Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

stefan92

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Looks like the Russians have enough

If this is true, they retreated from Snake Island, and even the helicopter that was destroyed there is claimed to have been intented to evacuate forces, not bring further reinforcements.
 

Lemoor

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Obviously the Russian forces there achieved their strategic goals and have just proceeded to the next step of Brilliant Strategic Plan.
 

TMDaines

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German left continues to embarrass itself. Genuinely worse than Hungary by this point.

 

maniak

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German left continues to embarrass itself. Genuinely worse than Hungary by this point.

I don't understand german, what is the left connection to the police actions described in the tweet?
 

nimic

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I don't understand german, what is the left connection to the police actions described in the tweet?
It says that it's a political decision by the SPD and Die Linke. No idea what they mean by that. Also no idea why they confiscated the flag, but given there are plenty of Ukrainian flags left unmolested in that video, I guess it has something to do with the size? Again, no idea what that has to do with the "German left".
 

do.ob

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I don't understand german, what is the left connection to the police actions described in the tweet?
The police seem to be enforcing what's been described in this post:
Here's a police statement in German:
https://www.berlin.de/polizei/polizeimeldungen/2022/pressemitteilung.1203603.php

They cite a treaty from 1992 that compels them to protect soviet war memorials that commemorate the soldiers that fought to bring down Hitler.

They say they aim for two things: to prevent any kind of conflicts during the commemoration of these soldiers and they want to prevent any kind of support, acceptance or glorification for Russia's offensive war against Ukraine, especially demonstrations.
So they are banning both Russiand and Ukrainian flags from these memorial sites (not the entire city, the tweet is at best misleading in that regard) and forbid wearing uniforms, playing military marches or chants that could be used to express acceptance or glorification of Russia's war against Ukraine. There are exemptions for WW II veterans, diplomats and state delegations.
Though judging by all the regular sized Ukrainian flags that are still around they don't seem to be too strict about it. Maybe the other one was too big and too clear a political statement to look the other way.


Berlin (as in the (city)state) is ruled by a coalition of SPD "the Left" and the Greens, so I assume the Twitter user is blaming them for the particular rule that the police were enforcing. To be honest it doesn't seem like he has any deeper knowledge about this beyond what he's seeing in the video. And the German Tweet is from a conservative, who naturally isn't too fond of the work that (far) left politicians do.
 
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Cheimoon

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German left continues to embarrass itself. Genuinely worse than Hungary by this point.

I don't understand german, what is the left connection to the police actions described in the tweet?
It says that it's a political decision by the SPD and Die Linke. No idea what they mean by that. Also no idea why they confiscated the flag, but given there are plenty of Ukrainian flags left unmolested in that video, I guess it has something to do with the size? Again, no idea what that has to do with the "German left".
What's happening here is related to what was discussed earlier in the thread, see the posts below. I suppose Berlin is governed by SPD and Die Linke.

Can anyone shed any light or provide context for this? I'm sceptical that's the whole story.
Here's a police statement in German:
https://www.berlin.de/polizei/polizeimeldungen/2022/pressemitteilung.1203603.php

They cite a treaty from 1992 that compels them to protect soviet war memorials that commemorate the soldiers that fought to bring down Hitler.

They say they aim for two things: to prevent any kind of conflicts during the commemoration of these soldiers and they want to prevent any kind of support, acceptance or glorification for Russia's offensive war against Ukraine, especially demonstrations.
So they are banning both Russiand and Ukrainian flags from these memorial sites (not the entire city, the tweet is at best misleading in that regard) and forbid wearing uniforms, playing military marches or chants that could be used to express acceptance or glorification of Russia's war against Ukraine. There are exemptions for WW II veterans, diplomats and state delegations.
The PDF linked at the end of that contains some maps of the areas. You see that it's just some blocks around the memorial sites and that's it: https://www.berlin.de/polizei/_assets/dienststellen/anlagen-dir-e/220504-direvst111-av-ehrenmale.pdf
 

maniak

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I just found strange the reference to the left, I mean, does the municipal police (or the equivalent) in germany act differently according to the party running the city? Aren't laws always applicable regardless?
 

stefan92

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I just found strange the reference to the left, I mean, does the municipal police (or the equivalent) in germany act differently according to the party running the city? Aren't laws always applicable regardless?
This isn't exactly about laws as such - the City council made a ruling that the memorial for the end of WW2 shouldn't be mixed with statements about the current war and therefore limited the use of all flags there. A different City council majority might not have made this decision and therefore the police might not have needed to act.
 

do.ob

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I just found strange the reference to the left, I mean, does the municipal police (or the equivalent) in germany act differently according to the party running the city? Aren't laws always applicable regardless?
One way or the other banning flags from sites is always a highly political decision. I don't know whose responsibility it was officially, but you can be sure that one way or the other the politicians had their say.
 

frostbite

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I'm not sure you're aware but all those people who protested I believe are going to get long prison sentences. Most people who do object to the war will be scared to speak out or protest. There's a youtube channel that translates Russian's opinions on different matters. Many of them are too scared to even speak frankly to a youtube channel on matters of the state.
Yes, I understand. I am not saying it is easy, it is very hard, it is a dictatorship. However, if one million people protested in Moscow, things would be very different today. It never came close to that. How many Russian soldiers have died? Perhaps 20 thousand? How many Russian protesters have died? Sure, I know they aren't comparable situations, but I expected that we'd see clashes between protesters and Putin's police. I expected to see widespread revolt. Nothing like that happened. A few thousand people care about this war, but millions do not care.

And I also saw a lot of reports that people still trust Putin. Sure, they are against a war, but this does not mean they don't like Putin any more.
 

Water Melon

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Yes, I understand. I am not saying it is easy, it is very hard, it is a dictatorship. However, if one million people protested in Moscow, things would be very different today. It never came close to that. How many Russian soldiers have died? Perhaps 20 thousand? How many Russian protesters have died? Sure, I know they aren't comparable situations, but I expected that we'd see clashes between protesters and Putin's police. I expected to see widespread revolt. Nothing like that happened. A few thousand people care about this war, but millions do not care.

And I also saw a lot of reports that people still trust Putin. Sure, they are against a war, but this does not mean they don't like Putin any more.
Majority of Russia's population do support Putin in this war. Even most of those citizens who left Russia after Feb 24 and moved to other former USSR states did so because they care about their businesses and/or are unwilling to join the army. None of those that are spoke to expressed any disagreement to what Putin has done to Ukraine.
 

stefan92

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Yes, I understand. I am not saying it is easy, it is very hard, it is a dictatorship. However, if one million people protested in Moscow, things would be very different today. It never came close to that. How many Russian soldiers have died? Perhaps 20 thousand? How many Russian protesters have died? Sure, I know they aren't comparable situations, but I expected that we'd see clashes between protesters and Putin's police. I expected to see widespread revolt. Nothing like that happened. A few thousand people care about this war, but millions do not care.

And I also saw a lot of reports that people still trust Putin. Sure, they are against a war, but this does not mean they don't like Putin any more.
And this is exactly why a general mobilization is unlikely, and if it happens would be extremely stupid. What you describe is almost like 1917, when general mobilisation made it possible to overthrow the Tsar.
 

GlastonSpur

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Yes, I understand. I am not saying it is easy, it is very hard, it is a dictatorship. However, if one million people protested in Moscow, things would be very different today. It never came close to that. How many Russian soldiers have died? Perhaps 20 thousand? How many Russian protesters have died? Sure, I know they aren't comparable situations, but I expected that we'd see clashes between protesters and Putin's police. I expected to see widespread revolt. Nothing like that happened. A few thousand people care about this war, but millions do not care.

And I also saw a lot of reports that people still trust Putin. Sure, they are against a war, but this does not mean they don't like Putin any more.
The big problem in Russia is that the people have no prior experience of democracy whatsoever. Throughout its history Russia has always been ruled by an autocratic dictator of one kind or another, sustained by the myth that only a strong leader can hold the country together and fend off invaders. And many Russians today have been led to equate democracy with chaos.

It would take decades to change this mentality ,even if a liberal, pro-Western government took power, which is not likely. The best we can probably hope for right now is that Putin is replaced by someone who is a bit less autocratic, a bit less paranoid, and a bit more inclined to let Ukraine go its own way.
 

frostbite

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The big problem in Russia is that the people have no prior experience of democracy whatsoever. Throughout its history Russia has always been ruled by an autocratic dictator of one kind or another, sustained by the myth that only a strong leader can hold the country together and fend off invaders. And many Russians today have been led to equate democracy with chaos.

It would take decades to change this mentality ,even if a liberal, pro-Western government took power, which is not likely. The best we can probably hope for right now is that Putin is replaced by someone who is a bit less autocratic, a bit less paranoid, and a bit more inclined to let Ukraine go its own way.
Yes, what you are saying is true. However, people in Ukraine did not have any experience in democracy, either. And many protesters died during the Euromaidan. I was expecting to see something similar in Moscow, a Russian Euromaidan. But nothing like that ever happened. Not even close. (Moscow is a European city in many aspects, and their citizens are educated and have contact with the West. )
 

GlastonSpur

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Yes, what you are saying is true. However, people in Ukraine did not have any experience in democracy, either. And many protesters died during the Euromaidan. I was expecting to see something similar in Moscow, a Russian Euromaidan. But nothing like that ever happened. Not even close. (Moscow is a European city in many aspects, and their citizens are educated and have contact with the West. )
Yes, but Ukraine is much further geographically west than Russia (closer to the rest of Europe, and so more part of western culture) and doesn't span 11 different time zones. This is also why even Byelorussia is far more likely to see another uprising than Russia.
 

stefan92

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The best we can probably hope for right now is that Putin is replaced by someone who is a bit less autocratic, a bit less paranoid, and a bit more inclined to let Ukraine go its own way.
I disagree. The best possible scenario would be a collapse of the Russian Federation and a breakup into smaller states that aren't a threat on their own and where some at least might have a chance to become democracies. A bit like what happened when the SU collapsed and the Baltic States oriented themselves towards the West.
 

GlastonSpur

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I disagree. The best possible scenario would be a collapse of the Russian Federation and a breakup into smaller states that aren't a threat on their own and where some at least might have a chance to become democracies. A bit like what happened when the SU collapsed and the Baltic States oriented themselves towards the West.
I didn't say "the best possible scenario", I said the best we can probably hope for (i.e. being more realistic).Of course you're scenario would be better.
 

stefan92

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I didn't say "the best possible scenario", I said the best we can probably hope for (i.e. being more realistic).Of course you're scenario would be better.
Then we have to agree to disagree, as I think my scenario is more realistic. I just don't see a better (from our point of view) potential successor to Putin on the horizon.
 

GlastonSpur

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Then we have to agree to disagree, as I think my scenario is more realistic. I just don't see a better (from our point of view) potential successor to Putin on the horizon.
I'm not saying that I do either, because I've no idea who would likely take over if Putin took a bullet to the back of his head. But I do think that someone taking over is more likely - more realistic - than is the notion of a breakup of Russia into separate nations, although I'd like to see that happen.
 
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frostbite

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Yes, but Ukraine is much further geographically west than Russia (closer to the rest of Europe, and so more part of western culture) and doesn't span 11 different time zones. This is also why even Byelorussia is far more likely to see another uprising than Russia.
I understand what you are saying but I wasn't talking about the whole of Russia. I was talking about Moscow only. It has a population of over 12 million people and used to have more Western stores than Kiev. A revolt in Moscow does not depend on what people in Vladivostok think.