Because none of them shield the defence, and it's not something they will just learn. These players play next to a DM who do that job for them.
Sandro Tonali
- Thread starter Tom Van Persie
- Start date
Really hope we are in for him this summer
People hardly think this is happening? Dan ashworth anyone ?
Don't get the Dan Ashworth reference
Good thing you guys weren’t around when we brought Roy Keane. We’d all be talking about needing Deschamps so that Keane can play.
All these guys know how to play CM. We just need players to compliment what they lack.
How many years ago was that? How many good teams don't play with one now?
Just imagine the outrage just weeks before as we tried to get a 21 striker with 13 goals in the Championship for a British record fee and failed.
That’s the thing, you’re not paying attention. 6’s are few and far between. A “destroyer” at the top, competing for titles etc there not there.
Football continuously moves, hopefully one day we’ll see the return of proper number 9’s. But back to the point midfielders can have more defensive discipline whilst being able to attack.
Casado/ De Jong aren’t 6’s there just midfielders.
Tchouameni/ Valverde aren’t 6’s
Rice Zubimendi aren’t 6’s besides what’s been said, they are just midfielders.
I could go on. But trying to tell me that Tonali, Wharton, Anderson, Baleba don’t have discipline to be positionally available to protect their defenders, is nonsense.
You cannot tell me your watching football matches and not seeing this. I watched Kobbie play a cross 40 yard from goal for Casemiro to header. That’s midfield flexibility.
Some of them do a lot more defensive work than others.
Same as some strikers score more goals than others. Or some CBs win more balls in the air than others. etc. etc.
The idea that "they are just midfielders" as if all midfielders are one big homogenous bucket all capable of playing the same way is daft. The clear way to determine which are more likely to be good enough defensively is to see their defensive stats in their careers so far. Expecting some players to go from insufficient to disciplined defensive machines just because you tell them to is as absurd as expecting a striker to go from an inconsistent scoring rate to being a fox-in-the-box just because you tell them to hang around nearer the goal a bit more. Maybe some could improve, but it's far from a guarantee.
No one mentioned a destroyer.
In those players u mentioned, many are DMs.
of those players you mentioned at the end, Baleba is a DM, Anderson, Wharton, and Tonali all have a DM with them in their current lineups and no they do not have the positional knowledge to play a DM and shield the defense. It not about discipline, its about knowledge.
That is nothing new for a DM.
So is Mainoo a DM? He seem’s to understand his job in a two and what spaces to cover?
The game is changing, and the midfielder we need isn’t a traditional No. 6. We already have one in Ugarte, and while he understands the role, he lacks quality on the ball, which limits how we want to play.
With someone like Tonali, it’s different. Like Mainoo, he’s intelligent enough to understand the defensive midfield role but also comfortable in possession. It’s more about building the right partnership than sticking to a pure 6.
The same applies to Tonali’s partner Bruno.G. He’s naturally an 8, but next to the right partner he can still function deeper. If we signed him alone, people would say he’s not a typical 6 — but that’s the point. We don’t need a typical 6 anymore. Typical 6’s are Ugarte and they normal cannot aren’t able to successfully play in the final third, that’s why we are all saying Casemiro is hard to replace.
Ugarte is not a "a traditional No. 6" - you're just demonstrating that you don't really understand what you're talking about and what the problem is.
Ugarte does not sit deep and shield the defence, he's a player who only really works by proactively hunting the ball and chasing it down. He's as much like a non-goalscoring Conor Gallagher.
Similarly, Tonali is also someone who prefers making tackles on the front-foot by pressing, and is not so good at defending on the back foot and protecting the back four, or halting counter-attacks. I'll remind you again of a comment from the Newcastle forum I posted on here earlier: ""Shite. Bombs forward, loses ball and leaves us woefully exposed". That is not what you look to your 6 to do; they need to be more disciplined and focused on progressing the ball via passing, while they generally maintain their position on the pitch.
That's not the only reason why Casemiro is hard to replace; it's not even the main reason - he is excellent at defending the penalty box, whether by tackles, blocks or headers. Ugarte is not. Casemiro is also excellent at passing forwards from deep. The goal-scoring from him has been a very welcome bonus, but it's not the first thought when looking for a player in his position.
A player who is excellent at defending the box and at passing forwards/creating from deep would probably suffice for a Casemiro replacement, even if you ignored his play in the final third. But even then such players are unbelievably rare at the moment.
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Who’s your pick other than Locatelli to fill this position for United?
You can see a bit more of my analysis on the subject in the post here, if you haven't seen it already:
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/centre-midfielder-transfer-links.488776/post-34033035
It's clear from a cursory glance that options beyond Locatelli are scarce.
If I simply had to pick someone other than Locatelli, it would be Anderson, as his progressive passing is very good and he's quite solid defensively. Albeit, solid defensively is still not excellent defensively, and I can guarantee a midfield of him with Mainoo would leak more goals than the current pairing for a couple of seasons at least.
If United can't get Locatelli or Anderson then you're starting to get even more drawbacks. At a stretch I maybe, maybe might back Bruno Guimaraes, as even though he's not exactly the right profile, at least he is PL proven and can bring some of the experience and mentality lost with Casemiro. But he also might have less pace and fewer years in the tank left than even Locatelli. Those 3 are it for me as far as it goes for names I can endorse as potential nailed-on first-choice starters instead of Casemiro to partner Mainoo.
I would also be keen on signing Chema Andres if possible, as he's the right profile and an excellent prospect, but I think he's still a couple of years away from being ready to start most weeks in the PL. Ideally you would sign him this summer and have him as the back-up to a more experienced option (eg Locatelli or Bruno G) for a bit until he's ready to be the main man. I have similar thoughts about Aleksandar Stankovic, albeit he could also develop in to an 8 or even a 10 in future.
Mainoo's current lack of ability to protect the defence places a high burden on a midfield partner which very few players are capable of reaching. While Mainoo's defensive game is still developing over the next few years, it really limits the possibilities.
Mainoo is poor at doing that, what are you talking about?
Ugarte isn't a typical 6.
Exactly you’re just giving unnecessary problems instead of solutions my friend.
I gave you 4 players. You challenged me on this but now your saying your ideal players are 2 of the 4 players I gave.
Let’s hope the recruitment team aren’t trying to over complicate things like you. We have 4 midfielders in this league that if are complemented right will offer us a lot more than Mainoo and Casemiro who have been very productive in a mid block.. but if we are ever asked to stretch the pitch we know what happens. They don’t have the legs and they will lose more battle than they win, especially if your 10 is Bruno Fernandes.
Athleticism and technical ability is all we mainly required. Tonali has it.
Locatelli isn't good enough. Since you're using Newcastle fans' quotes on Tonali, here are some by Juventus fans' on Locatelli from their forum:
They are begging for us to take him after being linked to him. So yeah, avoid.
No.
That's the issue with looking too much at stats. It's a metric based on historical stats, but doesn't necessarily translate into a future team in a different environment in a new role. For instance, who would have thought that Wijnaldum would be such a good box to box midfielder as he was much more attacking before. Rio Ferdinand was an attacking midfielder at one point in his career, as was Ronny Johnsen. Looking at their stats would most likely not have given you context to consider them as one of the best in their much more defensive positions later on. Same with a young Scholes, for instance. That's why scouts and professional managers are able to see. List of players who transitioned from an attacking role to a more defensive to a very high level:
- Schweinsteiger
- Mascherano
- Antonio Valencia
- Kuyt - started out as a striker
- Bakayo Sagna - was once a winger but turned out a defensive fullback
- Jesus Navas
- Wayne Rooney, to some extent
Probably plenty more. Some players learn their positions quickly, while others don't.
Him and Anderson would be a crazy good pairing to add to Bruno and Kobe. I think we’d be one of the strongest in the league for the first time in forever.
I would love that
A funny thing is that a bunch of them are keen to sell Locatelli to United so that they can replace him with... Tonali.. who Newcastle fans are keen to sell...
But at least some Juve fans have said that Locatelli has decent this season, but inconsistent (those latest comments were after an in fairness pretty shit mistake from him):
eg from the last 30 days:
"Ripper game from him....he has really stepped up his game under Spaletti.""
"I think he has had a decent season and the criticism is over the top."
Though the conclusion is that basically all the high profile midfielders out there are pretty shit and United are even more screwed than I thought when Casemiro leaves...
Even Bruno G is now out for 2 months with a hamstring injury.
Until the age of 15 ffs. He didn't suddenly change at 25.
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No he didn't, but plenty more did! But great to point out that one player and disregard the rest of the post. I think just looking at stats, as you argued, is not a good idea in football because there are so many other things to consider.
Well he's seemed good the few times I've watched him lately as well - albeit it appears that has come during a revival of Juve and him under Spalletti.
But by the same token - trying to take all things in to account, there still aren't really any potentially available CMs out there who pass all the possible checklists of things to consider, mainly: 'eye test', 'stats test', 'rated by those who watch him every week' test.
It's a bad market in which to be trying to replace someone as key as Casemiro.
If Anderson is the main target for United, which makes the most sense, but United lose out on him to City then what comes next is a big concern.
Maybe you can pitch that info to all the football teams that have started to dive deeper into data in the last few years.
I can see where you are coming from but I don't think, making the data the culprit is really getting you anywhere. As it is so often, it is always about the user - obviously every data point has to be seen in context but the exact same thing can be said about the eyetest as well with the same ramifications. You are right, whether a player could thrive in different roles is sometimes difficult to predict but at the same time, the might be already metrics out there, that can make such a task a little easier, metrics that aren't known to the public currently but potentially in the future.
In conclusion, the issue isn't the stats but what are the stories people want to build onto those numbers. There it is important to figure out environmental factors for this or that number and if the task is any sort of prediction of the future, compare the environment that for example club A would provide would be comparable to the environment club B provides where the player in question is thriving at the moment.
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As a general remark - the question about what is a 6, what is a DM, what means modern in that respect - thats a discussion that requires defining these terms in the beginning. Otherwise those discussions will forever go nowhere since people have different understandings of things.
Yeah I would love to see it but my gut feeling is that City have already lined up Anderson for the summer
Yeah this is a fair point. I am still aware that I am trying to come to conclusions with imperfect information.
There will be lots of data points related to eg players' speeds with and without the ball, running intensity, recovery runs, speed of playing passes etc. which I'm clueless on but I'm sure many clubs have now. Also things such as how certain stats and metrics are likely to develop by age - eg if a younger player is slightly deficient in one area, then based on the development of other similar players in the past over their careers can they still be expected to reach a good level etc.>?
Screamer
Edit: Actually, not as good as that. Sweet hit, though.
Edit: Actually, not as good as that. Sweet hit, though.
Changing some minds?
His first goals of the season - even Woltemade managed to bag one again today.
Let's see how he continues to do in the PL against 10 men.
Fergie Fergie sign him up!!
Didn’t notice him until he scored. Cracking second goal. Don’t think he’s all that.
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He is a good player - and if he was available for £60 million - sure, but Newcastle will demand £100 million - and he is absolutely not worth that
And where would you play him in midfield?
Not if the agenda is to buy a DM.
First goal is obviously a massive deflection. Second goal is nicely taken but its his first goals of the season with 22 starts. So I'm not sure 2 goals in a match changes much unless he starts scoring more frequently than a 1 off fa cup match and the first in 22 games where hes on the scoresheet and I think anyone that changed their mind based on it is fickle. It doesnt hurt though and if he gets on the scoresheet again in the next few matches maybe he'll hit a purple patch
Yeah he's had a pretty poor season overall, but I think theres a good player in there. He got MOM yesterday so it was a pretty good performance, goals aside.
I agree with some on the fee, 60m seems fair but probably unrealistic.
Sadly I don't see us getting him for 60m. They bought him for 60m and he's cracked on since then.
He's under contract till 2028, Newcastle will ask for £100m+ if he goes this summer, won't be viable due to that I think.