increases. That’s the only language those drug addicts in Kremlin get.
This sort of thing will have been conveyed privately, not in public.
 

Spark

Full Member
Joined
Jan 13, 2012
Messages
2,223
I'd have to ask 2 of my friends who are pro-russian and who claimed that Russia attacked Ukraine cause they were provoked by Americans if they changed their stance. Probably not and probably they'll claim Russia annexed Ukrainian territories cause they were provoked... I'm avoiding them in a big circle.
I have the same issue. Two mates who just think this is purely the fault of NATO/US. Mainly stemming from “overthrowing the democratically elected president of Ukraine in 2014” which forced Putin to do what he did. All a load of gash about how we should negotiate with Putin for peace and “stop using Ukrainians as pawns”.

Does. My. fecking. Nut.
 

Sarni

nice guy, unassuming, objective United fan.
Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Messages
57,439
Location
Krakow
I'd have to ask 2 of my friends who are pro-russian and who claimed that Russia attacked Ukraine cause they were provoked by Americans if they changed their stance. Probably not and probably they'll claim Russia annexed Ukrainian territories cause they were provoked... I'm avoiding them in a big circle.
Plenty of idiots like that around here these days too, pretty much the same morons who were antivax and all before - though I must say even within that group (antivax/denialists) most are still anti-Russian anyway. There is only so much traction online Russian propaganda can get.
 

frostbite

Full Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2021
Messages
3,122
Plenty of idiots like that around here these days too, pretty much the same morons who were antivax and all before - though I must say even within that group (antivax/denialists) most are still anti-Russian anyway. There is only so much traction online Russian propaganda can get.
Do you mean Poland? Are there pro-Russian and anti-Ukrainian people in Poland today???
 
Last edited:

Sarni

nice guy, unassuming, objective United fan.
Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Messages
57,439
Location
Krakow
Do you mean Poland? Are there pro-Russian and anti-Ukrainian people in Poland today???
There are some. It’s a small minority and the political party that tries to spread anti-Ukrainian/pro-Russian sentiments has gone from polling at 10-11% to 5-6% but it is nonetheless concerning that they exist at all. And they do tend to make a lot of noise, like all idiots.
 

Real Name

Full Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2020
Messages
14,133
Location
Croatia
How much does annexing territories change in the grand scheme of things. Putin said attacking here will be treated like attack on Russia, but there were some explosions in Russia already and in Crimea too.

I hope this doesn't mean a potential move further to them using nuclear weapons, even tactical.
 

Real Name

Full Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2020
Messages
14,133
Location
Croatia
I have the same issue. Two mates who just think this is purely the fault of NATO/US. Mainly stemming from “overthrowing the democratically elected president of Ukraine in 2014” which forced Putin to do what he did. All a load of gash about how we should negotiate with Putin for peace and “stop using Ukrainians as pawns”.

Does. My. fecking. Nut.
Yes, the same, the west is fighting Russia to the last Ukrainian and stuff and if they were just and nice Russia wouldn't have ever moved. They were pressured to attack a neighbouring country and annex 15 percent of their territory. Mental.

Current government was put in force in Ukraine and wasn't elected so I guess Russia has a right up judge which Ukrainian government is OK and potentially overthrow it just because.

The best part was when one of them said 'Russia lies less."

I was like, you made that conclusion from your huge expertise on the subject or what?
 

frostbite

Full Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2021
Messages
3,122
There are some. It’s a small minority and the political party that tries to spread anti-Ukrainian/pro-Russian sentiments has gone from polling at 10-11% to 5-6% but it is nonetheless concerning that they exist at all. And they do tend to make a lot of noise, like all idiots.
I see. Thanks for the info! I believe that in any democracy you will find a percentage of 5-6% for anything - or against anything. I am afraid that in the USA and UK the percentage of those who would support Putin over Ukraine is much higher!... We can only ignore those people (while in autocratic states like Russia they jail them) ... it is a price we pay for having democracy and free speech.
 

Real Name

Full Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2020
Messages
14,133
Location
Croatia
Plenty of idiots like that around here these days too, pretty much the same morons who were antivax and all before - though I must say even within that group (antivax/denialists) most are still anti-Russian anyway. There is only so much traction online Russian propaganda can get.
Yeah, sometimes they're antivaxers but as you said even many those of those are not pro Russian.
Those friends I was mentioning are xenophobic and racist so it goes hand in hand I guess.
 

atkar83

Full Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2014
Messages
850
Location
Vancouver, Canada
How much does annexing territories change in the grand scheme of things. Putin said attacking here will be treated like attack on Russia, but there were some explosions in Russia already and in Crimea too.

I hope this doesn't mean a potential move further to them using nuclear weapons, even tactical.
Probably a desperate attempt to stop losing more ground. It's embarassing for Russia to be swept away so easily right now, and this is probably an attempt to stop further routing
 

RedDevilQuebecois

Full Member
Joined
May 27, 2021
Messages
7,787
No fecking way! :lol:

And I thought almost all modern armies had moved towards lighter kevlar helmets while their designs are closer to the German stahlhelm simply because wide brims protect the neck and the back of the head while not hindering peripheral vision. Just the use of steel helmets alone is silly in 2022, when kevlar is already making those lighter.

It seems like Minsk will be liberated soon:
Well, I guess NATO will have to go back to one of the original options that should have been used to force Russia to stand down. That option is to put a naval stranglehold upon Kaliningrad, especially after the recent pipeline sabotage incidents. Oh, and Lukashenko is a dog.