Most title winning teams still need their talisman though - whether it's a Salah, Rice, KDB etc.
United won't have that with Bruno and Casemiro gone, and it's very tough to get a guaranteed player of that level - as the Wirtz example shows.
Sandro Tonali
- Thread starter Tom Van Persie
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In the latest edition of the United Hour Podcast, we interview Duncan Drasdo of MUST - covering ticket prices, new stadium, INEOS and what fans should be demanding from our club.
Also, due to technical issues we couldn't put a notice up for the previous episode which was about the game against Bournemouth and other stuff. If you'd like to listen to it, click here.
Most title winning teams still need their talisman though - whether it's a Salah, Rice, KDB etc.
United won't have that with Bruno and Casemiro gone, and it's very tough to get a guaranteed player of that level - as the Wirtz example shows.
Agreed. He is a solid Premier League player - nothing more, nothing less. He doesn't particularly excel at anything and is not a natural partner for Mainoo (and is therefore quite unsuitable as a Casemiro replacement).
As you say, if he's the second midfield signing, he'd be an okay option at a reasonable price - Newcastle will not be inclined towards reasonableness, though, and will instead ask for a fee of £90m/£100m, which, for a player of Tonali's calibre, would be utterly bonkers
Who should be the first midfield signing and please actually make it remotely realistic as well, oh yeah and we wouldn't pay that much for Tonali anyway as INEOS will have a walkaway figure so not worried.
If aerial dominance, defensive duels and progressive passing is the focus, Mainoo probably should be on the bench regardless.
Which makes sense ^. Decent player, for a decent, not exceptional price and wage.
Maguire, yeah, I agree, but I have a hope that Bruno will be like Robson when we won our first title under Fergie, or like Giggs when he won his last. Maybe no longer first choice, but still around.
"..If Enzo Fernandez, whose Chelsea future is currently in doubt, cost €121million (£105m; $139m) after the Qatar World Cup and Moise Caicedo and Declan Rice both fetched more than €100m (£87m; $115m) the following summer, Tonali’s valuation will be in and around the same ballpark.."
The overall cost of a potential deal is a factor. United sources, speaking on condition of anonymity, played down the prospect of a move for Tonali in the upcoming transfer window.
If you had to put money on which midfielder we will buy first, which one will it be?
I will take Baleba.
Those are some massive figures.
Another midfielder who's nothing special on the ball.. great.
Is there any midfielder special on the ball that's available this summer? Don't know what some of you expect we're getting.
Having someone who has great ball control, great engine and is agile enough to be press resistant (like Vitinha) would ba dream.
I don't think you're ever going to be able to buy the finished article with all those attirbutes, for anything short of a world record fee. We should be able to find someone with those attributes, that's young and a bit more inconsistent, but has the potential to develop into a more consistent player with those attributes.
Hence the anonymous source at Utd, that the Athletic article mentions, that we aren't going to pull the trigger on him.
I own presumption is that it will be Anderson and Belaba if we can pull both off.
As said in a previous post, they are preparing us for cheaper targets like Carrick as manager and Joao Gomes/Baleba as DM
I don’t mind cheaper targets as long as the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Whether or not they have the hit rate of the attack rebuild when they’re working on a smaller budget is the big question.
I don't mind it either. What I hate is football politics. It's seems that our football people had done the ground work for Baleba, a player most fans don't want for obvious reasons. If they intend to go for it then they should bite the bullet and take responsibility of it . We should not waste time on unrealistic signings to justify us their choice
Anderson is much much better on the ball than Tonali is, Aleix Garcia, Locatelli. There aren't too many sure, but the fee it would take to get Tonali and the brand of football we'd play if we prioritise such a player..
Seems really grim.
Yeah. It would be great to scout a player of that ilk and develop them. Unfortunately with the pressure at UTD, don't see us giving enough time and space to any young player in that position.
Tonali is another one that seems to favour City.
Based on what
This is Isak all over again - the player claims he has an oral agreement in place to leave the club, Newcastle deny that is the case. And with Tonali as well claiming this, it probably means that Isak had it as well.
Was also reported Newcastle have regret with how they longed out the Isak transfer
I would love that for him.
He's a better ball carrier than the English midfielders on the radar of bigger clubs this summer (Wharton, Anderson, and Garner) but aside from that I think the others are better at other elements like line breaking passes/key balls and defensive duels/combat.
He's not that much better on the ball, no. It's not like we're talking about Vitinha here. Garcia and Locatelli are both slow and just not suited to the league at all. Juventus fans on their forum are desperate for Locatelli to go, which should be a massive red flag, really. And that's his performances in Serie A, imagine in PL..
I agree that the fee doesn't sound too promising, but his skill set is incredibly suited for the league and the direction it seems to be heading in. His long range passing is very handy too.
He's not worth anywhere close to the €100m that has started to be suggested from NUFC sources, and that horny fella that likes Italian football
We'd have to look elsewhere for that sort of money, anything close to 100m is mental imo. I understood it with Rice when Arsenal took the plunge on him, but Caicedo and Enzo were never worth that when Chelsea signed them so its artificially inflated the market.
Incorrect - Anderson has very marginally better ball carrying stats than Tonali. See below.
Ball carrying isn't even that significant for a central midfielder anyway. The vast majority of CMs, including Anderson and Tonali, will generate between 2-4x as much Threat from their passing as they will from their ball carrying.
The most threatening CMs for passing, eg Bruno Fernandes and Tielemans, will also generate c. 3x more threat from their passing than even the most threatening CMs for ball progression eg Rice and Gravenberch.
There is a limit to what ball carrying as a CM can do. It's only really super elite dribbling 10s/wingers, namely Cherki and Grealish, who come close to generating as much threat from dribbling as the top CMs do from passing.
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Here's a detailed Tonali vs Anderson comparison
(summary: Anderson is better than Tonali at basically everything aside from 'set pieces' and 'shooting', and the latter is highly debatable given that Anderson has ended up scoring more PL goals this season so far and his 'quality of finishing' score is understandably higher)
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You're trying too hard at this point. Ball carrying is incredibly valuable. Remember Yaya Toure? Dembele? Kovacic was also really good at it. Not sure why you're making up that ball carrying isn't a significant part of being a CM, it's incredibly important and driving forward with pace through midfield is not something that many midfielders in modern football can do.
Worth keeping an eye on whether Newcastle get fined, as UEFA arent accepting Newcastles profit made on the sale of their stadium to their sister company.
Could play a factor in this.
Could play a factor in this.
Oh it's you again.
Not really; I'm simply pointing out what the data shows.
It's not something Tonali is particularly capable of doing either... his ball carrying stats are not actually that good.
Even the very top dribblers in central midfield only generate about 1/3rd of the threat from carrying as the very top passers in central midfield do from their passing.
It's kind of obvious when you think about it - a person can pass a ball much more quickly over a longer distance, and beyond tighter spaces, than a person can carry the ball with it at their feet. Also, probably especially nowadays in the Premier League, unless you are fortunate enough to play against Amorim's United midfield it is very rare you'll get loads of space in midfield through which you can carry the ball in to a dangerous area.
Just take this part of Tonali's data as a simple demonstration:
He passes the ball in to the final third 5.6 times per 90. He carries the ball in to the final third only 1.0 times per 90.
If you look at the below chart, it's also worth noting that most the highest performing players are not getting their stats in the PL. The only player there in the PL isn't even really a CM, more a winger/AM and so shouldn't be there (Odegaard). The Passing Threat data there also leaves off crosses, which would add around 0.4 to the top passing players. So yeah, generally pass progression is probably around 3x more dangerous and important (if not more) than carry progression.
Carrying is more important for players who more often find themselves with the ball already high up the pitch, directly in and around the penalty area (i.e. wingers/10s), but what matters there is no longer distance, because there is no longer the large space to pass forwards (or run in to). It becomes a bit more about having quick feet to navigate the congested area and get the final shot or pass off.
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The website I saw the stats on had Tonali as a better ball carrier but regardless, I agree it doesn't mean as much in terms of the others who are better all rounders in my opinion.Incorrect - Anderson has marginally better ball carrying stats than Tonali. See below.
Ball carrying isn't even that significant for a central midfielder anyway. The vast majority of CMs, including Anderson and Tonali, will generate between 2-4x as much Threat from their passing as they will from their ball carrying.
The most threatening CMs for passing, eg Bruno Fernandes and Tielemans, will also generate c. 3x more threat from their passing than even the most threatening CMs for ball progression eg Rice and Gravenberch.
There is a limit to what ball carrying as a CM can do. It's only really super elite dribbling 10s/wingers, namely Cherki and Grealish, who come close to generating as much threat from dribbling as the top CMs do from passing.
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Here's a detailed Tonali vs Anderson comparison
(summary: Anderson is better than Tonali at basically everything aside from 'set pieces' and 'shooting', and the latter is highly debatable given that Anderson has ended up scoring more PL goals this season so far)
That would be a nightmare scenario
Glad Newcastle priced us out. He would be worth it for 70m, but they will want to make a profit on him and with the reported fees, we will happily stay away.
Who would you put your money on?
You should ask Tonali, I've heard he's good with placing bets.
He's not worth 100m.
70m for me. 80m max.
70m for me. 80m max.
I don't even think he's worth that but its not my decision.