Russian invasion of Ukraine

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frostbite

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You think the nazi party were right wing? They were insane murderers. How can you say they had belonged to any legitimate ideology.
Yes, Hitler and the Nazis were right wing. Mussolini and the Italian fascists were right wing. Franco and the Spanish fascists were right wing.

Is that complicated?
 

TMDaines

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Can you guys take the debate of ideology, party affiliation and killing people to another/new thread? It's entertaining but I don't think Nazis and Hitler have a hand in what's going on in Ukraine.
People just need to put ManchesterManchester on ignore at this stage. It’s either deliberate trolling or extreme ignorance that cannot be addressed here.
 

antohan

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A committed communist can still have personal ambition - Stalin firmly believed his way was the correct way and that everyone else be damned - Literally. He wasn't the only Bolshevik like that but Stalin was particularly and almost uniquely intolerant and paranoid to any sort of pushback.

His regime done more damage to communism than any one person ever could. It was poisoned forever from that point. The personality cults, the centralised bureaucracy, the crushing of dissent - The very things the Bolsheviks spoke against became staples of communist regimes as a result. The Socialism in One Country idea was doomed from the start - It couldn't co-exist with capitalism in isolation anywhere let alone in a backward state like 1920's Russia. A lot of delusional Marxists blame Khrushchev and revisionists for the eventual collapse of communism but it was already doomed, already competing in an economic war that it couldn't win.
Stalin wasn't a Bolshevik. No comment on the rest, I just stopped reading.
 

antohan

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Yes, Hitler and the Nazis were right wing. Mussolini and the Italian fascists were right wing. Franco and the Spanish fascists were right wing.

Is that complicated?
Wings are irrelevant with totalitarian regimes. The wing is just functional to whatever provides the excuse to assault freedom.
 

Foxbatt

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It’s all just an argument of trying to categorise Putin. Don’t think we can put him neatly into our Western boxes and say he’s this or that, he’s got an absolute smorgasbord of policies and history - feel like he’d do anything as long as it benefits Russia.
He would and so would any capable Russian. He has no business invading any other countries but he would always say it's hypocritical for the USA and the UK to say that. They invaded Iraq for no good reason and recognized Kosovo too.
 

frostbite

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Wings are irrelevant with totalitarian regimes. The wing is just placed by whatever provides the excuse to assault freedom.
Says who?

For example, for the people who lived under Franco it was very relevant. Those who where fascists had a good life, those who were communists were thrown in prison. There is an obvious difference.
 

Revan

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Literally from Wiki:
He obviously was a Bolshevik. He had a decent role during the revolution and was very high in the chain of command during the struggles between Bolsheviks, Molsheviks and the social Democratic Party or whatever was called.

It was Trotsky who originally was not a Bolshevik.
 

Foxbatt

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This is going out of topic now. This is the Russian invasion of Ukraine thread and nothing to do with right or left wing.
 

nimic

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He obviously was a Bolshevik. He had a decent role during the revolution and was very high in the chain of command during the struggles between Bolsheviks, Molsheviks and the social Democratic Party or whatever was called.

It was Trotsky who originally was not a Bolshevik.
Socialist-Revolutionaries I assume, since the Bolsheviks/Mensheviks were the Social Democratic party. But yeah, Stalin was a Bolshevik in every sense of the word, while Trotsky was initially a Menshevik.
 

Lecland07

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Yes, notions like racism and lebensraum made Hitler commit far bigger crimes aand led to war that killed 80 millions of people. In sum, Stalin is like a sheep compared to Hitler.
Stalin managed to kills millions without a war. Hardly a sheep; it is just what he did isn't as well known. Stalin was pure evil.

Stalin forced a famine that killed 3.9m people. Holodomor. He executed over 1m of his own people. Forced labour. The Great Purge. He is expected to be responsible for the death of 6m non-combatants without including the famine.

Debating levels of evil by numbers is pointless when it reaches this many deaths. Hitler and Stalin were very much the same.

In the end, the point of whether someone is far left or far right is mute as their reasoning does not matter. Their capability of doing things like this is what really matters. Stalin and Hitler evidence that it is a pointless argument whether Putin is right or left; what matters is whether he has the capability and want to do similar things to them.
 

11101

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CNBC running a piece on Russian finances right now

Foreign currency reserves of $630 billion
Government debt of $200 billion
Their debt to GDP ratio is 18%
Current accounts are in surplus

In other words, the sanctions won't do a thing.
 

Giggsyking

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I’m just curious as you didn’t actually address the point? So which is it?
Whether it is right or wrong to play the final in Russia (I believe is wrong if it happens there as I mentioned in my first post) I am also pointing out the hypocrisy of the UK government.
 

Gehrman

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Stalin managed to kills millions without a war. Hardly a sheep; it is just what he did isn't as well known. Stalin was pure evil.

Stalin forced a famine that killed 3.9m people. Holodomor. He executed over 1m of his own people. Forced labour. The Great Purge. He is expected to be responsible for the death of 6m non-combatants without including the famine.

Debating levels of evil by numbers is pointless when it reaches this many deaths. Hitler and Stalin were very much the same.

In the end, the point of whether someone is far left or far right is mute as their reasoning does not matter. Their capability of doing things like this is what really matters. Stalin and Hitler evidence that it is a pointless argument whether Putin is right or left; what matters is whether he has the capability and want to do similar things to them.
He initially wanted to join Hitler as well but was rebuffed.
 

Alemar

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What I don’t understand is why USA and Europe don’t try to solve it diplomatically.

It’s weird that they have never offered Putin anything of VALUE during negotiations. They only threaten and impose sanctions - it ain’t gonna work.
 

nimic

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What I don’t understand is why USA and Europe don’t try to solve it diplomatically.

It’s weird that they have never offered Putin anything of VALUE during negotiations. They only threaten and impose sanctions - it ain’t gonna work.
What I don't understand is why Russia doesn't try to solve it diplomatically.

It's weird that they have never offered Ukraine anything of VALUE during negotiations. They only threaten and impose war - it ain't gonna work.
 

Gehrman

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Join Hitler how? There was never going to be anything but war between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union, long term, both sides knew that.
On my phone atm, can find the info when im on my computer.
 

The Firestarter

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What I don’t understand is why USA and Europe don’t try to solve it diplomatically.

It’s weird that they have never offered Putin anything of VALUE during negotiations. They only threaten and impose sanctions - it ain’t gonna work.
What do you think would be of VALUE
 

Alemar

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What do you think would be of VALUE
Well… immediate launch of Nord Stream 2. Cancellation of a certain part of previously imposed sanctions. Guarantees of Ukraine to be never accepted to NATO… something positive for Putin, something that he immediately receives in form of clear value (rather than threats).

it’s more than likely such approach would work miles better
 

Mihai

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Yes, notions like racism and lebensraum made Hitler commit far bigger crimes aand led to war that killed 80 millions of people. In sum, Stalin is like a sheep compared to Hitler.
I don't want to derail any more, but i don't agree with this and I find this comment disrespectful to the millions who were oppressed, deported, tortured, starved to death and killed for absolutely no reason.
 

VorZakone

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Well… immediate launch of Nord Stream 2. Cancellation of a certain part of previously imposed sanctions. Guarantees of Ukraine to be never accepted to NATO… something positive for Putin, something that he immediately receives in form of clear value (rather than threats).

it’s more than likely such approach would work miles better
Yeah so feck the Ukrainian people and their wishes, right?
 

Kentonio

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What I don’t understand is why USA and Europe don’t try to solve it diplomatically.

It’s weird that they have never offered Putin anything of VALUE during negotiations. They only threaten and impose sanctions - it ain’t gonna work.
Why would you offer them something of value at gunpoint? What happens then if next month they want more and more?
 

nimic

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It's a bit simplistic to call that "trying to join Hitler", IMO. There is much to disagree with when it comes to Soviet foreign policy in the lead-up to WW2 (how they participated in dismantling Poland, for example), but it's fairly complicated all the same. Don't forget that the Soviets were already, rightly or wrongly, skeptical of Western intentions, due to the foreign interventions against the Bolsheviks in the Russian Civil War. Then the Soviets watched the West sell out Czechoslovakia in Munich, when, at least on the surface, Stalin offered "a million men" to defend them against Germany (this should be taken with a grain of salt, since that also means a million men in Poland). If they were so quick to sell out their democratic ally to the Nazis, what would they do to help the communist Soviet Union, whom (as far as the Soviets were concerned) they had already tried to destroy two decades earlier?

That doesn't excuse the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact or any further discussions, but context is everything.
 

spiriticon

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Well… immediate launch of Nord Stream 2. Cancellation of a certain part of previously imposed sanctions. Guarantees of Ukraine to be never accepted to NATO… something positive for Putin, something that he immediately receives in form of clear value (rather than threats).

it’s more than likely such approach would work miles better
Is your idea of negotiation to give Putin everything he wants? :lol:

What if he wants Lithuania or Poland after Ukraine? Maybe we'll give that to him too. We'll even throw France in for a sweetener.
 

Alemar

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Why would you offer them something of value at gunpoint? What happens then if next month they want more and more?
But they didn’t offer it previously, either.
Usually what works is a “carrot and a stick policy”. But there is no carrot for Putin, and he has never been offered any - not a big surprise that “stick and more stick policy” is not working :)
 

Alemar

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Is your idea of negotiation to give Putin everything he wants? :lol:
My idea of negotiations is to offer someone to receive X in exchange for Y for the counterparty. They don’t offer Putin anything at all - only demand :)
 

spiriticon

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But they didn’t offer it previously, either.
Usually what works is a “carrot and a stick policy”. But there is no carrot for Putin, and he has never been offered any - not a big surprise that “stick and more stick policy” is not working :)
He doesn't want to talk. There's not even a chance to offer him something feasible. Assurances that Ukraine cannot join Nato is a no go, that is clear. Then Putin invaded straightway. There is no talk, only action.