Sarah Everard disappearance | PC Wayne Couzens has been charged with her kidnap and murder

DOTA

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Right. So that makes every cop a bastard...

It's clearly been mishandled by the Met. They should have just contained it despite it breaking the rules, but let's not pretend all of those people are there for the vigil and to pay their respects.
You're all bastards for other reasons. As we have discussed, cordially, many times before.

Yeah, it's just an unbelievable decision from the met. In what world did they think this wouldn't look appalling?
 

TheReligion

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I'd imagine cus a cop killed her. Just a guess like.
Scroll up.

You're all bastards for other reasons. As we have discussed, cordially, many times before.

Yeah, it's just an unbelievable decision from the met. In what world did they think this wouldn't look appalling?
They have got it wrong and it's certainly not how I'd of looked to police it. It was pretty obvious there would be activists within the genuine attendees who would seize the opportunity to ignite confrontation. It's happened during all of the very legitimate gatherings we've seen over the past 12 months to varying degrees and the Met should have known better.
 

oates

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Pretty much. Begs the question why there's people with signs saying ACAB at a vigil in someone's memory too.
One cop is guilty of this crime, it isn't noticeable that all cops are closing ranks and earning the epithet , it looks like there are some people wanting to hijack the vigil for their own agenda just as some will try to hijack this convo which would be a shame.
 

DOTA

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Scroll up.



They have got it wrong and it's certainly not how I'd of looked to police it. It was pretty obvious there would be activists within the genuine attendees who would seize the opportunity to ignite confrontation. It's happened during all of the very legitimate gatherings we've seen over the past 12 months to varying degrees and the Met should have known better.
All they had to do was back off and let people light candles, sing songs etc.

Instead they went with an aggressive plan that only serves to reduce women's trust in policing, at a time it is already taking a hit.

Assaults on women are already hugely underreported due to a lack of faith in both policing and the courts.

It's just appalling. I'm not suggesting you disagree with any of this. I'm just ranting cause it's so astonishingly bad.
 

TheReligion

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All they had to do was back off and let people light candles, sing songs etc.

Instead they went with an aggressive plan that only serves to reduce women's trust in policing, at a time it is already taking a hit.

Assaults on women are already hugely underreported due to a lack of faith in both policing and the courts.

It's just appalling. I'm not suggesting you disagree with any of this. I'm just ranting cause it's so astonishingly bad.
I'm not sure what started the confrontation off but I'm pretty sure it won't have been the police going in to try and crack a few heads. From what I've seen there's clearly activists in amongst the vigil and they aren't there to pay their respects.

It's a difficult one but should have been handled differently. From what I can gather the Met were told not to let it go ahead by the government so it then becomes a case of being between a rock and a hard place. For me though the Command team should have sought to protect their officers from the situation we are seeing now and they could have quite easily done so even if it meant changing the policing style and upsetting Whitehall. Legitimatacy is key.
 

TheReligion

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One cop is guilty of this crime, it isn't noticeable that all cops are closing ranks and earning the epithet , it looks like there are some people wanting to hijack the vigil for their own agenda just as some will try to hijack this convo which would be a shame.
It's a bloody disaster and was totally avoidable. Baffling leadership.
 

oates

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It's a bloody disaster and was totally avoidable. Baffling leadership.
Totally different topic but I am for my own reasons completely fed to the back teeth with people over the last year deciding for themselves when it is appropriate for them despite whatever restrictions are in force which are meant to be protecting as large a group as possible from being infected and dying during this pandemic. Why should the rules apply any differently here? All decent people are discussing the terrible, horrendous murder and the consequent effects on one half of the population from men who behave abhorrently towards them but meanwhile there is something else going on which bear some importance.

Now, we can see various clips of the police attempting to break this meeting up, is there yet any evidence apart from the headings accompanying these clips that show the police behaving brutally or inappropriately? If so then that is wrong of course or are they being forced into hard confrontations by a sector of those at the meeting or next choice, are the police just doing their jobs under difficult circumstances from the crowd and above?

Sorry to have to join in the taking of this convo off topic.
 

TheReligion

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Totally different topic but I am for my own reasons completely fed to the back teeth with people over the last year deciding for themselves when it is appropriate for them despite whatever restrictions are in force which are meant to be protecting as large a group as possible from being infected and dying during this pandemic. Why should the rules apply any differently here? All decent people are discussing the terrible, horrendous murder and the consequent effects on one half of the population from men who behave abhorrently towards them but meanwhile there is something else going on which bear some importance.

Now, we can see various clips of the police attempting to break this meeting up, is there yet any evidence apart from the headings accompanying these clips that show the police behaving brutally or inappropriately? If so then that is wrong of course or are they being forced into hard confrontations by a sector of those at the meeting or next choice, are the police just doing their jobs under difficult circumstances from the crowd and above?

Sorry to have to join in the taking of this convo off topic.
No I agree with regards to people picking and choosing which regulations they follow and what's more important when it suits. Very frustrating and very difficult to police as you're hung out to dry whatever action/inaction you take. In this situation I just don't see how the police can win.

My thoughts are senior leadership should have made the bold decision to avoid confrontation at all costs though. Losing legitimacy through lack of confidence is very hard to get back and it was obvious there would be a cluster of people at this vigil purely to ignite hostility to the police under the circumstances. I'd of got COVID marshals in to lead it and had the police back off, even if that too would attract criticism for not preventing the illegal gathering. They should have put their officers first.
 

oates

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No I agree with regards to people picking and choosing which regulations they follow and what's more important when it suits. Very frustrating and very difficult to police as you're hung out to dry whatever action/inaction you take. In this situation I just don't see how the police can win.

My thoughts are senior leadership should have made the bold decision to avoid confrontation at all costs though. Losing legitimacy through lack of confidence is very hard to get back and it was obvious there would be a cluster of people at this vigil purely to ignite hostility to the police under the circumstances. I'd of got COVID marshals in to lead it and had the police back off, even if that too would attract criticism for not preventing the illegal gathering. They should have put their officers first.
Appreciate you agree with my bugbear however we're still left with the second half of my post.

Is it perhaps a bit early to judge the barbaric brutality of the police attending or are people already using the opportunity to claim such? I have to say I fail to see the blood dripping, baton gashes on foreheads etc......
 

esmufc07

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Cressida Dick should resign. I’d imagine the pressure will mount in the coming days.
 

TheReligion

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Appreciate you agree with my bugbear however we're still left with the second half of my post.

Is it perhaps a bit early to judge the barbaric brutality of the police attending or are people already using the opportunity to claim such? I have to say I fail to see the blood dripping, baton gashes on foreheads etc......
I didn't want to comment on the other bit as I've not seen much footage to be honest Oates. It's already being framed though so the truth will be irrelevant by tomorrow.
 

sullydnl

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The truth is that because the murderer was a police officer and because there is suspicion that his prior instance of indecent exposure wasn't handled appropriately by the police, pretty much any intervention by them at this vigil would be viewed very negatively.

Once you have images like the one of the red-haired women being restrained, the police have lost.
 

oates

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Once you have images like the one of the red-haired women being restrained, the police have lost.
What was wrong with how she was restrained?
 

esmufc07

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Is it perhaps a bit early to judge the barbaric brutality of the police attending or are people already using the opportunity to claim such? I have to say I fail to see the blood dripping, baton gashes on foreheads etc......
It’s all optics isn’t it? A metropolitan police officer has been arrested for murdering a woman who was walking home and they decide to start arresting women who were holding a vigil for her. I just don’t know why the police were authorised to go, it was only ever going to go one way.
 

sullydnl

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What was wrong with how she was restrained?
Quite possibly nothing. But because people were primed to take against the police due to the circumstances of the case, even fair use of reasonable force was inevitably going to prompt a backlash. At which point leadership should probably ask themselves if intervention will help more than it will inflame the situation.
 

arnie_ni

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I just don’t know why the police were authorised to go, it was only ever going to go one way.
Didn't a judge say the protest/vigil wasn't allowed?

I actually thought they said it was cancelled on the news this morning after the court ruling, to stop this exact thing, people being arrested and fined.
 

oates

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It’s all optics isn’t it? A metropolitan police officer has been arrested for murdering a woman who was walking home and they decide to start arresting women who were holding a vigil for her. I just don’t know why the police were authorised to go, it was only ever going to go one way.
Well Elvis, from your post it could be safe to say that from here on in anytime anyone wants to disobey the current pandemic regulations then all they do is put a woman front and centre and bob's your uncle, the Police must back off. I'd still like to know why it is important to give the people attending this vigil a pass.

Quite possibly nothing. But because people were primed to take against the police due to the circumstances of the case, even fair use of reasonable force was inevitably going to prompt a backlash. At which point leadership should probably ask themselves if intervention will help more than it will inflame the situation.
I think all in all since we have a serving police officer agreeing that there was a different way to address this then I cannot disagree but yet again, the people decide for themselves when or if to obey the regulations. That if the Police can be made to look bad then they should be perfectly able to do what they like. This way leads to anarchy.
I think she's the one in this video on the front left, red hair with black face mask and black hoodie.

... and was she complying with a legal police request? Was she complying? She'd certainly made her point by being there, maybe time to comply with the Police?
 

Olly Gunnar Solskjær

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... and was she complying with a legal police request? Was she complying? She'd certainly made her point by being there, maybe time to comply with the Police?
She was standing there peacefully, I don't agree with her being dragged to the ground and having multiple police officers sitting on her sorry.
 

esmufc07

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Well Elvis, from your post it could be safe to say that from here on in anytime anyone wants to disobey the current pandemic regulations then all they do is put a woman front and centre and bob's your uncle, the Police must back off. I'd still like to know why it is important to give the people attending this vigil a pass.
So the police should have fined every single person who attended? Seeing as the stay at home order is still in effect.
 

SalfordRed18

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Didn't a judge say the protest/vigil wasn't allowed?

I actually thought they said it was cancelled on the news this morning after the court ruling, to stop this exact thing, people being arrested and fined.
It was "cancelled" this morning to stop the organisers being fined.

It was always still going go ahead.
 

SalfordRed18

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... and was she complying with a legal police request? Was she complying? She'd certainly made her point by being there, maybe time to comply with the Police?
Bold statement when you consider the past week. Infact when you consider the past year really.
 

oates

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She was standing there peacefully, I don't agree with her being dragged to the ground and having multiple police officers sitting on her sorry.
OK, however while standing there peacefully was she complying with the instructions to leave?

We can go back and forth but this just allows the discussion to be hijacked and I have no further desire to join in. It is as usual an agenda that no-one has an alternative operating organisation to prefer.

So the police should have fined every single person who attended? Seeing as the stay at home order is still in effect.
Why not? Were they there legally? Again, we're seeing politicians answers here avoiding the questions, why should we expect any better?
Bold statement when you consider the past week. Infact when you consider the past year really.
It was a question, one that everyone would move heaven and earth not to answer honestly.
 

SalfordRed18

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OK, however while standing there peacefully was she complying with the instructions to leave?

We can go back and forth but this just allows the discussion to be hijacked and I have no further desire to join in. It is as usual an agenda that no-one has an alternative operating organisation to prefer.


Why not? Were they there legally? Again, we're seeing politicians answers here avoiding the questions, why should we expect any better?

It was a question, one that everyone would move heaven and earth not to answer honestly.
Personally, the "did they comply" argument always leaves a bad taste in the mouth. It assumes an officer is always in the right which they're not. A woman who this girl can relate to was kidnapped and murdered by a police officer only a few yards away. Rather than talking about whether she complied or not, maybe we ought to be talking about the approach the police officers took, especially considering to my knowledge, there were no issues at the other vigils.
 

esmufc07

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Why not? Were they there legally? Again, we're seeing politicians answers here avoiding the questions, why should we expect any better?
No they were not there legally and by the letter of the law every person there should have been given a fine. I hope the next vigil they hold more police officers are sent to deal with those breaking the law.
 

arnie_ni

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Peaceful Protest should be allowed in a democracy.

That's the take.
Of course they should, that's not the issue at hand is it?

It's breaking covid guidelines.

Like anything, this isn't just black and white, there was no way to do the right thing here.
 

oates

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Personally, the "did they comply" argument always leaves a bad taste in the mouth. It assumes an officer is always in the right which they're not. A woman who this girl can relate to was kidnapped and murdered by a police officer only a few yards away. Rather than talking about whether she complied or not, maybe we ought to be talking about the approach the police officers took, especially considering to my knowledge, there were no issues at the other vigils.
As hopefully a last reply on the subject, we are expected to comply with a legally stated police order, otherwise we are resisting and in this case, and I appreciate your sentiments however they are just that, we are under restrictions not to congregate. We either 'comply' or we are saying that we know better and as I've said before this only leads to anarchy and the shop windows going in during future protests, agendas not the protesters original aims and consequently looting. Meanwhile, the current restrictions are about saving lives not taking one.
 

JMack1234

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Of course they should, that's not the issue at hand is it?

It's breaking covid guidelines.

Like anything, this isn't just black and white, there was no way to do the right thing here.
So you don't think peaceful protest should be allowed at the moment?

It isn't black & white because the Police have been pragmatic about protests during the pandemic. However, they've nonsensically decided to crack down on this one and have achieved nothing except make themselves look terrible.

Out of interest, when you would deem it acceptable for citizens to be permitted to protest again?
 

izzydiggler

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So you don't think peaceful protest should be allowed at the moment?
Well no and it really isn’t hard to understand. A few months ago I couldn’t have my family over for Christmas and since then, pubs and restaurants have been shut...I’m not even allowed to have coffee with a single friend indoors.

It‘s like people are purposely ignoring reality.
 

JMack1234

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Well no and it really isn’t hard to understand. A few months ago I couldn’t have my family over for Christmas and since then, pubs and restaurants have been shut...I’m not even allowed to have coffee with a single friend indoors.

It‘s like people are purposely ignoring reality.
Personally I think peaceful protest is so important in a Liberal Democracy that it's in a different category to having mates around at Christmas or going to the pub but I see your point.

Also, I respect you being honest about not wanting protests to happen at this time and not dancing around the issue.
 

arnie_ni

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So you don't think peaceful protest should be allowed at the moment?

It isn't black & white because the Police have been pragmatic about protests during the pandemic. However, they've nonsensically decided to crack down on this one and have achieved nothing except make themselves look terrible.

Out of interest, when you would deem it acceptable for citizens to be permitted to protest again?
Due to covid, no I don't.

Whenever its deemed acceptable to return to normalcy by those in charge. Hopefully sooner rather than later with the vaccine rollout.
 

JMack1234

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Due to covid, no I don't.

Whenever its deemed acceptable to return to normalcy by those in charge. Hopefully sooner rather than later with the vaccine rollout.
Fair enough,

I disagree, but I respect those who are honest. I don't think COVID should require us to give up our democratic norms.