Sarah Everard disappearance | PC Wayne Couzens has been charged with her kidnap and murder

arnie_ni

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Fair enough,

I disagree, but I respect those who are honest. I don't think COVID should require us to give up our democratic norms.
You'll not get much push back from me because in principle I agree that nothing should require giving up democratic norms.

I just think the reality of the current situation is it shouldn't be happening due to this world wide pandemic that we are so close to getting out the other side of.

It's probably selfish in fairness.
 

SalfordRed18

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I don't know what happened but it seems as if the police let people gather before arresting people. That strikes me as half in, either let them gather and do it or don't let them gather at all.

I'm also not opposed to be people being given fines either. It is against the rules and don't think anyones denying that.

Essentially, whatever way you look at it, they should have handled it better at a time where all eyes were on them.
 
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JMack1234

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You'll not get much push back from me because in principle I agree that nothing should require giving up democratic norms.

I just think the reality of the current situation is it shouldn't be happening due to this world wide pandemic that we are so close to getting out the other side of.

It's probably selfish in fairness.
No, I see your point and obviously all of us wish there was no need for a vigil.

However, in my view there are certain non-negotiables in a democracy and the right to peaceful protest is one of them.
 

cj_sparky

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Sad thing is it seemed the organisers of the proposed vigil that was cancelled, after the matter went through the courts. Had actually tried to plan it in the right way, the organiser had spoken of taking into account social distancing and obtaining a track and trace QR code for the event. I think it most likely would have gone a lot more peacefully.
 

izzydiggler

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Personally I think peaceful protest is so important in a Liberal Democracy that it's in a different category to having mates around at Christmas or going to the pub but I see your point.

Also, I respect you being honest about not wanting protests to happen at this time and not out dancing around the issue.
I agree that it’s important but really I think it boils down to the fact a virus doesn’t differentiate between an anti-rapist march and a Nigel Farage appreciation society party.

Simply put, the rules are (relatively) clear...and for good reason.
 

Eyepopper

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Yeah, having had to stay at home while my wife buried her father last month, it's sort of hard to feel any sort of sympathy towards people who were told to stay at home but decided not to.
 

oates

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Personally I think peaceful protest is so important in a Liberal Democracy that it's in a different category to having mates around at Christmas or going to the pub but I see your point.

Also, I respect you being honest about not wanting protests to happen at this time and not dancing around the issue.
With no constitution, an hereditary monarchy and no way of debating in favour or not of either we are very far from being a 'Liberal Democracy' however I did find this post entertaining in its implications surrounding honesty and dancing around the issue. I'd like to think that the majority of people on here would attest to my straight talking.

If anything with a debate and vote about to be taken further limiting the right to gather in numbers and 'protest' being held this next week, what has gone on today in not abiding by safety regulations which are good enough for some but not others has done Sweet Fanny Adams in the manner of aiding your stated importances. I hope that is honest enough for you and not engaged in any slanderous dance around the issues.

;)
 

Widow

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We do have a constitution, it's just unwritten as apposed to a single document
 
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This was from a Trafalgar protest, like the top picture.



Granted, anti-maskers are feckwits but there was almost unanimous praise in my timeline (which is majority lib, some leftist) for police breaking up this 'protest' due to COVID restrictions. I hate even legitimatising it by calling it a protest instead of a tantrum...but yeah...

It's an awkward situation. I support the right to protest...encourage it actually...but the social contract we have with each other over COVID has to be factored in. How do you explain to a person who's mum died alone and was buried alone - as was the case early in the pandemic for many families - that this is acceptable but attending her funeral wasn't? Likewise for hundreds of other things, big and small, that we've all endured this past year.
 
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UmbroDays

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The issue here is that most males would probably say the same about their close circle of friends. And yet still, harassment, assault and rape still happen frequently. It doesn't add up.
I've edited this post completely.

I'm an ally so I'll educate where I can and internally look.
 
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SilentWitness

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As expected this situation has turned into an absolute mess because of the Twitter mob.

All I can think of is what her family thinks or is going through currently. Were they even at or involved within the organisation of the vigil? If not, I personally find that rather vile.
 

Wumminator

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As expected this situation has turned into an absolute mess because of the Twitter mob.

All I can think of is what her family thinks or is going through currently. Were they even at or involved within the organisation of the vigil? If not, I personally find that rather vile.
yes. I also blame everything on Twitter.
 

Grinner

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I suspect that being his partner/wife she possibly attempted to give Couzens a false alibi and was thus 'perverting the course of justice' or some other. I'm sure she'll go to trial.

It's an interesting dynamic in this awful crime. It's probably not a stretch to think that she suffered at his hands too. I'm sure it will come out that she is a victim too. Not that it can excuse trying to cover up a murder.
 

redshaw

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Yes I don't think it really spreads outdoors but this is based on older strains and probably less conducive weather and people carrying less colds and runny noses. People and authorities are on edge with the supposedly more contagious new strains and the last 3-4 months have been horrendous for cases and deaths. It's only 8 to 12 weeks ago this Kent strain exploded around the UK to deliver a much worse second wave.
 
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bsCallout

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In some ways it doesn't.

As a man I don't always feel safe walking home at night, I'm aware that I could turn the corner and a bunch of guys could take my phone and wallet off me. However, I've never been worried than I'm going get raped or murdered or both on my way home.

That's the difference.
It's not just a concern of losing possessions, it's a concern about having your head kicked in or stabbed to death. Just don't want women thinking we all just skip along in the dark without a care in the world.
 

Mb194dc

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Surely it's the government fault. The law says such a gathering is illegal?

What are the police meant to do? They are there to enforce the law. The law is the problem if we're arguing the vigil should be allowed, not the police.

The police should never be put in a position to have to decide which laws to enforce, totally ludicrous.
 

Silva

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Surely it's the government fault. The law says such a gathering is illegal?

What are the police meant to do? They are there to enforce the law. The law is the problem if we're arguing the vigil should be allowed, not the police.

The police should never be put in a position to have to decide which laws to enforce, totally ludicrous.
just following orders
 

Red00012

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This was from a Trafalgar protest, like the top picture.



Granted, anti-maskers are feckwits but there was almost unanimous praise in my timeline (which is majority lib, some leftist) for police breaking up this 'protest' due to COVID restrictions. I hate even legitimatising it by calling it a protest instead of a tantrum...but yeah...

It's an awkward situation. I support the right to protest...encourage it actually...but the social contract we have with each other over COVID has to be factored in. How do you explain to a person who's mum died alone and was buried alone - as was the case early in the pandemic for many families - that this is acceptable but attending her funeral wasn't? Likewise for hundreds of other things, big and small, that we've all endured this past year.
This is the whole point of the protesting I’m thinking
 

That'sHernandez

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It's not just a concern of losing possessions, it's a concern about having your head kicked in or stabbed to death. Just don't want women thinking we all just skip along in the dark without a care in the world.
Yeah but a man hasn’t just been kidnapped and murdered has he?
 

Widow

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Surely it's the government fault. The law says such a gathering is illegal?

What are the police meant to do? They are there to enforce the law. The law is the problem if we're arguing the vigil should be allowed, not the police.

The police should never be put in a position to have to decide which laws to enforce, totally ludicrous.
The police should enforce all law, it's ourselves that think we can decide what law to abide to or not. That's ludicrous!
 

Widow

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Yeah but a man hasn’t just been kidnapped and murdered has he?
Yes, a few over the last week with zero press coverage.

This is on the news because it was a police officer and the virtue signaling band boarded the train.
 

bsCallout

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Yeah but a man hasn’t just been kidnapped and murdered has he?
That's beside the point. Just clearing up that us men don't skip through the streets at night, it's not just women who are wary at night. Pretty sure I can find you a young man who was stabbed this week though if you want to go down that route.
 

Buster15

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No, I see your point and obviously all of us wish there was no need for a vigil.

However, in my view there are certain non-negotiables in a democracy and the right to peaceful protest is one of them.
Yes. And it is in law a Human Right.
Something the Police know very well.
 

Buster15

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Surely it's the government fault. The law says such a gathering is illegal?

What are the police meant to do? They are there to enforce the law. The law is the problem if we're arguing the vigil should be allowed, not the police.

The police should never be put in a position to have to decide which laws to enforce, totally ludicrous.
But they do it every day.
 

esmufc07

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Surely it's the government fault. The law says such a gathering is illegal?

What are the police meant to do? They are there to enforce the law. The law is the problem if we're arguing the vigil should be allowed, not the police.

The police should never be put in a position to have to decide which laws to enforce, totally ludicrous.
The police could quite easily have been told not to intervene and not to inflame the situation. All they’ve served to do is further damage the relationship between themselves and the public and guarantee further protests.
 

Classical Mechanic

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The police could quite easily have been told not to intervene and not to inflame the situation. All they’ve served to do is further damage the relationship between themselves and the public and guarantee further protests.
Was it not health and safety? Not allowing people to gather on the bandstand which is a small enclosed space which could lead to crushing if more of the crowd got on it?
 

TheReligion

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Yeah, having had to stay at home while my wife buried her father last month, it's sort of hard to feel any sort of sympathy towards people who were told to stay at home but decided not to.
I'm sorry for your family loss Popper. I've been away from her so may have missed it. Hope you are all doing okay and if you need a chat just drop me a line.
 

That'sHernandez

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That's beside the point. Just clearing up that us men don't skip through the streets at night, it's not just women who are wary at night. Pretty sure I can find you a young man who was stabbed this week though if you want to go down that route.
It’s not besides the point. It’s just the classic ‘but what about men’? It’s the same as saying ‘all lives matter’.
 
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Mb194dc

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But they do it every day.
Doesn't make it right.

The police cannot make political decisions.

If they're enforcing the law against one kind of gathering they must do it against all of them. Even for a worthy cause.

If the police are not enforcing a law at all, they should be kicking it back to the government to sort. The question being should the law be changed or removed entirely.
 

Buster15

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Doesn't make it right.

The police cannot make political decisions.

If they're enforcing the law against one kind of gathering they must do it against all of them. Even for a worthy cause.

If the police are not enforcing a law at all, they should be kicking it back to the government to sort. The question being should the law be changed or removed entirely.
Completely agree.
What I am saying is that the police forces make choices about what crimes they are and are not going to investigate.
Yes of course I am aware they have had cuts.
But don't forget that the massive Council Tax increases over the recent years have had significantly higher increases specially for the police. In addition, the government has committed to increase funding for the police.
And have we seen any improvements?
 

JMack1234

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With no constitution, an hereditary monarchy and no way of debating in favour or not of either we are very far from being a 'Liberal Democracy' however I did find this post entertaining in its implications surrounding honesty and dancing around the issue. I'd like to think that the majority of people on here would attest to my straight talking.

If anything with a debate and vote about to be taken further limiting the right to gather in numbers and 'protest' being held this next week, what has gone on today in not abiding by safety regulations which are good enough for some but not others has done Sweet Fanny Adams in the manner of aiding your stated importances. I hope that is honest enough for you and not engaged in any slanderous dance around the issues.

;)
We have a Constitution, it just isn't codified in a single document.
 

Conor

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I'm sure loads of the attendees are delighted the police did what they did, they now have their prize worthy 'being restrained while fighting the power' images that can be posted into oblivion on their social media accounts, and blown up and put on their walls at home.
 

Eire Red United

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I'm sure loads of the attendees are delighted the police did what they did, they now have their prize worthy 'being restrained while fighting the power' images that can be posted into oblivion on their social media accounts, and blown up and put on their walls at home.
Strange take on it.