Russian invasion of Ukraine

Revan

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Wel have to agree to disagree. The only true communists are North Korea so I know he’s not a pure communist on that sense. However, there are many other countries like China and Russia who have communist values. He has been a communist most of his life. He is now clinging into power way past his sell by date. I just think it’s false to call him a right winger as that implies he is motivated by right wing policies and he’s not, he’s an extremist.
Extremist does not mean much, just that you are extreme in your views. You can be an extremist at everything. Marx was an extremist communist, so was Lenin. Putin and Hitler are right-wing extremists. They are also very nationalists, as is often the case with right-wing extremists. On the other hand, the left-wing extremists like Marx or Lenin were not nationalists at all, and supported the abolishment of all borders. Lenin for example wanted all states of the Soviet Union, regardless of their size, to have the same say as Russia, cause borders do not matter (something that ironically was later not supported from Stalin, who unlike Lenin, wasn't even a Russian).
 

Mciahel Goodman

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Genuinely curious, did the US 'decide' to expand NATO in the 1990's as some sort of agenda? It is my understanding that it is written into the NATO charter than any european country that meets certain conditions can apply for membership, which can only be granted by unanimous approval of all current members.

Also, anyone can 'predict' that an alliance designed to specifically protect against Russian aggression... is going to upset a Russian imperialist should one gain power. Lets not hold Kennan up as some sort of savant. Its even easier to predict that any former Soviet states would become targets of Russian aggression should they not have sought defensive guarantees from elsewhere.
Yeah, that's the point Friedman and Kennan were/are making. That late 90s Russia was as far along in terms of meeting those conditions as any of the states admitted into the treaty. Worth reading the article but again is mostly retrospective historical "what if" as of now.
 

KingCavani

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Well they aren’t communists but it’s a fair comparison. Personally, I consider all of those names quite extreme to the left as they are totally against nationalism and borders. The EU certainly shares some values of communism along with some liberal values.
Putin's entire rhetoric is chauvinistic Russian nationalism.

He has labelled Lenin and Trotsky as traitors for Brest-Litovsk, for their WW1 "surrender" and is using those same absurd anti-Bolshevik talking points to justify this very invasion. It was literally the first thing he spoke about - How Ukraine is a Bolshevik creation, which is completely false. He also tends not to bash Stalin because of his role in the Great Patriotic War - Nationalism is his entire game.

None of the people you mentioned are against borders. What nonsense - Sounds like you've been reading too many George Soros conspiracies. It's like there's a middle ground between staunch nationalism and a disbelief in nation states.
 
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What @ManchesterManchester sees when watching Putin:

Ok that is funny I admit :lol:

The sad thing is that this is how the Ukrainians are feeling right now, this feels like a return to the Soviet Union for them.


Extremist does not mean much, just that you are extreme in your views. You can be an extremist at everything. Marx was an extremist communist, so was Lenin. Putin and Hitler are right-wing extremists. They are also very nationalists, as is often the case with right-wing extremists. On the other hand, the left-wing extremists like Marx or Lenin were not nationalists at all, and supported the abolishment of all borders. Lenin for example wanted all states of the Soviet Union, regardless of their size, to have the same say as Russia, cause borders do not matter (something that ironically was later not supported from Stalin, who unlike Lenin, wasn't even a Russian).
Fair points and understand what your saying. All of these leaders started of with some kind of belief system so I agree with what your saying in that respect. My only disagreement is that I think once they started invading countries and murdering millions of people that there was no longer any ideology behind it.
 
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Putin's entire rhetoric is chauvinistic Russian nationalism.

He has labelled Lenin and Trotsky as traitors for Brest-Litovsk, for their WW1 "surrender" and is using those same absurd anti-Bolshevik talking points to justify this very invasion. It was literally the first thing he spoke about - How Ukraine is a Bolshevik creation, which is completely false. He also tends not to bash Stalin because of his role in the Great Patriotic War - Nationalism is his entire game.

None of the people you mentioned are against borders. What nonsense - Sounds like you've been reading too many George Soros conspiracies. It's like there's a middle ground between staunch nationalism and a disbelief in nation states.
Yeah absolutely Putin is a nationalist, I think that is undeniable. He does also bring up history too as you say but conveniently leaves out Ukraine’s independent history.

The EU is a centralised government and their over arching vision is absolutely to form a world government, even if independent nations still exist. You obviously know that Putins gripe with NATO is just that, he doesn’t believe in a universal army. I really wouldn’t call that a conspiracy theory.

Those people you listed do believe in Freedom of movement so that’s why I said they don’t believe in borders. I do agree though that I exaggerated as the EU has borders to those outside so I think the truth is somewhere in the middle of what you and I are saying.
 

Revan

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Ok that is funny I admit :lol:

The sad thing is that this is how the Ukrainians are feeling right now, this feels like a return to the Soviet Union for them.




Fair points and understand what your saying. All of these leaders started of with some kind of belief system so I agree with what your saying in that respect. My only disagreement is that I think once they started invading countries and murdering millions of people that there was no longer any ideology behind it.
It depends. Hitler and Lenin despite killing millions (Lenin probably just a few hundred thousands), had ideology behind them. Sick ideolologies, especially in case of Hitler but definitely had ideology.

In case of Stalin, much less. He was mostly about himself, not about communism.
 

VorZakone

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It depends. Hitler and Lenin despite killing millions (Lenin probably just a few hundred thousands), had ideology behind them. Sick ideolologies, especially in case of Hitler but definitely had ideology.

In case of Stalin, much less. He was mostly about himself, not about communism.
Eh, that's not what r/askhistorians is saying. We'll never know somebody's true motivations but all things considered, they consider Stalin to have been a true believer.
Stalin was a Marxist revolutionary from a very early age, and I don't know of any reason to believe that he wasn't truly committed to communism.

 

tomaldinho1

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I saw 4 unread pages and got kind of scared...
It’s all just an argument of trying to categorise Putin. Don’t think we can put him neatly into our Western boxes and say he’s this or that, he’s got an absolute smorgasbord of policies and history - feel like he’d do anything as long as it benefits Russia.
 

Revan

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Eh, that's not what r/askhistorians is saying. We'll never know somebody's true motivations but all things considered, they consider Stalin to have been a true believer.



He killed pretty much everyone who has had some relation with Lenin, or who did some contribution during the Bolshevik revolution, during those two years of Great Terror. Hard to think that was not motivated mostly by his lust for power.

Bear in mind that the estimations put the number of deaths from 700k to a few millions. All in the space of two years.

By the way, at the end of it he killed the people who were in charge of those killings.
 

moses

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I have no idea either, yet.
Most experts say (with which i agree) that reaching communism (by Marx's theory), is practically impossible. It is just an (stupid) idea which can't exist but is used to fool people.

'Most experts' is a phrase we could unpack for hours. Most of the people I've argued with about Marx over the years haven't read it and are arguing against a perceived idea of Marxism. And as for the idea that it's a ruse is insane. I don't know about your experts but he is a highly regarded philosopher. Marx's greatest work is an analysis of Capitalism, and a brilliant one at that, and theoretical solutions to its inherent problems, an idea if you must but an idea that according to the central tenet of his own philosophy that is always relative to the material. Applying the pamphlet that is the Manifesto to any other time or place is akin to using plans for shelves to assemble a kitchen unit.

Marx is famously not an idealist but a materialist and the idea is always relative to the material.
 

Water Melon

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Come on guys. Why do not we stick to the topic? it has been derailed enough. Getting almost impossible to find any meaningful updates on what is unfolding.
 

led_scholes

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You think the nazi party were right wing? They were insane murderers. How can you say they had belonged to any legitimate ideology.
Yes. Their ideology came from German nationalism and romanticism of 19th century. Add to this militarism and the freikorps and you have a variant of extreme right wing. It's no coincidence that the nazi party found support from the aristocracy and those who believed in the ideal of medieval Europe.
 

tomaldinho1

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Come on guys. Why do not we stick to the topic? it has been derailed enough. Getting almost impossible to find any meaningful updates on what is unfolding.
Ukraine going into state of emergency and calling up army reservists is latest I have seen.
 

VorZakone

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He killed pretty much everyone who has had some relation with Lenin, or who did some contribution during the Bolshevik revolution, during those two years of Great Terror. Hard to think that was not motivated mostly by his lust for power.

Bear in mind that the estimations put the number of deaths from 700k to a few millions. All in the space of two years.

By the way, at the end of it he killed the people who were in charge of those killings.
Right. But he was committed to communism. That is not mutually exclusive from desiring power.
 

KingCavani

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It depends. Hitler and Lenin despite killing millions (Lenin probably just a few hundred thousands), had ideology behind them. Sick ideolologies, especially in case of Hitler but definitely had ideology.

In case of Stalin, much less. He was mostly about himself, not about communism.
A committed communist can still have personal ambition - Stalin firmly believed his way was the correct way and that everyone else be damned - Literally. He wasn't the only Bolshevik like that but Stalin was particularly and almost uniquely intolerant and paranoid to any sort of pushback.

His regime done more damage to communism than any one person ever could. It was poisoned forever from that point. The personality cults, the centralised bureaucracy, the crushing of dissent - The very things the Bolsheviks spoke against became staples of communist regimes as a result. The Socialism in One Country idea was doomed from the start - It couldn't co-exist with capitalism in isolation anywhere let alone in a backward state like 1920's Russia. A lot of delusional Marxists blame Khrushchev and revisionists for the eventual collapse of communism but it was already doomed, already competing in an economic war that it couldn't win.
 

Natener

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Can you guys take the debate of ideology, party affiliation and killing people to another/new thread? It's entertaining but I don't think Nazis and Hitler have a hand in what's going on in Ukraine.