SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness or memes please)

T00lsh3d

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Maagge

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What is the logic behind the beef people have with wearing masks?
If you read the replies to the guy off Twitter earlier you'll see. It's stuff like "people are sheep for wearing one, and will no doubt line up first for a coming vaccine". It all has undertones of not trusting the government and thinking it'll end in some dystopian zombie society.

I understand not trusting the tory government, but it's a bit far out.
A long time ago I also mentioned something along the lines of trust in government (or civil obedience or whatever it's called) correlating with how well a country has done with regards to covid. It might be more of that on display here.
 

redshaw

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UK 27 deaths and 726 cases.

481 deaths in total, 599 last week so still coming down but cases not.
 

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Thanks all.

Been away from this thread a while. I genuinely expected there to be ‘some’ kind of reasoning behind it, even if it was flawed. Overestimating humanity again
Well, I think it is not as simple as the other posters wrote. One side of it is a misguided feeling of freedom being taken away, but another is that a lot of those not wearing masks feel that the entire thing is being blown out of proportion or even that it is all a big hoax.

This does not make then any less thick,however.
 

T00lsh3d

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Well, I think it is not as simple as the other posters wrote. One side of it is a misguided feeling of freedom being taken away, but another is that a lot of those not wearing masks feel that the entire thing is being blown out of proportion or even that it is all a big hoax.

This does not make then any less thick,however.
I don’t get the freedom taken away part, especially considering we’ve just had lockdown.....where freedoms actually were taken away. Seems strange to be objecting to masks now.
As for people thinking it’s a hoax, I’d expect there to maybe be a few loonies around that do, but even most of them must have woken up to the reality by now
 

utdalltheway

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I don’t get the freedom taken away part, especially considering we’ve just had lockdown.....where freedoms actually were taken away. Seems strange to be objecting to masks now.
As for people thinking it’s a hoax, I’d expect there to maybe be a few loonies around that do, but even most of them must have woken up to the reality by now
Around here it’s the ones saying that it’s a north Orange County problem so why does south Orange County have to have closures, wear masks, etc.
 

Pogue Mahone

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I am reading about monoclonal antibodies being a potential treatment. Could someone please explain why a drug would take many years to determine safety, but these antibodies can be authorised for use sooner? And how tough is it to scale this treatment?
I don’t think a monoclonal antibody will get approved much quicker than a normal drug. Re scaling. It’s expensive but the best selling drug in the world was recently a monoclonal antibody, so large scale manufacturing is clearly possible.
 

Stack

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There were conflicting messages on Masks here in NZ early on, wondering if that was a problem elsewhere. The official line from our Chief Scientist was that there was inconclusive data on the effectiveness of masks. The argument back then was that there was a possibility the public would be more likely to touch their face if wearing a mask and that was the main danger of infection. Also there were concerns from officials that the public wouldnt dispose of used masks in a clinical method.
Looking back I think its a case here where those in charge didnt trust the public enough to use and dispose of masks effectively. Possibly a case of Govt lacking faith in its citizens. The mask debate here never really took off because we were able to get rid of the virus from community transmission so early.
I think if/when we get the virus back masks will become mandatory judging by signals from our officials now. Its one of those evolving things for many of us. Now it seems like a no brainer to me but 3 months ago I didnt believe it was essential. I did use masks early on but not because of trying to stop infection, as I had bought into what our officials were telling us. I wore them mostly because I knew many in the community were very anxious about the virus and felt by wearing it I played a tiny tiny part in helping reduce anxiety. If/when the virus does make it into the community here again I will be wearing a mask and make it a simple life habit.
 

WI_Red

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I don’t think a monoclonal antibody will get approved much quicker than a normal drug. Re scaling. It’s expensive but the best selling drug in the world was recently a monoclonal antibody, so large scale manufacturing is clearly possible.
Yeah. Scaling is the issue with most biologics. Small molecule drugs (think aspirin, penicillin,, basically every drug before 2015ish) are relatively “easy” to scale up on production. Once you figure out the chemistry to produce the molecule you want it is relatively straight forward. Additionally, QA on the drug can be done with mass spectrometry and dose response testing and, again, is relatively straight forward.
Biologics (basically protein based drugs, including monoclonal antibodies) require a much more intricate production cycle and QA is not only “is this the right protein sequence” but also does this production lot maintain an efficacy within the norms. This last part can be a bitch as most tests until recently have been homebrew.

So to answer the original question I would be shocked if a de novo biologic got to market before a small molecule (unless there are no good SM candidates).
 

Wibble

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I am reading about monoclonal antibodies being a potential treatment. Could someone please explain why a drug would take many years to determine safety, but these antibodies can be authorised for use sooner? And how tough is it to scale this treatment?
Not an expert but think the limitations are that it could treat, and to a lesser degree prevent, SARS-CoV-2 caused illness but won't give an ongoing immune response. I also think there are often quite a few side-effects. I believe once developed they are cheap and easy to produce although I have no idea how perishable/transportable they are, but they could be particularly important until we get a vaccine.

Edit: more informed opinion in the above post.
 

WI_Red

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Not an expert but think the limitations are that it could treat, and to a lesser degree prevent, SARS-CoV-2 caused illness but won't give an ongoing immune response. I also think there are often quite a few side-effects. I believe once developed they are cheap and easy to produce although I have no idea how perishable/transportable they are, but they could be particularly important until we get a vaccine.

Edit: more informed opinion in the above post.
You pretty much nailed it as far as I know in your first part. I would expect it would only be a treatment with no lasting protection. Also, side effects are not uncommon with biologics, but small molecule drugs have them too. Just different flavors of a potentially deadly/life saving pill.

Production is not necessarily hard or even expensive per se. we have been making protein in vitro and in vivo for decades. The issue really is that QA step. You first need to confirm that the lot was translated correctly, then that it folded correctly, then (if required) that the post translational modifications (phosphorylation, acetylation, etc) happened correctly, and THEN you need to confirm the antibody still works. Many of these monoclonal drugs operate by inviting the immune system over for a “kill this cell” party at a target cell. So this means the test needs to be a measurement of cell killing mediated by the antibody (read up on ADCC if you are a science nerd or want to sleep. Or ACDC if you want. Either works for me.)
 

zing

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I don’t think a monoclonal antibody will get approved much quicker than a normal drug. Re scaling. It’s expensive but the best selling drug in the world was recently a monoclonal antibody, so large scale manufacturing is clearly possible.
Not an expert but think the limitations are that it could treat, and to a lesser degree prevent, SARS-CoV-2 caused illness but won't give an ongoing immune response. I also think there are often quite a few side-effects. I believe once developed they are cheap and easy to produce although I have no idea how perishable/transportable they are, but they could be particularly important until we get a vaccine.

Edit: more informed opinion in the above post.
Thanks for the replies.

https://bgr.com/2020/07/18/coronavi...nal-antibody-drugs-fauci-comments-zuckerberg/
https://www.fiercepharma.com/manufa...u-s-government-for-covid-19-antibody-cocktail


This is what I am referring to where experts(Fauci now, Scott Gottlieb earlier) seem to be saying said it could be a bridge to a vaccine.

They seem to be saying it will be available for large scale use later this year
 

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I don’t get the freedom taken away part, especially considering we’ve just had lockdown.....where freedoms actually were taken away. Seems strange to be objecting to masks now.
As for people thinking it’s a hoax, I’d expect there to maybe be a few loonies around that do, but even most of them must have woken up to the reality by now
You would be surprised.

I just finished looking at the Facebook wall of a colleague, a programmer, intelligent guy. It is littered with posts about the virus being a hoax to chip us and about masks being ineffective and a way for big pharma to earn billions.

At the end of the day, it is much less scary for a big conspiracy to be in the works than for a deadly virus to be on the loose and this is why emotional thinkers will always lean towards such explanations.
 

Sarni

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You would be surprised.

I just finished looking at the Facebook wall of a colleague, a programmer, intelligent guy. It is littered with posts about the virus being a hoax to chip us and about masks being ineffective and a way for big pharma to earn billions.

At the end of the day, it is much less scary for a big conspiracy to be in the works than for a deadly virus to be on the loose and this is why emotional thinkers will always lean towards such explanations.
Yeah half of my FB wall is like that these days. Not people I know because I've deleted anyone who would have posted that crap but people commenting on news/updates.

As for masks, a lot of people here believe they are detrimental to your health and cause you more problems long term than covid-19 would have.
 

Beans

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There were conflicting messages on Masks here in NZ early on, wondering if that was a problem elsewhere. The official line from our Chief Scientist was that there was inconclusive data on the effectiveness of masks. The argument back then was that there was a possibility the public would be more likely to touch their face if wearing a mask and that was the main danger of infection. Also there were concerns from officials that the public wouldnt dispose of used masks in a clinical method.
Looking back I think its a case here where those in charge didnt trust the public enough to use and dispose of masks effectively. Possibly a case of Govt lacking faith in its citizens. The mask debate here never really took off because we were able to get rid of the virus from community transmission so early.
I think if/when we get the virus back masks will become mandatory judging by signals from our officials now. Its one of those evolving things for many of us. Now it seems like a no brainer to me but 3 months ago I didnt believe it was essential. I did use masks early on but not because of trying to stop infection, as I had bought into what our officials were telling us. I wore them mostly because I knew many in the community were very anxious about the virus and felt by wearing it I played a tiny tiny part in helping reduce anxiety. If/when the virus does make it into the community here again I will be wearing a mask and make it a simple life habit.
The US got the same message, though we also had no stockpile for frontline workers so the commercial stocks were needed for them. But the details were lost beneath "don't wear masks" headlines and it's caused great damage. The right wing conspiracy media has made this a disaster though.
 

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I think some of you are being kind to the non mask wearers in suggesting they're working off false information. If you look at who is less likely to wear a mask in the UK there's definitely a huge element of machoism about it all.
 

SilentWitness

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Everyone that I’ve seen who isn’t adhering to the mandatory mask policies in shops in Scotland (pretty rare though) has had a look of “I dare you to confront me about now wearing a mask”.
 

Solius

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Thanks all.

Been away from this thread a while. I genuinely expected there to be ‘some’ kind of reasoning behind it, even if it was flawed. Overestimating humanity again
Some people exist purely to go against the grain. If there was no pandemic and they banned face coverings these people would be the ones wearing them.
 

Solius

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Everyone that I’ve seen who isn’t adhering to the mandatory mask policies in shops in Scotland (pretty rare though) has had a look of “I dare you to confront me about now wearing a mask”.
Same energy as people who go on nights out looking for a fight.
 

Wibble

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You pretty much nailed it as far as I know in your first part. I would expect it would only be a treatment with no lasting protection. Also, side effects are not uncommon with biologics, but small molecule drugs have them too. Just different flavors of a potentially deadly/life saving pill.

Production is not necessarily hard or even expensive per se. we have been making protein in vitro and in vivo for decades. The issue really is that QA step. You first need to confirm that the lot was translated correctly, then that it folded correctly, then (if required) that the post translational modifications (phosphorylation, acetylation, etc) happened correctly, and THEN you need to confirm the antibody still works. Many of these monoclonal drugs operate by inviting the immune system over for a “kill this cell” party at a target cell. So this means the test needs to be a measurement of cell killing mediated by the antibody (read up on ADCC if you are a science nerd or want to sleep. Or ACDC if you want. Either works for me.)
You know I'm now going to have to do that reading. I can't help myself. I sometimes miss biology.
 

Pogue Mahone

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-53467022

This seems really good news
Better treatments have got relatively little coverage compared to vaccines but in the short term these type of advances are huge
Repurposing existing drugs (which they’ve done here) also speeds up licensing and means we can hit the ground running when it comes to manufacturing. Although nebulising a drug which is supposed to be injected might cause unpredictable safety concerns. So they’ll need much larger studies before we know if this is really much use. Encouraging early results though. Will be keeping an eye out for the publication.
 

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Repurposing existing drugs (which they’ve done here) also speeds up licensing and means we can hit the ground running when it comes to manufacturing. Although nebulising a drug which is supposed to be injected might cause unpredictable safety concerns. So they’ll need much larger studies before we know if this is really much use. Encouraging early results though. Will be keeping an eye out for the publication.
Most of the pertinent stuff is here
https://www.synairgen.com/covid-19/

The findings are promising sure. Bizarrely on numerous wards there has been an erroneous stigma about covid (or query covid) patients and nebulisers being aerosol-generating when they aren't. So should be able to roll out to larger number of patients (either as part of a trial or therapeutically) without the higher tier PPE in non-ITU covid wards,
 

Pogue Mahone

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Most of the pertinent stuff is here
https://www.synairgen.com/covid-19/

The findings are promising sure. Bizarrely on numerous wards there has been an erroneous stigma about covid (or query covid) patients and nebulisers being aerosol-generating when they aren't. So should be able to roll out to larger number of patients (either as part of a trial or therapeutically) without the higher tier PPE in non-ITU covid wards,
Interesting to hear about the nebuliser stigma. Although it’s understandable, I guess. I’d say it’s hard to keep your cool when you see a covid patient bubbling away with plumes of vapour coming out of their facemask!

Thanks for the link. As expected, the 79% headline figure doesn’t give the full picture. Check out those confidence intervals:

79% for patients receiving SNG001 compared to patients who received placebo (OR 0.21 [95% CI 0.04-0.97]; p=0.046).
 

lynchie

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Interesting to hear about the nebuliser stigma. Although it’s understandable, I guess. I’d say it’s hard to keep your cool when you see a covid patient bubbling away with plumes of vapour coming out of their facemask!

Thanks for the link. As expected, the 79% headline figure doesn’t give the full picture. Check out those confidence intervals:
It's got to be tough to get statistically solid outcome from a trial of only 100 people - is there a way that they can get this added into the Recovery trial or similar to try and up the numbers?
 

Sparky_Hughes

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Some people never grow out of the toddler "don't tell me what to do" thing.
I can be a bit like this, Im way more inclined to do something if asked rather than told, and will generally buck against authority, but when it comes to something like masks, where there is a clear and obvious reason and social responsibility i dont understand why anyone wouldnt. Plus I get to go out looking like an outlaw, win win!!
 

Pogue Mahone

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It's got to be tough to get statistically solid outcome from a trial of only 100 people - is there a way that they can get this added into the Recovery trial or similar to try and up the numbers?
Sounds as though they’re going to progress to running their own Phase III. Which will have the numbers needed to squeeze those confidence intervals a bit closer together! In a way, I guess we should be impressed they reached statistical significance at all, with such small numbers.
 

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I can be a bit like this, Im way more inclined to do something if asked rather than told, and will generally buck against authority, but when it comes to something like masks, where there is a clear and obvious reason and social responsibility i dont understand why anyone wouldnt. Plus I get to go out looking like an outlaw, win win!!
It's great because you can stare at women's arses and they don't know what you're looking at because they can't see your eyes
 

Vidyoyo

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Reading today about Blackburn's cases being high and potentially going into local lockdown. Even the BBC acknowledged the poorer, cramped parts of the city are where most cases are emerging.

The UK gov are going to need to do a good PR job spinning this as there's a clear relationship with poverty.