SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

[Cardboard elk]

There should be something akin to the Nuremberg Trials after this is all over, to convict certain leaders in the world for mass death due to negligence.

 

[Fully Fledged]

Just read that Lambeth Council closed a park after 3000 people visited it today.

I live near Finsbury Park, I don't know the numbers but it was very busy today. People sunbathing, hanging around, swarms of runners right next to each other. I'm sure at some point they'll close it as well

You wonder what goes through peoples heads

The human race is doomed.

 

[Heardy]

Whilst the government only advise / recommend staying at home and allow people out for exercise etc people will abuse it.

 

[Bebestation]

If a lockdown was going to happen then they should have done a full lock down early.

No excuses like allowing exercise and just allow pharmacy and supermarkets to be open.

People have too many excuses to go out and just do their own thing at the moment.

 

[horsechoker]

From the BBC

Italy's Lombardy residents required to wear masks
"Residents in the northern Italian region of Lombardy will now be required to wear protective masks or cover their faces when they go outside.
The new measure comes into effect on Sunday and will last until 13 April.
The ordinance from the region's President Attilio Fontana follows similar guidelines in other northern regions, Veneto and Alto Adige, where residents must wear masks when shopping in stores and at markets.
The whole of Italy is in lockdown, but Lombardy - the epicentre of the virus in Europe - has passed particularly tight restrictions on movement and business."

I don't get this measure, why not enact it when the numbers were climbing rapidly a week or so ago? It seems like they're just trying to appear to do something.

All I sense is more face touching and difficulty breathing. Maybe it will further put people off going out unless vital.

 

[Penna]

Whilst the government only advise / recommend staying at home and allow people out for exercise etc people will abuse it.

Yes, an hour of exercise is a lot for most people, considering millions won’t have been doing a minute a day before now. You can walk around for an hour, then get in your car and browse around a big supermarket with your shopping bag. You could go to another one in the evening, if you felt like it.

Basically, you can be out and about a lot more than’s strictly necessary.

 

[fergosaurus]

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Grim, grim, grim. Poor kid.

What a horrible situation.

 

[Cardboard elk]

I don't get this measure, why not enact it when the numbers were climbing rapidly a week or so ago? It seems like they're just trying to appear to do something.

All I sense is more face touching and difficulty breathing. Maybe it will further put people off going out unless vital.

I have no doubt myself that the reason is that governments is starting to understand that masks are vital in the fight vs the virus, in combination with testing and isolation of cases, to be able to go back to a more open society, like South Korea for instance.

Like it was said by Jeremy Howard on Washington Post :

"At the height of the HIV crisis, Authorities did not tell people to put away condoms. As fatalities from car crashes mounted, no one recommended avoiding seat belts."

It should be bloody easy to understand the importance of masks imo. Of course it helps. WHO is as usual slowly turning on this as well and I doubt asian nations that have succeded controling the virus is doing it for fun. The only reason the governments were advocating against it was to ensure the supply of PPE masks to healthcare first. The virus also spreads through more than a sneeze and a cough. Studies have showed it to spread through just talking and breathing also, albeit how much and how effectively can be debated.

 

[Port Vale Devil]

Fecking JTF is opening again tomorrow near me. Be hundreds of thick Stokies trying to get their plants etc.

Open them up but just for food and cleaning products.

 

[horsechoker]

I have no doubt myself that the reason is that governments is starting to understand that masks are vital in the fight vs the virus, in combination with testing and isolation of cases, to be able to go back to a more open society, like South Korea for instance.

Like it was said by Jeremy Howard on Washington Post :

"At the height of the HIV crisis, Authorities did not tell people to put away condoms. As fatalities from car crashes mounted, no one recommended avoiding seat belts."

It should be bloody easy to understand the importance of masks imo. Of course it helps. WHO is as usual slowly turning on this as well and I doubt asian nations that have succeded controling the virus is doing it for fun. The only reason the governments were advocating against it was to ensure the supply of PPE masks to healthcare first. The virus also spreads through more than a sneeze and a cough. Studies have showed it to spread through just talking and breathing also.

I've been sceptical of masks because I think people don't use them correctly but if it's the next step we all must take then so be it.

 

[Smores]

I live near Finsbury Park, I don't know the numbers but it was very busy today. People sunbathing, hanging around, swarms of runners right next to each other. I'm sure at some point they'll close it as well

You wonder what goes through peoples heads

The media and even politicians need to stop undermining the police and allow them to do their job and fine people. Not a pathetic £50 or whatever it was either, make it hurt.

I will say despite the last decade really causing me to lose belief in the british public that on the whole people have been selfless. The minority ignoring the rules are just scum, ignorance isn't an excuse.

 

[sammsky1]

If a lockdown was going to happen then they should have done a full lock down early.

No excuses like allowing exercise and just allow pharmacy and supermarkets to be open.

People have too many excuses to go out and just do their own thing at the moment.

I don't know if China's numbers are genuine, but there 'lockdown' was on a different level to what Europe's version looks like.

This is what a proper lockdown looks like (Beijing); perhaps China's numbers are real, because their lockdown was real too.

 

[Rado_N]

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Grim, grim, grim. Poor kid.

fecking hell thats horrifying

 

[Bebestation]

I don't know if China's numbers are genuine, but there 'lockdown' was on a different level to what Europe's version looks like.

This is what a proper lockdown looks like (Beijing); perhaps China's numbers are real, because their lockdown was real too.

I've heard of countries that have fully locked down early, close their borders - stopped people completely leaving their house even for food and have essential food like meats/vegetables/fish delivered to them by certain people covering certain postcodes daily.(Sri lanka)

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ne...l-goods-to-homes-as-cases-rise-to-2121793.amp

Whilst it may obviously be hard in the UK - it shows how layed back it's been taken in my opinion. Took ages for the airports and the schools to close and arguably the lockdown is more a personal decision you make than anything strict imposed on you.

 

[Green_Red]

Seems the age groups being affected in New York are different than elsewhere. 1 in 5 under the age of 44.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ze_GUTGgLuly8ephe1D42ncZDf-vfdI&sref=RBKnTL07

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I’ve made the argument since the start that lockdowns don’t work, unless it’s one city and you have the military might of China to enforce it.

You’ll never get enough people all over the country to do it for long enough, the UK is already getting fed up and Southern Italy will be on the verge of anarchy if this continues.

Lockdowns are a decent delaying tactic when required, and if just 50% of people conform and the other 50% are not really doing it but are outdoors, it’ll still be enough to really slow the spread and that’s all we can hope for really.

Paragraph 1.

Repeat your argument that lockdowns don’t work.

Paragraph 3.

Give a decent explanation about why lockdowns can work.

Come on, dude. You need to back down on this one. Lockdowns can and do work because the alternative is too horrific to even think about. That’s as clear as day at this point.

 

[Garethw]

https://www.kentonline.co.uk/folkestone/news/family-travels-122-miles-on-beach-trip-225146/

Idiots!

 

[Ady87]

There is a Coronavirus stat bot on Twitter that says the average death in the UK figures reported today was infected 22 days ago, which put the infected population estimates for 14th March at 125,000-500,000 I think it said.

If true, and I’m still assessing that, it would suggest as some have predicted that we have another week of growth before a potential plateau.

 

[Winrar]

I don't know if China's numbers are genuine, but there 'lockdown' was on a different level to what Europe's version looks like.

This is what a proper lockdown looks like (Beijing); perhaps China's numbers are real, because their lockdown was real too.

I don't believe in their numbers because 1. their numbers are reported by the Chinese state media who wants to propagandize their "progress" and "victory" over the virus to the world and 2. they have responded really late to containing the virus, however strict their current measures are - Wuhan wasn't locked down until at least a month after first cases were reported there around Nov-Dec 19.

Hell, I don't even know if OUR numbers are all that accurate due to unreported cases that might've been passed off as common flu.

Despite that, however, I do believe their number of active cases, whatever it might be, have peaked and they've mitigated the worst of the crisis for now, strictly because of their draconian measures to keep people inside (e.g. welding people in their homes, something that would never happen in western countries)

 

[LordNinio]

Thanks but I still don’t quite understand how reproductive ability of a virus is something humans can change (other than immunity). Wouldn’t the coronavirus still have the ability to infect an average of X number of people (by way of how contagious it is) regardless of how many people are in lockdown? How does that get suppressed?

I think it's simply the case, that if you isolate the infected (which is what the lock down should do) then that individual can't infect anyone.

If you, isolate enough infected persons, then the average number of reinfected is falling. Eventually the virus dies in each patient without being passed on.

 

[Foxbatt]

I don't believe in their numbers because 1. their numbers are reported by the Chinese state media who wants to propagandize their "progress" and "victory" over the virus to the world and 2. they have responded really late to containing the virus, however strict their current measures are - Wuhan wasn't locked down until at least a month after first cases were reported there around Nov-Dec 19.

Hell, I don't even know if OUR numbers are all that accurate due to unreported cases that might've been passed off as common flu.

Despite that, however, I do believe their number of active cases, whatever it might be, have peaked and they've mitigated the worst of the crisis for now, strictly because of their draconian measures to keep people inside (e.g. welding people in their homes, something that would never happen in western countries)

It is mostly the American and the British press who are trying to create news about China. There is a good article about two days back in the New York Times about the timeline in China and it does agree to what the Chinese government is saying and also more importantly what happened actually. How the system failed. There is no logical way they could lock down a city in that short time. UK has still not locked down and now it is April and all the world knew about this at least from January.

 

[sammsky1]

Researchers of Monash university have found FDA approved drug Ivermectin seems to kill COVID19 within 48 hours (in lab conditions).
Next step is to figure out now whether the dosage you can use it at in humans will be effective.

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[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Paragraph 1.

Repeat your argument that lockdowns don’t work.

Paragraph 3.

Give a decent explanation about why lockdowns can work.

Come on, dude. You need to back down on this one. Lockdowns can and do work because the alternative is too horrific to even think about. That’s as clear as day at this point.

I clearly mean you can’t get rid of this with a lockdown. Nothing more. Although China maybe can/did in different circumstances. You’ll see I made this point many times that China can lock it’s people down because it was one City and my feck, could they enforce it, a military of nearly 3 million can definitely get the job done. I’ll repeat, that will never work in the UK when it’s countrywide.

You can absolutely slow the spread though. Even if it’s a half arsed lockdown it’ll do that it appears.
I think just 50% taking it seriously will have a big enough effect so I wouldn’t personally be too worried about seeing too many people outdoors. I was responding to some post with posters being angry/frustrated that they are seeing plenty of people outdoors in the sunshine.

What's "clear as day" so far is that the curve can be flattened without locking people in their houses, Germany & Denmark are testament to this. I haven't heard many experts claiming that outdoor activities are a hot spot for transmission, quite the opposite right? Unless I've missed something?

 

[Foxbatt]

I clearly mean you can’t get rid of this with a lockdown. Nothing more. Although China maybe can/did in different circumstances. You’ll see I made this point many times that China can lock it’s people down because it was one City and my feck, could they enforce it. I’ll repeat, that will never work in the UK when it’s countrywide.

You can absolutely slow the spread though. Even if it’s a half arsed lockdown it’ll do that it appears.
I think just 50% taking it seriously will have a big enough effect so I wouldn’t personally be too worried about seeing too many people outdoors.

It's the whole Hubei province that was locked down. It's not a small area. It's not just a city. Wuhan was first city but it eventually caused the whole province to be in lockdown.

 

[Blackwidow]

Seems the age groups being affected in New York are different than elsewhere. 1 in 5 under the age of 44.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ze_GUTGgLuly8ephe1D42ncZDf-vfdI&sref=RBKnTL07

Does this really surprise?

More obese like everywhere else. For me all the artifical food processing in the US is for me very suspicious, too.

 

[JMack1234]

The most concerning thing about this pandemic is how readily people will embrace authoritarianism.

As long as they feel good about themselves.

 

[Winrar]

It is mostly the American and the British press who are trying to create news about China. There is a good article about two days back in the New York Times about the timeline in China and it does agree to what the Chinese government is saying and also more importantly what happened actually. How the system failed. There is no logical way they could lock down a city in that short time. UK has still not locked down and now it is April and all the world knew about this at least from January.

Care to show me a link to article if you remember? Would like to take a look at it.

 

[Infordin]

The coronavirus has been a far deadlier threat in New Orleans than the rest of the United States, with a per-capita death rate much higher than in New York City. Doctors, public health officials and available data say the Big Easy’s high levels of obesity and related ailments may be part of the problem.

https://nationalpost.com/pmn/health...th-rate-7-times-new-yorks-obesity-is-a-factor

 

[adexkola]

I've heard of countries that have fully locked down early, close their borders - stopped people completely leaving their house even for food and have essential food like meats/vegetables/fish delivered to them by certain people covering certain postcodes daily.(Sri lanka)

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ne...l-goods-to-homes-as-cases-rise-to-2121793.amp

Whilst it may obviously be hard in the UK - it shows how layed back it's been taken in my opinion. Took ages for the airports and the schools to close and arguably the lockdown is more a personal decision you make than anything strict imposed on you.

You will risk defiance and revolt in some countries if such policies are implemented. People in the NE US are already chafing... You see more people saying "feck it" and going back to their normal routine.

 

[Organic Potatoes]

The coronavirus has been a far deadlier threat in New Orleans than the rest of the United States, with a per-capita death rate much higher than in New York City. Doctors, public health officials and available data say the Big Easy’s high levels of obesity and related ailments may be part of the problem.

https://nationalpost.com/pmn/health...th-rate-7-times-new-yorks-obesity-is-a-factor

Not sure about that link...? The article I posted a while back on the same subject was worded almost exactly the same, but with different ratios. That headline says a death rate 7 times that of NY, while everywhere else it says 2-3.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...e-new-yorks-obesity-is-a-factor-idUSKBN21K1B0

 

[sglowrider]

Oslo, Norway; today :

Unbelievable.

Spoiler: Cop meltdown -- industrial language warning

 

[TheGame]

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[Sky1981]

I don't believe in their numbers because 1. their numbers are reported by the Chinese state media who wants to propagandize their "progress" and "victory" over the virus to the world and 2. they have responded really late to containing the virus, however strict their current measures are - Wuhan wasn't locked down until at least a month after first cases were reported there around Nov-Dec 19.

Hell, I don't even know if OUR numbers are all that accurate due to unreported cases that might've been passed off as common flu.

Despite that, however, I do believe their number of active cases, whatever it might be, have peaked and they've mitigated the worst of the crisis for now, strictly because of their draconian measures to keep people inside (e.g. welding people in their homes, something that would never happen in western countries)

Forget china. Look at south korea, japan, singapore. Good government can mitigate the outbreak.

It's not wizardry. Their government instruct, citizen follow, results shows.

Nobody has the magic formula, it's just a collection of small things done right.

Ps: there are reporters all over wuhan, satelite imagery, live tictoc, correspondence from tourist and expats from wuhan, those lockdowns are real. There are various embassy as well. You'd think if the situation is somehow much worse than reported there would be more news from all over the world not only from usa and uk. US has been itching to blame China, it wont be hard for cia to use their satelite and get a hard proof of mass grave of millions bodies lying around. Seriously, what do you think happened in China? Do you honestly think millions died and they open the city today and the rest of the province acts like nothing happened?

Till this very day, the US government and many in the journalism industry haven’t learned the lesson.

In face of an epidemic, let scientists, and epidemiologists answer the questions, devise plans, and predict outcomes. All others should step aside. There is no political, racial, ideological or religious room for interpretations of a virus because a virus only recognizes molecular receptors regardless all else above.

Politicians should do what they can to enforce recommendations from experts, and journalists should do what they can to combat misinformation. At least, that’s what China did.

WHO after investigation said China’s numbers were reliable. Head of Canadian CDC said the numbers in China were correct. Most of scientists in the world, including those at Lancet trust China’s numbers.

China was the first country to report on a daily basis of the statistics of covid19. If the infection rate and fatality rate obtained from these numbers, and the curves set by China can be corroborated by other countries’ statistics set afterwards, then China’s numbers have scientific grounds.

Chinese scientists have been constantly updating their research results of covid19, publish them on papers and share them to the world. But these scientists in China can only do so much to share it to other scientists through science journals and WHO. Whether their findings are relayed to the public of other countries is out of China’s scope of responsibilities.

The world is properly warned. Weather you heed it or not depends on your government and media’s willingness to follow scientific advice which should not be given by intelligence communities, nor politicians, nor journalists.

MSNBC’s Rachel Maddow has done a good job interviewing experts about the how they view the epidemics. And CNN is doing fact checking of White House coronavirus briefings. These are all commendable efforts. But not enough.

Still, instead of listening to and believing what scientists have to say, many people would rather tune in to some citizen journalists and reports of dubious sources. Any rumor that might prove that China is lying feed their cravings for lunacy. Like the rumor that China’s telecom has lost millions of subscriptions hence millions in China are suspected to have died. Thousands of more urns appeared in Wuhan than previously reported covid19 related death count.

In a conversation with my wife, I told her of these rumors circulating in the western media as proofs that China was under reporting numbers, she bursted into laughter immediately and asked as if people actually believe that. I told her yes, as a matter of fact, millions do.

The internet follows mob psychology, especially in times of crisis and disasters. This is why every time there is a disaster in China, rumors abound. And every time, Chinese social media platforms unite to fight against misinformation. But not so much in the US.

There are some anti misinformation mechanisms led by google and twitter. But when the White House and major news outlets in the US are leading the charge to spread misinformation, there is little you can do about it.

The Trump administration is blaming everyone but themselves. They blame China, blame CDC, blame blue state governors, blame Obama. Only China doesn’t have a domestic voice to defend itself. So China is the easy target.

The intelligence community shouldn’t be doing this job. CDC staffs should be doing it. But Trump slashed its China office. Oops!

So again, US intelligence community stepped up just like when they were finding WMDs in Iraq. Last time, Collin Powell waved a magic bottle of Tide as proofs of the existence of WMD in Iraq. This time, it’s a quote from an unnamed source revealing the gist of a classified report unable to be disclosed to the public. And people buy it.

What a crazy world we live in today.

 

[sglowrider]

Forget china. Look at south korea, japan, singapore. Good government can mitigate the outbreak.

It's not wizardry. Their government instruct, citizen follow, results shows.

Nobody has the magic formula, it's just a collection of small things done right.

Ps: there are reporters all over wuhan, satelite imagery, live tictoc, correspondence from tourist and expats from wuhan, those lockdowns are real. There are various embassy as well. You'd think if the situation is somehow much worse than reported there would be more news from all over the world not only from usa and uk. US has been itching to blame China, it wont be hard for cia to use their satelite and get a hard proof of mass grave of millions bodies lying around. Seriously, what do you think happened in China? Do you honestly think millions died and they open the city today and the rest of the province acts like nothing happened?

Actually the gold standard is Taiwan based on results through the Singapore gov't has been generous with giving out masks for free.

 

[FireballXL5]

The most concerning thing about this pandemic is how readily people will embrace authoritarianism.

As long as they feel good about themselves.

Seriously, wtf? This isn't about 'embracing authoritarianism' , it's about staying alive.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

It's the whole Hubei province that was locked down. It's not a small area. It's not just a city. Wuhan was first city but it eventually caused the whole province to be in lockdown.

China have a strict communist regime and the World's biggest military though Foxy, so that's nothing for them. The logistics elsewhere will always be extremely hard to enforce, I'd argue impossible.

The point anyway is that people shouldn't get too worked up about people being outside as outdoor activities do not seem to be a huge problem when tight large gatherings are severely reduced. Unless of course I'm missing some extremely important evidence here?

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

You should google translate this one @Prometheus: https://www.aftonbladet.se/debatt/a/6jRPz0/kd-visa-solidaritet-med-drabbade-i-jarva

Another article criticising the Swedish response to the Järva area in Stockholm. You got this completely wrong here when you suggested I was "blaming" the immigrant population when it was the exact opposite. Sweden have done nowhere near enough to protect this area.

Important part of the article:

Ebba Busch's point is that trust in society fails at Järvabor, which could have caused the spread of infection. But if she had wanted to take the matter seriously, other factors might have been made visible. For example, most of Järvabor works in Stockholm's public transport, in home service, elderly care, in grocery stores, etc. when many others can work from home.
In order to reduce the spread of infection, the congestion and tight living in this area must also be reduced. Today, many hotel rooms are vacant. Stockholm's majority, with the Christian Democrats at the forefront, should explore the possibility of renting hotel rooms for over-crowded elderly and people in other risk groups. This of course if infection protection experts see benefits from the proposal.

For many who live in Järva, it is not possible to follow the advice of the Public Health Authority and to isolate themselves and not cross the generational boundaries. Of course, we hope that the city's government and the capacity that exists there will - and will - help with this.

Much will need to be evaluated after this pandemic.

So Sweden have advised people to isolate the elderly, but those who live with elderly and have zero chance to work from home have been given zero solutions on how to do that. It's horrific in all honesty. Using Ebba's "trust in society fails" in that area excuse is utter bollocks, how can you isolate Grandma if you live with her?
So not locking down society and at the same time not offering a solution to those who live in with elderly parents and grandparents is a modern day equivalent of throwing them to the wolves. I really like the idea of using our empty hotels etc.

 

[Precaution]

The coronavirus has been a far deadlier threat in New Orleans than the rest of the United States, with a per-capita death rate much higher than in New York City. Doctors, public health officials and available data say the Big Easy’s high levels of obesity and related ailments may be part of the problem.

https://nationalpost.com/pmn/health...th-rate-7-times-new-yorks-obesity-is-a-factor

i live near New Orleans, wanna know the reason? Mardi Gras, it was jam packed.

 

[Blackwidow]

Development of the Corona deaths per 100.000 inhabitants since January in various European countries:

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[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Development of the Corona deaths per 100.000 inhabitants since January in various European countries:

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Just shows you that Italy stood no chance really. They were the warning for the rest of us. Spain too looking at that.