The murder of Sarah Everard | Couzens sentenced to a whole-life order

[Peter van der Gea]

I heard a great call on LBC Thursday, with a lady explaining a few things guys can do to make women feel a bit safer, things like crossing the road, not matching their pace from behind, not being where they can't see us, being on the phone, basically overtly showing that we respect their personal space. I think we actually give them even more personal space than the social distancing we're doing now.

We can go even further, like actively calling out misogyny, not staring, etc. and change mindsets.

We can't stop psychopaths, you need experts for that, but we can try and stop the generalized fear

 

[oates]

Because that's not the experience of every woman. Perhaps a particularly vulnerable and unlucky one. There's no doubt woman may experience things detailed in the comment a few times in life. Which is disgusting. But to suggest there is a cycle of never-ending abuse felt by all woman across their entire life is very disingenuous.

I think she was talking about genuine fear that women experience possibly due to one or a few genuine experiences and not about constant abuse throuhout their lives.

I read Marina Hyde's article yesterday in the Guardian, the link has already been posted a few times and to be honest it came across as very genuine and it hit hard.

I don't have the confidence that you do to be able to write off a woman's feelings.

 

[K Stand Knut]

There is potentially a lot of variables for her involvement. From completely innocent to making an excuse whilst unaware of the gravity of what was going on to being involved.

It will come out at some point but I wouldn't be surprised if her role was not that involved with the actual kidnap/murder, especially as she got released quite quickly. Don't think she would have been if more involved but could be wrong

I agree. It could be something, it could be nothing.

Like I said, it is not beyond the realms of possibility that it was a ploy to be able to ensure that they had all the evidence that they could get. It might seem odd, but it would not be unusual to just arrest someone to get them out of the house and make things easier, especially in scenarios such as this where the situation is so grave.

The fact that she has been released on bail says a lot.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

That reddit post is overexaggerating a bit

It's not, mate. I mean, I don't who the writer is, or even if they are female, but it's not an exaggeration. I'm just a bloke with two sisters, but I know that

 

[TrueRed1999]

I think we should be talking about keeping streets safe for everyone, not just women. Walking around alone in the dark in quiet areas has always been advised against for everyone, and for good reason.

BBC stated that 73% (roughly) of violent crime is actually done against men. I know there seems to be this idea in society that men are spoiling for a fight and bring it on themselves, but this is not true. Men are in just as much danger if they wander around alone.

There is also the thing that men are naturally stronger than women, but we are not super heroes. One stab with a knife will kill a man as easily as a woman. You cannot fight an armed person whilst unarmed. Even people that have been trained how to fight say that your chances of beating an armed person is low.

In the end, I don't think there is anything you can really do about it. It is not nice to think about, but how do you stop this stuff from happening? Background checks only work on people who have done stuff before.

The fact that this guy was in the police too should be very alarming and my heart goes out to Sarah's family and friends. What a despicable and evil crime and the guy who committed it should never see the light of day. I have been listening to what women have said over the last few days and some of what they have come out and said like Curfews or Things we can do to make them safe although coming from a good place I can't see how our gender collectively can be responsible for the odd Evil Psychopath.

2 Years ago I was visiting my gran and walked to hers at around 10am on a Sunday morning, it was quiet and I didn't notice a random person was on the other side of the road. I eyeballed him and realised he was staring exactly at me copying my pace and straight away alarm bells were ringing. I was listening to music which I muted it to hear everything around me, I paced up, he followed and then out of nowhere he ran right at me which I obviously tried to run as quickly as I could. It was up hill and all I remember was him jumping behind me and grabbing my ankle. We fought for minutes where I was literally fighting for my life and all I kept thinking was this is it, I am dead. I was bloodied and he kept trying to grab something sharp in his pocket and I was wrestling to get him off and screaming for help.

Thankfully a few people heard my cries for help and came out with weapons to help get him off me and me inside for protection. I have never ever felt so helpless, weak and pathetic in all my life and that guy destroyed every confidence in myself, I thank god for those people for helping me as I would have probably died that day. When the person was found and arrested it took 2 years of constant police interview and therapy and was told he will never see a court as he is schizophrenic and has been sectioned under the mental health act. I know women are saying its all happens to them but it can and has happened to me, and the scary part is why which I will never know. I am still an anxious wreck when going to work, going shopping or going down the street.

I really hope Sarah's family get proper justice and hope we can do something to diminish something as atrocious and evil like this from happening again.

 

[Agent Red]

I know it’s an illustrative point, but I think I addressed why, at least in my opinion, it doesn’t work, and I think as others and myself have touched upon, actually has the opposite effect of what should be the intention.

Just to be clear though, I’m solely talking about the curfew point here. I do think we can and should talk about how things can be improved, at least at the lower end of the spectrum where it’s most likely to have an effect.

I do actually agree with you that I don't personally feel antagonist tactics work that well and therefore can be counterproductive.

I guess I just feel like people should be able to rise above this curfew thing and not have the defensive backlash reaction given it's so clear it's not being proposed seriously. A lot of people seem to have got stuck on this and needing to explain why they don't think it's a good idea, is unfair to men, how men can be victims too etc. rather than seeing it as a passing point showing how normal it is for us not to question advice given to women.

In a way it illustrates your point as to why these tactics don't work, but I think it's a bit depressing more people can't realise it's not about them and that it's blown up into a major part of the discussion. The intent is clearly to encourage people to see things from a different perspective and question that, not to 'give men a taste of their own medicine' as many have taken it.

 

[Feed Me]

Gets better.

I got 5 sons, each as handsome as the other

One of them has a disability and autism and he is the cutest of the lot. He is now 16 and due to his autism has no limitations in what he says or does, simply doesn't understand boundaries. So if he sees a nurse that is good looking he will always say things like "hello beautiful" (something he learnt of his grandad, as in his grandad says to him hello beautiful and not goes around saying it to nurses).

The weird thing is he has no boundaries yet no one finds some of what he says as "offensive" even if we are sometimes embarrassed by it. He gets swooned over when he comes out with "hello beautiful" etc

Five sons! Christ, I bet they’ve kept you busy.

 

[Penna]

What has happened to the woman that helped this dude? I know she's out on bail but are they still pursuing her?

It's his wife, who is a biochemist. I'm guessing she washed the clothes he was wearing or something along those lines. They have two young kids, I assume she's with them. She hasn't been charged yet, she was arrested and released.

 

[Bobski]

Used to have a job in Belfast where I finished my shift at 3 AM in the morning, no car at the time, 35 mins walk through the City to get home, constantly on edge, wondering why everyone you saw was out, concerned about Cars driving past at slowish speeds, keeping an eye on corners and alleyways. It was always something that struck me after a night out, with a few drinks in me, how little care I took in comparison.

I love walking in the late evening generally, because I tend to stay to areas I feel are safe and you have an awareness of the demeanour and body language of those around. Groups of young men are clearly potential danger, but there is that balance that if you make it too clear you are avoiding them, they might pay attention.

So, yes, there is plenty of anxiety there for men walking alone, the difference is for the women in my life, that they feel it constantly, and not just at night. I had an experience a few months ago, during the start of lockdown, working in an industrial area, very quiet. I was walking across a Car Park on a break at lunch time, heading to a Coffee shop, my route was taking me within 10 metres of the sole car parked, as I got close I heard that distinctive sound of the car locking, a glance across showed a woman by herself in the car looking at me, clearly concerned. I laughed at the time, but events like this make a difference to my perception.

 

[2mufc0]

It's not, mate. I mean, I don't who the writer is, or even if they are female, but it's not an exaggeration. I'm just a bloke with two sisters, but I know that

Are 6 year olds really looking up girls skirts?

 

[Green_Red]

I’m at a bit of a loss as to what individual men can do though. I mean, you can put out a message saying don’t attack women, but those who wouldn’t don’t need to be told and those who would aren’t going to listen. Shy of more and better policing, it’s difficult to see what would work.

Impossible situation. Wasn't there an attack recently where a terrorist was released from prison after undergoing psyche evalutions and passing the parole board only to kill on the day of, or within days of, his release. If a psychologist can't stop these psychos what chance do us civilians have?

I would like to think no one I know would need to be told but you just don't know. We can't report people just because they share an opinion that you find wrong, thought is not a crime unfortunately.

 

[sugar_kane]

Twitter is an absolute mess on the female safety issue at the moment, it's nice to read some fairly thoughtful posts on it on the matter on here.

I've thought about this a lot over the past 24 hours, and chatted to my girlfriend about it a lot too. Basically I think the only concrete conclusions I can draw are these

• Women do not feel safe on their own at night, this is horrendous - they should be able to talk about this, and men should listen.
• We can help them feel more safe by modifying our behaviour around them, and helping make sure other guys we know do similar (and try and raise our kids to be considerate of these things also)
• It isn't however possible to make women be completely safe, as there will always dangerous psychos out there and everyone needs to be vigilant and sensible when in secluded areas at night, especially women - I can't see how this can ever not be true, as awful as it is. How dangerous the world at large is will improve over time as societies, countries etc. increasingly become more civilised, but no modification of behaviour of normal people or discussion or legislation will stop dangerous and disturbed people existing and meaning that vigilance is necessary
• Broader issues around gender and equality, are only partly linked to the discussion around female safety and the more they get brought into the discussion, the more it confuses the issue and elevates tension to the point where any reasoned discussion is practically impossible

My slightly more contentious view (which I'm happy for someone to dissuade me of) is that the point often made on Twitter currently, broadly along the lines of - "no one is saying it is all men who are dangerous, but many men are and we don't know which" is not radically different from drawing a similar comparison between Muslims and terrorists, which would be completely atrocious and counter productive.

^I should add that I instinctively feel that I might be massively off with the above analogy, but would like it if someone could point out why exactly.

 

[spontaneus1]

I heard a great call on LBC Thursday, with a lady explaining a few things guys can do to make women feel a bit safer, things like crossing the road, not matching their pace from behind, not being where they can't see us, being on the phone, basically overtly showing that we respect their personal space. I think we actually give them even more personal space than the social distancing we're doing now.

We can go even further, like actively calling out misogyny, not staring, etc. and change mindsets.

We can't stop psychopaths, you need experts for that, but we can try and stop the generalized fear

Reminds me of a funny story when I was walking home by myself from a night out at 2am once. On the way home there was a woman walking by herself about 50 yards in front of me, and she was clearly worried that I was maybe following her. I didn't want to slow down to let her increase the distance because it was lashing down and was cold enough, all in all I wanted to get home as fast as possible. Now normally I would just walk faster but I probably would just end up scaring the poor girl even more, and I don't know if I would reach my turn off before overtaking her. She kept looking back, and I didn't know what to do as shouting, "Don't worry I'm not going to rape you" didn't seem like the best option either.

Never seen someone look so relived when I eventually reached my turn off.

 

[TheReligion]

You cannot fight an armed person whilst unarmed. Even people that have been trained how to fight say that your chances of beating an armed person is low.

I would fancy my chances against someone with no arms to be honest.

 

[Jericholyte2]

Don’t know of this has been posted yet but I think this guy hits the nail on the head.

No, it’s not all men, but all men need to take responsibility. As with other subjects if we don’t stamp out people spouting homophobic, xenophobic, racist behaviour then we are essentially condoning it.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[sullydnl]

Not saying you're wrong, but how do you extend this line of thinking to explain male on male violence, which makes up the large majority? Internalised misandry?

That's a good question.

I would think that both are driven first and foremost by an unfortunate propensity towards violence. Something we see not only in attacks on women and other men but even on themselves. It's repeating a point I made earlier in the thread but even when attempting suicide, men tend to opt for more violent methods, which is why the suicide rate for men is higher despite women being more likely to attempt suicide. That link between masculinity and violence would seem to be the primary issue.

Beyond that, I think violence against men and violence against women tend to have slightly different secondary drivers. In terms of the latter I see sexually-driven misogyny as the most obvious secondary driver, as most extremely expressed in violent sexual assault (which men are typically less likely to commit on other men).

In terms of the former, secondary drivers could include things like crime-based violence (as men are disproportionately more likely to be involved in such activity) as well as the need some men seem to feel to dominate and hold power over (or perhaps more accurately be seen to dominate and hold power over) other men. In that case I'm thinking of the sort of violence you get in the streets on night's out, where the base motivation often seems to be a need to feel better about themselves by beating another guy or forcing them to back down.

Primarily though, I suspect it's often driven by simple opportunism as (despite being the more likely victims of violent crime) men don't tend to take the same steps women do to limit their risk in public. In the case of muggings for example, the fact that men are less likely to engage in cautious behaviour makes them easier targets and thus more likely victims. Some people also possibly believe minor violence towards other men is more acceptable than violence towards women.

All of which is a long way of saying I do think men have issues in terms of how they interact with each other too, as well as how they try to fit into the world around them. Being often too quick to resort to violence, too quick to respond to provocation, too oblivious to the risks/dangers around them and too wrapped up in less helpful ideas of masculinity (e.g. a reluctance to seek earlier help for emotional distress). All of which sees them do harm to themselves too.

 

[esmufc07]

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[BusbyMalone]

Absolutely no surprise that he's trying to take his own life. There can't be a worse fate for a copper than being thrown in jail.

 

[DOTA]

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[VeevaVee]

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Looks like those cops are reacting to a man going nuts?

 

[dannyrhinos89]

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Unless I'm blind all I'm seeing there is a man in a hood pushing a police officer from behind causing things to escalate and towards the end another man is causing issue.

I'm not seeing any women getting attacked.

Why do knobs like this woman bullshit for likes on twitter.

 

[Penna]

Because that's not the experience of every woman. Perhaps a particularly vulnerable and unlucky one. There's no doubt woman may experience things detailed in the comment a few times in life. Which is disgusting. But to suggest there is a cycle of never-ending abuse felt by all woman across their entire life is very disingenuous.

You'd be hard-pressed to find one woman who feels completely safe walking alone late at night, ever, wherever she lives. Even if it's only a fleeting thought, it's always there. Many women (including me) keep our keys in our hand, both to make sure we can get in quickly and as a potential defence.

 

[MadMike]

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Apart from the fact that the cops there seem to have been attacked first, I don't quite understand the take "a system that let a cop kill a woman".

Pardon my cynicism, but what system doesn't? We live in a free society and generally accept that we won't be able to prevent a large number of crimes, but hopefully we'll investigate and deliver justice afterwards. Which seems to be the case here, since the murderer being a cop doesn't seem to have protected him from being arrested and charged.

The only society that can 100% prevent a cop from killing a woman, is one where there are no cops or one where there are no women.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

Are 6 year olds really looking up girls skirts?

Yes. As I've mentioned, I have sister's, one younger and my first real punch after it happened to her.

It's more "ooh, easy target" than anything sexual, but, it does set a path because of the "boys will be boys" attitude that's still around

 

[Dirty Schwein]

Twitter is an absolute mess on the female safety issue at the moment, it's nice to read some fairly thoughtful posts on it on the matter on here.

I've thought about this a lot over the past 24 hours, and chatted to my girlfriend about it a lot too. Basically I think the only concrete conclusions I can draw are these

• Women do not feel safe on their own at night, this is horrendous - they should be able to talk about this, and men should listen.
• We can help them feel more safe by modifying our behaviour around them, and helping make sure other guys we know do similar (and try and raise our kids to be considerate of these things also)
• It isn't however possible to make women be completely safe, as there will always dangerous psychos out there and everyone needs to be vigilant and sensible when in secluded areas at night, especially women - I can't see how this can ever not be true, as awful as it is. How dangerous the world at large is will improve over time as societies, countries etc. increasingly become more civilised, but no modification of behaviour of normal people or discussion or legislation will stop dangerous and disturbed people existing and meaning that vigilance is necessary
• Broader issues around gender and equality, are only partly linked to the discussion around female safety and the more they get brought into the discussion, the more it confuses the issue and elevates tension to the point where any reasoned discussion is practically impossible

My slightly more contentious view (which I'm happy for someone to dissuade me of) is that the point often made on Twitter currently, broadly along the lines of - "no one is saying it is all men who are dangerous, but many men are and we don't know which" is not radically different from drawing a similar comparison between Muslims and terrorists, which would be completely atrocious and counter productive.

^I should add that I instinctively feel that I might be massively off with the above analogy, but would like it if someone could point out why exactly.

I'm actually intrigued to hear people's thoughts on this.

It's something that crossed my mind also.

 

[Brophs]

Absolutely no surprise that he's trying to take his own life. There can't be a worse fate for a copper than being thrown in jail.

Can I suggest being hunted in the streets like an animal and then defiled and killed?

 

[Peter van der Gea]

Reminds me of a funny story when I was walking home by myself from a night out at 2am once. On the way home there was a woman walking by herself about 50 yards in front of me, and she was clearly worried that I was maybe following her. I didn't want to slow down to let her increase the distance because it was lashing down and was cold enough, all in all I wanted to get home as fast as possible. Now normally I would just walk faster but I probably would just end up scaring the poor girl even more, and I don't know if I would reach my turn off before overtaking her. She kept looking back, and I didn't know what to do as shouting, "Don't worry I'm not going to rape you" didn't seem like the best option either.

Never seen someone look so relived when I eventually reached my turn off.

That's the point though, girls grow into women knowing that they can't identify a potential attacker, so they always have to be on guard

 

[Classical Mechanic]

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The UK police are a constant disappointment to the lefties that have watched so many Netflix shows that they think they’re American.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

Don’t know of this has been posted yet but I think this guy hits the nail on the head.

No, it’s not all men, but all men need to take responsibility. As with other subjects if we don’t stamp out people spouting homophobic, xenophobic, racist behaviour then we are essentially condoning it.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Bang on

 

[UmbroDays]

Don’t know of this has been posted yet but I think this guy hits the nail on the head.

No, it’s not all men, but all men need to take responsibility. As with other subjects if we don’t stamp out people spouting homophobic, xenophobic, racist behaviour then we are essentially condoning it.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

I think instead of just talking to your friends, I think people need to evaluate who they're friends with in the first place.

I literally have no one in my close circle that rolls like this.

 

[SalfordRed18]

I think instead of just talking to your friends, I think people need to evaluate who they're friends with in the first place.

I literally have no one in my close circle that rolls like this.

The issue here is that most males would probably say the same about their close circle of friends. And yet still, harassment, assault and rape still happen frequently. It doesn't add up.

 

[Wolverine]

Unless I'm blind all I'm seeing there is a man in a hood pushing a police officer from behind causing things to escalate and towards the end another man is causing issue.

I'm not seeing any women getting attacked.

Why do knobs like this woman bullshit for likes on twitter.

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[Olly Gunnar Solskjær]

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[Wolverine]

The UK police are a constant disappointment to the lefties that have watched so many Netflix shows that they think they’re American.

That's weird because the rhetoric around policing here surround police brutality issues is markedly different to that in the states. Specific issues surrounding stop and search, knife crime, gang culture here versus more gun culture/encounters type of issues in the states.

Almost as if you've created this fantasy caricature of what you think anybody who might care enough to speak about these things as lazy Netflix-watching armchair types. As opposed to people who might be affected by some of the issues they believe in or genuinely think there is a problem and might want to affect change.

 

[Wolverine]

I just can't fathom at all the rationale for sending the Met there. I get that the gathering might not be legal but once its there, to get involved like that surely worsens things?

Whatever you may think about optics, morality of male police subduing/arresting women in the context of that vigil, if the argument is covid prevention surely inciting panic and crowd arrest is more likely to lead to closer proximity of crowds and increasing transmission risk. Compared to letting protesters gather in an outdoor environment in the cold weather.

 

[Ludens the Red]

The issue here is that most males would probably say the same about their close circle of friends. And yet still, harassment, assault and rape still happen frequently. It doesn't add up.

It completely adds up if you understand sex offenders and the most prominent ones that live amongst us in society.
You have the sex offender who grew up a loner, with almost no relationship circle, full of contempt and anger who may himself have been sexually abused. A sociopath.

On the other end you have the manipulating and very violent psychopath, very able to mask his behaviour amongst close friends and family and even become a complete charmer. But the type who subjects his partner to years of violence and abuse. This is why so many women who have been abused tell the same tail of a ‘charming and lovely man’ for the first year or two of the relationship.

Sex offenders generally don’t discuss their sexual offending and give any clues to it unless they go to prison and then afterwards but only once they’ve been forced to.

 

[sullydnl]

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Whatever about the necessity of it, it definitely isn't good optics as it immediately prompts the above sort of response.

 

[Hammerfell]

The police are fecking scum.

 

[Pexbo]

A(apart from @TheReligion)CAB

 

[maniak]

Yeah police shotting themselves in the foot here.