Why wasn't there a rise in the middle of August then?
SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)
- Thread starter Don't Kill Bill
- Start date
They benefit when everyone else does. You’re missing the point, there was a huge number of people who would have been abroad and went on a “staycation“ instead and they were always going to be eating out. So what benefit was there to do it at the same time as this? It was just paying half of people’s bill who would have been there paying it all themselves regardless.
The scheme should have been delayed until there was a genuine lull and people needed encouraging out.
The problem with arguing that what I'm saying is unfounded conjecture is that you are quite willing to engage in it yourself in order to blame the government. You have no figures as to how many people have requested tests, never mind how many have or haven't got symptoms. So your argument is just as baseless. You simply don't know.
What I do know is that in Morrisons yesterday there was a literal 300 long queue of people with stacks of toilet roll...and if people are willing to panic in large numbers and drain resources over wiping their bum, I'm quite willing to assume they would do the same over the possibility of having a potentially deadly virus. I think to assume otherwise is a bit daft. It is natural human behaviour. I also know through my work that we have spare testing capacity where I am at least, but it is reserved for people who it's actually important to allow to get a test quickly. If you work in a hospital or caring for people you will get a test immediately. If I asked for one I would likely get one immediately. If you phone up saying your kid's school friend has a fever, then if testing is stretched you'll probably get put on a list or asked to drive to Aberdeen, or something ridiculous, because you are one in a category of potentially literally millions.
It's been obvious for a long while that testing is a vital element in any workable strategy at managing the virus, but the key thing here is that all you are doing is managing it. The more you are testing, the less management you can do unless you have the resources to track, trace, analyse, strategise, prioritise, etc. I'm not towingh any government line but I honestly don't know what you are expecting them to do about the testing problem. They've asked people to be responsible about when they ask for a test, which is quite an obvious thing to ask when the demand is high. They are pledging to increase capacity again I think at a rate that is if anything going to be difficult to actually meet.
It was never going to be any other month bar August. The ability to dine outside was as the hook to making that scheme work, and having the least amount of risk. Driving interaction in quieter months promoting further interaction indoors wouldn't be the best idea.
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/cases
If you look at August for the relative figures, there was an increase in cases as the month progressed. It won't look significant in comparison to the case numbers in Spring and this month, but since pubs opened in June and more-so the encouragement for dining in August there was an increase. It was a known entity anyway as more interactions happen, the case load increases.
I'm hopeful they'll do something like that at mine as the message has started sinking in that they can't just ignore mental health issues and that they also can't do a lot of what they need to with no one in the workplace. They've started losing people now to stress, motivation issues or simply handing their notice in. You don't need a full office or anything close to it but when we're talking medium/long term rather than a couple of months you can't just sit everyone at home and expect everything to tick over and everyone to be fine either.That's what I was hoping we were going to do at my place. The plan was that we could come in 1 day a week (optional) and then 2 days in November. Was/am still hoping it happens to give people a reprieve.
However, they also told me they're taking my desk away due to spacing issues and would put me on another floor so I'm not fussed anymore
Also yes to driving. I'm learning now and the roads are getting packed again.
Driving is two worlds for me. When the roads are quiet I actually find it helps me relax. When they're busy it does precisely the opposite
...how far are you into learning?Sorry but you're missing the point.
For many venues it was a lifeline and it's that simple. I don't really care about your mates in Cornwall and neither does the cafe in roehampton, or the small pub in Dudley, or the restaurant in Bradford. They were all rammed Monday to wednesday and haven't been as busy since.
As already said, there was always going to be a second peak so when exactly would have been appropriate for the scheme? And how many venues would have survived until then?
Yeah exactly this. It's not like they didn't know it would have some kind of impact both on case numbers and general atttitudes/behaviour. It's just that there is a balancing act going on and the obvious time to provide some aid to the economy and people's quality of life is when the risk and impact will be lowest.
I think it's a pretty big stretch to point to it as the reason why we have a spike now that Autumn is here. It's not as if without Eat out to Help out covid would have just decided to die out completely during August and we'd all be able to do what we like now.
Yeah, agreed. Obviously there’s been loads of mistakes throughout this thing (by all governments) but it’s hard to get too pissed off about the basic idea that we tried and get kids back in school and people spending money in pubs/restaurants when case numbers are low, even though the consequence was case numbers increasing. The alternative was not opening up at all. Which would have been unbearable for everyone.
Victoria only had 25 new cases yesterday and NSW zero community infection for the first time in ages, possibly ever. Border restrictions will begin to ease a bit soon and Melbourne may be able to come out of stage 4 lockdown in 2-4 weeks time. Very good news. Bad news is testing is down as people relax a bit.
My work just announced a voluntary staged return to work plan. My entire (small) department wants to remain at home and the take-up organisation wide looks like it will be sub 20%. Few want to go anywhere near public transport. The small cafe and restaurants in the centre of Sydney have been hammered - many are still closed due to a lack of demand - you feel very sorry for them.
You also tend to forget those like foreign students who are stranded here, often with no income. A mate of mine is feeding hundred of people a day from his church who would mostly go hungry otherwise. Disgraceful we have left them to fend for themselves.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09...down-international-students-struggle/12678544
The Federal Government are reverting to type using News Corp to attack Daniel Andrews, who has been bloody awesome, reversing unemployment payments to fund tax cuts for higher earners, cutting funding for renewables to fund new gas projects and generally being the bunch of evil clowns you would expect.
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/the-fee...n-premier-as-poll-shows-majority-supports-him
My work just announced a voluntary staged return to work plan. My entire (small) department wants to remain at home and the take-up organisation wide looks like it will be sub 20%. Few want to go anywhere near public transport. The small cafe and restaurants in the centre of Sydney have been hammered - many are still closed due to a lack of demand - you feel very sorry for them.
You also tend to forget those like foreign students who are stranded here, often with no income. A mate of mine is feeding hundred of people a day from his church who would mostly go hungry otherwise. Disgraceful we have left them to fend for themselves.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09...down-international-students-struggle/12678544
The Federal Government are reverting to type using News Corp to attack Daniel Andrews, who has been bloody awesome, reversing unemployment payments to fund tax cuts for higher earners, cutting funding for renewables to fund new gas projects and generally being the bunch of evil clowns you would expect.
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/the-fee...n-premier-as-poll-shows-majority-supports-him
Last edited:
What is the point of a 10pm curfew on pubs and restaurants?
What time do they currently stay open til?
I don’t understand how this moves the needle.
What time do they currently stay open til?
I don’t understand how this moves the needle.
Last edited:
It's a balance between the health of the nation and making sure we actually have a world to come out (of this pandemic) to.
But what’s the point between 10pm and 11pm?
Of course it is easy to criticise, because "eat out to help out" was such a stupid thing to do in the middle of a global pandemic. Encouraging people to sit in enclosed areas with no masks for prolonged periods of time. Increasing the spread of the virus at the tax payers expense. Increasing the spread builsing up to a serious autumn/winter lockdown.
"Take out to help out" at least would have been balancing fighting the pandemic with supporting the sector.
If you think it is purely conjecture that cold and flu symptons peak when large groups mix on return to school or university then I suggest you do some research.
Here is one example. But there are many others if you care to look into that. Instead of looking round Morrisons and deciding those people would ask for a Covid test while asymptomatic.
https://www.npr.org/sections/health...pandemics-hit-closing-schools-can-slow-spread
You are towing the government line because you are assuming that people are not being responsible with getting tested. I am asserting that you have no evidence to backup that claim. Am I incorrect? If so, please show me some.
The government failed to increase testing capacity in the 4 weeks prior to kids returning to school or achieve any of its daily testing targets in the earlier stages of the pandemic. Yet your default position for the poor availability of tests is to blame people for not being responsible.
https://www.gponline.com/gps-hit-testing-failures-covid-19-cases-rise/article/1693763
"...GPs fear problems with the testing system will leave the UK exposed at a time when cases are rising, with social interactions increasing after the pupils returned to school and with students set to return to universities in the coming weeks."
https://www.ft.com/content/45a559bd-ec00-426b-9f05-ac962ba49375
UK faces backlog of nearly 200,000 Covid-19 tests in government labs
Last edited:
I dont think take outs needed any help from the government as far as demand during lockdown was concerned.
Can see the logic in wanting to give restaurants a reason to exist, chefs and waiters a job to go back to, landlords some hope at getting their rent paid etc.
1 less hour for people to infect each other and perhaps the perception that people social distance even less well the more they drink will be true and also help. It won't stop a second wave but it will help even if only a little bit.
Last edited:
I’ve long been a fan of Masterchef Australia and through that seen how Australia’s restaurant and dining industry has transformed over last 5 years into perhaps being best in the world.
Presumably that all all been hammered by COVID-19?
Last edited:
Yes. Melbourne/Victoria even more so than others. Most major city centres elsewhere have become semi-ghost towns, Sydney in particular, and I think many small restaurants/take-away places that normally service office workers won't survive
I live in the inner west which has been far less hit than the city centre and even here the months of takeout only has resulted in a number of restaurants closing. Mainly older Italian places where the owners have decided to retire, probably just earlier than they would otherwise, and many restaurants in marginal locations who previously survived on cheap rent have just shut up shop,. Not idea if they are all gone permanently but still a very tough time to own a bar or restaurant any way you look at it. We are open again in NSW but with limited capacity allowed (about 40% I'd guess) so the pain isn't over and the Federal Government are rolling back their Jobkeeper program soon which may push more business to lay off staff or throw in the towel. We may have far fewer infections than most but it is still a shit show.
Last edited:
Interesting comments
The people who utterly ignored the previous rules will take no more notice of these ones.
The huge groups of students drinking in the streets without a care in the world will just do it in someone's living room instead.
The huge groups of students drinking in the streets without a care in the world will just do it in someone's living room instead.
Not obvious that there is any difference between the blue line or red line.
I can plot a steady exponential line with those numbers.
How do we manage to keep Coronavirus under check without drastic lockdown?
1. Preparedness
Advance awareness from Govt and general public, people here are very paranoia about these kind of things ever since SARS hit, most of the people here wear mask even on a normal day.
We still remember the SARS outbreak of 2003. After the outbreak, the government established a public health response mechanism for future similar crisis involving 124 action items. Some of these items already went into effect as early as last Dec and early Jan after we found out that some weird mini outbreak was going on in Wuhan late last year.
Despite warning the WHO numerous times earlier this year that this "little" situation would become the next SARS, they played it down as China reported that its only a small sample and it's under control.
I went to Guangzhou for a conference in Jan and was immediately called back the moment i touched down as my superior told me that shit is about to hit fan. If I remember correctly around 200k Taiwanese were called back during that period.
2. Travel Restrictions
- Travel alerts for incoming Mainland Chinese since Feb 1
- Ports closed to Cruise ships
- No entry for Chinese Nationals since Feb 7th and non-Citizens since mid March(Though we opened our border selectively and with strict protocol in June)
- 14 day mandatory quarantine upon arrival since late Feb
3. Extended School Break
Schools were closed for 2+ weeks for Lunar New Year Holiday(January 2020) and the break was extended another 2 weeks to prevent any Coronavirus spread. Schools have since resumed in March.
4. Surgical Mask Strategy
Initially, masks were sold out of stores by early Feb. Mask production was ramped up and subsidized by Govt, supply was rationed through pharmacies nationwide, and export was banned until June/July. Enough masks, hand sanitizers and related PPE are guaranteed to everyone and the price of masks is capped.
5. Contact Tracing
Any confirmed cases were thoroughly interviewed to trace potentially exposed persons. These people’s faces mandatory quarantined and all had cell phones tracked to ensure compliance. Those breaking quarantine faced heavy fines of up to USD35,000. There was a case where 1 confirmed carrier broke protocol and went clubbing, he was fined and the authority managed to trace around 100 people that were in close contact with him and tested everyone of them within 1 week. Actually a majority of them reported themselves to the authority after they found out that they went to the same place with the carrier.
6. Culture
Most families have supplies of masks at home and everyone was ready to practice important habits like mask wearing, social distancing, and hand sanitizing as early as Jan/Feb. All shops and businesses have their own epidemic prevention practices and voluntarily implemented their own social distancing protocol even before the Govt asks them to do so.
7. Universal Healthcare
Our healthcare system ensures that almost every patient has insurance coverage. This means that we don’t need to avoid treatment or testing due to prohibitive costs.
Life here in Taiwan is pretty normal, there's no restriction of movement for the general population throughout, aside from the mandatory mask wearing, temperature checks and hand sanitizing before entering any venues or buildings, and the 4 weeks school closure in Feb, it's business as usual everywhere else, we’ve been able to enjoy nightlife, all outdoor activities, movies, concerts, sporting events and night markets.
So either locking down early or doing the things a lock down makes people do in countries that aren't so disciplined (plus some other stuff).How do we manage to keep Coronavirus under check without drastic lockdown?
1. Preparedness
Advance awareness from Govt and general public, people here are very paranoia about these kind of things ever since SARS hit, most of the people here wear mask even on a normal day.
We still remember the SARS outbreak of 2003. After the outbreak, the government established a public health response mechanism for future similar crisis involving 124 action items. Some of these items already went into effect as early as last Dec and early Jan after we found out that some weird mini outbreak was going on in Wuhan late last year.
Despite warning the WHO numerous times earlier this year that this "little" situation would become the next SARS, they played it down as China reported that its only a small sample and it's under control.
I went to Guangzhou for a conference in Jan and was immediately called back the moment i touched down as my superior told me that shit is about to hit fan. If I remember correctly around 200k Taiwanese were called back during that period.
2. Travel Restrictions
- Travel alerts for incoming Mainland Chinese since Feb 1
- Ports closed to Cruise ships
- No entry for Chinese Nationals since Feb 7th and non-Citizens since mid March(Though we opened our border selectively and with strict protocol in June)
- 14 day mandatory quarantine upon arrival since late Feb
3. Extended School Break
Schools were closed for 2+ weeks for Lunar New Year Holiday(January 2020) and the break was extended another 2 weeks to prevent any Coronavirus spread. Schools have since resumed in March.
4. Surgical Mask Strategy
Initially, masks were sold out of stores by early Feb. Mask production was ramped up and subsidized by Govt, supply was rationed through pharmacies nationwide, and export was banned until June/July. Enough masks, hand sanitizers and related PPE are guaranteed to everyone and the price of masks is capped.
5. Contact Tracing
Any confirmed cases were thoroughly interviewed to trace potentially exposed persons. These people’s faces mandatory quarantined and all had cell phones tracked to ensure compliance. Those breaking quarantine faced heavy fines of up to USD35,000. There was a case where 1 confirmed carrier broke protocol and went clubbing, he was fined and the authority managed to trace around 100 people that were in close contact with him and tested everyone of them within 1 week. Actually a majority of them reported themselves to the authority after they found out that they went to the same place with the carrier.
6. Culture
Most families have supplies of masks at home and everyone was ready to practice important habits like mask wearing, social distancing, and hand sanitizing as early as Jan/Feb. All shops and businesses have their own epidemic prevention practices and voluntarily implemented their own social distancing protocol even before the Govt asks them to do so.
7. Universal Healthcare
Our healthcare system ensures that almost every patient has insurance coverage. This means that we don’t need to avoid treatment or testing due to prohibitive costs.
Life here in Taiwan is pretty normal, there's no restriction of movement for the general population throughout, aside from the mandatory mask wearing, temperature checks and hand sanitizing before entering any venues or buildings, and the 4 weeks school closure in Feb, it's business as usual everywhere else, we’ve been able to enjoy nightlife, all outdoor activities, movies, concerts, sporting events and night markets.
There's also a large element of people returning from overseas holiday on the green line. It's often overlooked as a significant impact to the case numbers for some reason.
Department for Health & Social care have said around the beginning of September that about 25% of tests were being used by people who were asymptomatic or uninfected, but still taking up a test.
Doesn’t sound like they locked down at all. Not to the same drastic extent that we saw in Spain/Italy/Victoria anyway. Schools have been open since March and people were out night-clubbing!
That was the plan in Ireland. Our incentive scheme kicks in at the beginning of next month. When there’s not a restaurant in our capital city you’ll be allowed inside. Heads you win, tails you lose.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/hea...0s-swedish-expert-to-tell-committee-1.4361858
The Swedes are at it again. I agree in theory, but I'm not sure they realize how crap our health service is compared to theirs!
The Swedes are at it again. I agree in theory, but I'm not sure they realize how crap our health service is compared to theirs!
A huge amount of venues close far later than 11, especially at weekends.
From day one, the tories believed that mass compliance was pie in the sky and adopted a wishy washy approach. They were shocked that the UK public actually did what they were told, more or less, and have since tried to blame everyone but themselves. They are corrupt to the core and constantly fail to meet their own goals, which leads them to make even bolder claims that something brilliant is just over the horizon. From paying tiny companies with no experience huge amounts of money to supply PPE while ignoring actual suppliers, to paying companies to get Track and Trace up and running and them being abject failures, it's just been a farce.
I just wonder what it actually takes before people turn on them. It totally baffles me how much the public puts up with without any real push back.
I just wonder what it actually takes before people turn on them. It totally baffles me how much the public puts up with without any real push back.
What scares me even more than the contents of the video is the dislike ratio and the comments.
There seems to be a real change in the narrative, its been happening in America but it looks to be occurring in the UK too. People who were all for the first lockdown, who promoted the wearing of masks and really had that 'in this together' mentality largely don't seem to feel that way anymore.
The feeling now seems to be that we know what we're dealing with, we can't go in and out of lockdown forever so lets just get on with it. I think the UK Government are blind to this and as restrictions continue to tighten I believe we might see a nasty pushback. Not just from loony radical idiots from the first lockdown who thinks Covid is a hoax, but from your average Joe.
How though? It's just going to increase the amount of traffic in a pub during the opening hours.
It's pretty pointless for a lot of venues and won't stop any potential spread.
You're right but in theory it shouldn't as it's only table service.
Honestly it’s worrying my colleagues in our team meetings have started to flirt with the conspiracy ideas and moaning about our liberties being taken away for no reason. I swear they just come to these crazy conclusions with no evidence just so they can justify feeling hard done by because of current circumstances.
Pubs will be closed soon let's face it. Any places I've been to have been seating people outside and that won't be possible now the weather is turning so risks for spreading will increase whatever time they shut.
Will people go an hour or 2 earlier to compensate? Some may but I'd have thought the majority wouldn't. Of course limiting entry numbers and enforcing things like social distancing would help even more.
Lock downs in terms of people forced to home weren't needed because they locked the borders hard and early, plus they had a well educated, disciplined and compliant population who achieved the rest in a way that would only be achievable with legal enforcement in most countries.