Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by christinaa, Nov 7, 2019.
Why is there no source included in the OP?
Ok. Why is diving so much worse than claiming handball when they are both deliberately trying to get penalties for no fouls?
He is not really said anything bad. He quoting Pep Guardiola definition of "dive"
basically saying that if he gets fouled and will go down for a penalty. If you want to call it a dive they he will dive for a penalty.
The whole cheating element is part of the game, always has and will be. Defenders foul constantly and get away it, they are cheating officials by not getting caught. How many times do you see a slight shirt pull, or way or slowing the opponent which is out of view of the ref. Same with Attacking players.
Everyone plays to the max amount the rules allow.
I rarely see anyone call for handball when it was clearly not a handball, and those that do it are usually serial cheats. Handballs are usually called as a question, when it's very close to call and it 'maybe could have' touched their arm, there's a margin of error. With diving, you know if you've been touched or not - there's no maybe's, no questions, you've chosen to be deceitful.
I don't like professional fouls either. Ole's was comical because it was so brazen but most of the time it's a pure dickhead move. Not sure why we're comparing other forms of cheating though. Diving is far and away the most prevalent form, with the most severe consequence if it works. Most professional fouls are done in the build up so to only get a yellow, and a goal would've been far from guaranteed. A goal is as close to guaranteed as it gets if you win a penalty. Cheating isn't equal.
Seems pointless if you're just gonna cheat. It'll be whoever cheats the hardest wins, and often is. That's a bit shit in my opinion.
True, it's cultural. Ethics in the British game have always been about working and tackling hard. Fouling an attacker is justified if it's perceived to be an honest attempt to get the ball. The ethics in Latin football have been set by attacking players and there's a wider understanding that because defenders will foul and cheat to stop them, they are entitled to bend the rules in their favour. They are more in tune with the smart/stupid spectrum of behaviour on the pitch. In Britain our game has been shaped by big, simple and wholehearted players - aggressive centre-halves, all-action midfielders, physical target man. Guys who embody the values of the fans on the terraces. Whereas the Latin game has typically produced more sophisticated players where their cunning and cleverness is respected. And they've got less sympathy for stupid defenders making a mug of themselves.
Where does the line go? Is doping ok if you don't get caught? This sort of thinking is so cynical, unhealthy, antiprogress and the opposite of what sports is all about. We don't have to cheat because others do it. We should fight it in stead. I want us to be better than this!
Very good post mate, I agree whole heartedly. Shearer is a good example, hard working didn't mind a bit of rough, knew where the net was and loved to through an elbow but nothing much was said. Poch himself said something along the lines of what you are saying, he got roasted for it mind you.
Anyway, I bet Liverpool fans still won't admit their players dive
At least (most) United fans admit and condemn it when one of ours does it.
what does condemn it means when you cheer for the penalty goal the dive gave? When the club won’t fine the player or fans won’t boo the player for winning a penalty through dive? Let’s not act United fans have superior morals here. We all hate when it happens to us. We all take it when it’s given to us. Owen dives against Argentina and the whole country cheered for the penalty.
It means we acknowledge it for what it was and exclaim dislike for it. Plenty of people do that on here if a United player dives, which is a stark contrast to most Liverpool fans.
Not sure what all the random examples from 10 years ago has to do with this, as if they justify anything.
Yes. Diving isn't playing to the max. It's cheating.
Doesnt hurt to read past headlines sometimes. It's not that black and white.
I'm pretty sure what he's talking about it when they feel a bit of contact or a bit of contact coming then they go down. The vast majority of players do it including Uniteds. I actually think Martial at the weekend didn't get his pen because his dive was too obvious.
Except he's a proper diver regardless of his comments.
He should get banned for this. It's admitting that he's cheating and he's encouraging it.
He's the biggest cheat in the league for me and a strong contender for Neymar's Falon D'Or. Salah would probably be third.
Some in this thread are just being deliberately obtuse. This is what you get when you accept these cheats. Ronaldo was a diver at United and I'm glad it was not accepted and called out. If anything it probably made him improve his behaviour. That's the positive outcome we should want rather than brushing it under the carpet.
Like I said its not that simple. A pure dive with the intent of fooling the referee with nothing happening is different than exaggerating a fall or rolling around a little extra.
BTW Messi has dived as well.
If anyone has played football they would understand that sometimes running at speed, loss of balance can make it look like a dive where in actual fact you are trying to get avoid getting injured.
Don't disagree with the that.
Messi doesn't really do it. It's like Rooney and that rare occasion against Arsenal.
Then they should punish divers with a yellow card and a penalty to the other side. That would get rid of it in a hurry.
Which goes back to my point that its not as simple as "intent".
"doesn't really do it" isn't the same as never doing it. Don't see you calling Messi a cheat and it would be ridiculous to say so.
If you don't go down you don't get a penalty.
So many instances we see players trying to get on with it, lose the ball and don't get the foul called back.
If it was my player i'd tell them to hit the floor ASAP.
HOPEFULLY in the future this changes, but we need more bans for simulation also. The game seems happy to give them a yellow card and forget about it.
He is a diver, arguably the biggest in the league and Pep is right to mention it. As is Klopp with their tactical fouling.
Both managers should stop denying or dancing around these issues.
This. As long as refs are shit, and they are and seemingly always will be, diving is not just part of the game but a necessity
Lots of odd justifications. Most of the time these players aren't drawing attention to fouls but creating the foul.
Its weird how the better players are being called divers, might have something to do with their brilliant ability to draw a foul and shift the ball that second quicker before the defender gets there.
Same way as how defenders shielding the ball go down and get a cheap freekick. But that is said to be "being clever" or using his "vast experience"
Who? Me ? Why ?
It's usually just commentators who say that and for a long time they refused to acknowledge any diving whatsoever. Also the consequence isn't the same.
Lots of comments in this thread, that i started, depict the state of society in general at this point in time.
Condoning any type of diving from any player and the stupid comments of Mane is pathetic.
We all know that he's a diver but he should have kept his mouth shut about it.
Big drama show.
you are arguing United fans are morally superior than Liverpool fans. I say football fans are the same. Acknowledging and expressing dislike is something a politician would say to tell people what they want to hear while not really caring.
If he dived he cheated. As simple as that. There's obviously a difference between doing it once over a long career and habitually.
He's spent too much time in Liverpool, his brain is turning to mush
I'm arguing that more United fans admit when a player of ours dives than Liverpool fans do. It's as close to a fact as possible at this point. Considering I lived in Liverpool for years so have plenty of Liverpudlian mates, plus have Liverpool supporting mates in my closest friend group who I've known since primary school, plus have supported United all my life, been pretty active on a United forum for the last 10 years, and have lived and worked in Manchester, I think I can make that comment in good standing.
This is really all by the by though. I just found it funny that so many have argued their players don't dive, yet here he is admitting it.
The main point that's been made is that any cheating shouldn't be accepted, especially diving as it has the most severe consequence of on-field cheating.
A ban plus the team stripped of 30 points would suffice.
Another example of Classical stupidity.
Not the same. Ole makes the tackle knowing he'll get punished for it. A diver has the ball, dives knowing that the opposition will get punished for it. In one case the ref makes the correct call, in the other he doesn't. You are kidding yourself if you think that cynical fouls have as much effect on a result as diving does. I've barely seen a proper penalty in the PL this season because players go down to the softest of touches and yet we've never seen as many penalties. Just players blatantly cheating every week and turning the game around.
People not seeing a problem with diving and "doing everything it takes to win" is what's wrong with football.
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