SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

Don't Kill Bill

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Some people have a lot of holidays for fun as part of their lifestyle and they'll have to adapt to the new circumstances. For our part, we've been nowhere (even in Italy) for months and months now, and had intended to go to the UK (not for a holiday, to do practical stuff) much earlier than September. We had no intention of becoming Italian residents before our hand was forced by Brexit and we had to choose between living in Europe or outside it.

As jojojo said, lots of people have lives in more than one country. Other people just like lots of holidays abroad, but the two things are not the same.
I agree that they are not the same thing but they require the same ability to travel between countries and so their viability is now questionable. To be honest I am not sure from the environmental cost point of view if it was a sustainable lifestyle even before covid.

If you choose to live in Italy then that is your choice and these are the risks you run by doing so.

I'm not unsympathetic but lets not pretend it fell out of the sky. If the travel ban is needed then its needed and the disruption that follows was a consideration way down the scale when compared to a new wave of horrible covid deaths in the UK.
 

decorativeed

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Even when restrictions were being eased, the sensible approach would've been "let's just accept that this is not the right time to travel abroad" rather than "let me squeeze in a holiday here or there as soon as it's possible again even though I'll contribute to the virus being spread again".
Exactly my feelings. People in the UK in particular do appear to feel like they are entitled to multiple foreign holidays with zero consequences. Sod the locals in the place they're visiting, sod the environmental costs and sod the health implications, they need to have that holiday!
 

Wibble

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What do you mean “barely coping”? Are the Victorian hospitals struggling to find beds for covid patients? Surely not? Aren’t the absolute numbers still quite low?
Beginning to struggle as each case requires a huge tracing effort with 400+ cases per day and having to monitor every potential contact to make sure they are home isolating when we are trying to trace every single case. Hospitals and ICU still have capacity for a while yet but elective surgery and testing is beginning to be impacted.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Beginning to struggle as each case requires a huge tracing effort with 400+ cases per day and we are trying to trace every single case. Hospitals and ICU still have capacity for a while yet but elective surgery and testing is beginning to be impacted.
Testing and tracing are irrelevant in the context of influenza outbreaks. What reduced influenza will do is free up capacity in hospitals. Which is a big positive for any country worried about a second wave coinciding with the usual flu season. With all this worry about covid people forget that it’s “normal” viruses like flu which is one of the biggest drivers behind A&Es and ITU’s getting overrun every winter.
 

massi83

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Temperature and UV are only part of it and probably a small part of it. Melbourne winters aren't even as cold as the UK, much less Scandanavia but winter drives oeople inside. Even here in Sydney, with temperatures far warmer than Melbourne, that would have people in the UK thinking about pub gardens and picnics, it is a cause to wrap up, wear beanies and stay inside. This is a big driver in Victorian infections.

Plus standards of what is acceptable here are different. 500 infections in a day and 5 deaths is enough for people to start considering stage 4 lockdowns and sending in the military to enforce it. NSW had 15 new infections, only 2 of which were untraced community infections and Qld are thinking of shutting the border.

Our government have recognised that eliminating community infection is the only real way to protect the economy until a vaccine. Which is bizarre given how incompetent they usually are.

And I have no proof that season is a huge factor but Europe seems to have benefited from summer just as Australia seems to have suffered for winter - pubs and restaurants that are now mainly inside with windows closed, to keep the heating in, would have outside seating full and if indoors windows and doors would be open in spring or summer. Only 6 more weeks of winter so I guess we will see.
Thanks! Agree with most of that. And the differences would be borderline semantics, so no need to go over them.

I have been surprised how quickly it spread in Melbourne, would have expected it to rise to 100 cases maybe but not to 500.

We have night clubs (stupid decision) open, and football games can have up to 2.500 spectators, and daily infections have stayed under 10 for weeks. So economy is 98% normal. Some of the differences are a bit surprising. I am sure it will be worse than this in winter but don't expect it to get totally out of control since we know so much more than 6 months ago.
 

Wibble

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Testing and tracing are irrelevant in the context of influenza outbreaks. What reduced influenza will do is free up capacity in hospitals. Which is a big positive for any country worried about a second wave coinciding with the usual flu season. With all this worry about covid people forget that it’s “normal” viruses like flu which is one of the biggest drivers behind A&Es and ITU’s getting overrun every winter.
Flu has reduced whuch helps as has a big increase in icu capacity - we were very vulnerable at the beginning of this.

But testing and tracing is far from irrelevant as it takes so many resources and is a primary way of controling outbreaks which prevents icu capacity being overwhelmed. NSW would have followed Victoria without huge scale testing and tracing - and may still be touch and go.
 

Sparky_Hughes

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The whole of Flanders has seen a rapid spike of infections the last two weeks, our expert counsel is currently discussing heavier restrictions or even a semi/soft lockdown again. I'd stay as far away from here as possible.
Stupid sexy flanders.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Flu has reduced whuch helps as has a big increase in icu capacity - we were very vulnerable at the beginning of this.

But testing and tracing is far from irrelevant as it takes so many resources and is a primary way of controling outbreaks which prevents icu capacity being overwhelmed. NSW would have followed Victoria without huge scale testing and tracing - and may still be touch and go.
It’s irrelevant to the issue I was raising. Which is that less flu means more resources to treat covid patients. It’s obviously hugely relevant/important in containing covid outbreaks but that’s the case no matter what goes on with flu.
 

Wibble

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Thanks! Agree with most of that. And the differences would be borderline semantics, so no need to go over them.

I have been surprised how quickly it spread in Melbourne, would have expected it to rise to 100 cases maybe but not to 500.

We have night clubs (stupid decision) open, and football games can have up to 2.500 spectators, and daily infections have stayed under 10 for weeks. So economy is 98% normal. Some of the differences are a bit surprising. I am sure it will be worse than this in winter but don't expect it to get totally out of control since we know so much more than 6 months ago.
Melbourne has some unlucky breaks due to the infections that escaped quarantine hotels primarily hitting ethnic and soci-economic groups that socially distance less and live in more densley packed conditions than the first wave, who were mainly wealthier travellers returning home from overseas.

We now have added issues with idiots defying mask requirements and distancing regulations. Not a majorvdriver (I hope) but deeply unhelpful.
 

Wibble

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It’s irrelevant to the issue I was raising. Which is that less flu means more resources to treat covid patients. It’s obviously hugely relevant/important in containing covid outbreaks but that’s the case no matter what goes on with flu.
Sorry I missed your point - wasn't sure what flu had to do with resources needed for testing and tracing. Reduced flu is very helpul and does free up icu resources although a few more weeks of 500 infections per day could overwhelm even the increased capacity. Having to close hospitals for deep cleans when staff get infected is another factor. I just hope Victoria's stage 3 lockdown and now mask regulations get this under control the next week or two are vital.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Sorry I missed your point - wasn't sure what flu had to do with resources needed for testing and tracing. Reduced flu is very helpul and does free up icu resources although a few more weeks of 500 infections per day could overwhelm even the increased capacity. Having to close hospitals for deep cleans when staff get infected is another factor. I just hope Victoria's stage 3 lockdown and now mask regulations get this under control the next week or two are vital.
It’s interesting/scary how quickly the case numbers have taken off in Victoria, while other countries are getting back to something quite close to normal life without that sort of exponential growth. I think weather could be a factor but the scandi/nordic experience (Sweden excluded!) does make you wonder if there’s something else going on. We’ve still got a hell of a lot to learn about this fecking virus, that’s for sure!
 

Maagge

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It’s interesting/scary how quickly the case numbers have taken off in Victoria, while other countries are getting back to something quite close to normal life without that sort of exponential growth. I think weather could be a factor but the scandi/nordic experience (Sweden excluded!) does make you wonder if there’s something else going on. We’ve still got a hell of a lot to learn about this fecking virus, that’s for sure!
Denmark had a pretty dry spring/early summer so we could have a lot of the school kids outside most of the time. We've only really had rain in July and at that point we had the thing under control. I hope summer holidays haven't ruined that.
 

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If you think about the human cost in deaths and the eye watering financial cost of shutting down an economy each time this virus gets out of hand, I wonder if we can continue to have such jet set multinational lifestyles as an option?

I wouldn't want to blame people individually but they have made choices with consequences and having your life spread across continents is one choice and these are the consequences of making those decisions. It is unfortunate but it is where we are for the time being at least and it might be forever if the vaccines don't work.
I completely agree however it has been the governments of the UK and others that decided to open these 'Sky Bridges' as well as the intrinsic parts of the tourism industry and not individuals. The purpose of which has been reciprocal to restart economies. The fact that individuals have gotten caught up in all of this, and will continue to has been because they have engaged in exactly what our governments have wanted, none broke any rules, precisely the opposite. No intentions were made in bad faith.

Let's not pretend our lives will be anything but subject to the 'luck of the draw' where Covid is concerned until we have both a vaccine and a cure for this disease and until then we'll all continue to do our best according to whatever rules and regulations imposed on us because of the situation. We're not, in this case talking about attempting to sneak past any borders, attempting to cross the channel in overcrowded leaky rubber lilos.
 

fergieisold

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Even when restrictions were being eased, the sensible approach would've been "let's just accept that this is not the right time to travel abroad" rather than "let me squeeze in a holiday here or there as soon as it's possible again even though I'll contribute to the virus being spread again".
People have to get on with normal life at some point. Countries economies depend on tourism too so I think along as people behave as they would in the UK with regards to social distancing etc it's acceptable to go on holiday. The problem seems to be idiots behaving like there isn't any virus and taking the piss...chav brits on tour in Spain was always going to end up like it has.
 

redshaw

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UK 7 deaths and 685 cases

Sun/Mon are usually much lower so expect 50-150 tomorrow. 7 is the lowest number so far though and trend is still lowering
 

Pexbo

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The software house I’ve just started working at has no plans to return to the office for the foreseeable. We had a meeting today with virtually the entire company and everyone said while they missed the team, their productivity was way up and the output reflects that.The truth is that in this day and age, unless you are actually required to do something physically in a space you can get on perfectly well without being in the office.
 

RK

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This is interesting/encouraging, even though it was always likely to happen. Social distancing measures flattening influenza curve, as well as covid. Biggest fear of second wave in autumn/winter was the fact that healthcare services would usually be slammed with seasonal illnesses at this time. If we’ve massively reduced incidence of influenza etc then we’ll be much better placed to cope with a surge of covid when the weather gets cold.
Promising news. I finally got a flu shot last week.

Lack of international travel seems like a huge factor to me in the flu spread. Gives less chance for novel yearly strains to spread between continents.
 

Kentonio

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People have to get on with normal life at some point.
We’ve had a pandemic in full swing for only 4-5 months, and we’re already talking about life going back to normal? Why? This is life and death stuff, does missing a summer holiday really mean that much to people?
 

4bars

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That´s a total drama. Unemployment is going to skyrocket in September. I am especially sorry for Valencia/Benidorm area
Spain is going to default. covid will not finish anytime soon and the country is heavily dependant on tourism, not only in summer and we will have the same domino effect than 2008 but without coming from 15 years of economy boost (but 12 years of economic recovery)

But there is no other solution
 

Ady87

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The software house I’ve just started working at has no plans to return to the office for the foreseeable. We had a meeting today with virtually the entire company and everyone said while they missed the team, their productivity was way up and the output reflects that.The truth is that in this day and age, unless you are actually required to do something physically in a space you can get on perfectly well without being in the office.
Our sales numbers are really strong considering what we’ve been through. I think our bosses will have absolutely dreaded the loss of control over the desk based part of our sales organisation but I think they’ll be pleasantly surprised by what they’ve seen. We’ve been regularly filling in surveys about how we are getting on and it looks like they’re genuinely giving some thought to how and where we work moving forward. If it’s some sort of hybrid role I’ll be made up as being at home saves me a lot of time and money and work gets more out of me too.
 

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The software house I’ve just started working at has no plans to return to the office for the foreseeable. We had a meeting today with virtually the entire company and everyone said while they missed the team, their productivity was way up and the output reflects that.The truth is that in this day and age, unless you are actually required to do something physically in a space you can get on perfectly well without being in the office.
Looks like it. Which raises the question of why employ people that live in Britain or the US when you can employ people in India or Africa, with a much lower cost of living, that will do the same job for less than half the pay? I don't know the answer, it might be a crap question in the first place because I know absolutely feck all about software houses and the like. Happy to be educated, I'm just thinking aloud.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Looks like it. Which raises the question of why employ people that live in Britain or the US when you can employ people in India or Africa, with a much lower cost of living, that will do the same job for less than half the pay? I don't know the answer, it might be a crap question in the first place because I know absolutely feck all about software houses and the like. Happy to be educated, I'm just thinking aloud.
It’s a very good question. And I suspect a big factor in the big tech companies all being so willing to allow their staff to work at home, long term. They’re - quite literally - not just doing it for the good of their health.
 

Kentonio

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Looks like it. Which raises the question of why employ people that live in Britain or the US when you can employ people in India or Africa, with a much lower cost of living, that will do the same job for less than half the pay? I don't know the answer, it might be a crap question in the first place because I know absolutely feck all about software houses and the like. Happy to be educated, I'm just thinking aloud.
Remote working and outsourcing aren’t the same though. If people are actually part of your team, then you need strong communication and things like time zones come into play. Also not having team members who are being treated like shit and not paid properly. If you just want to hire a load of cheap foreign workers then it’s an outsourcing job not a remote studio.
 

0le

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If anyone wants to, there is a good discussion (aside from some self promotion) about the "digital divide" where a sizable number of disadvantaged people do not have access or struggle to use the internet or digital tech in the UK and there is also a discussion about how this disadvantages them in life. It was an interesting podcast, particularly in light of the recent societal shift with companies moving online and the assumption sometimes that this can be easy or desirable. Note that the research was carried out by "Capgemini" with a collaboration with a charity, "Code Your Future".

 

711

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Remote working and outsourcing aren’t the same though. If people are actually part of your team, then you need strong communication and things like time zones come into play. Also not having team members who are being treated like shit and not paid properly. If you just want to hire a load of cheap foreign workers then it’s an outsourcing job not a remote studio.
Sounds good then, I need people to pay taxes here to keep things going.
 

Wibble

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Looks like it. Which raises the question of why employ people that live in Britain or the US when you can employ people in India or Africa, with a much lower cost of living, that will do the same job for less than half the pay? I don't know the answer, it might be a crap question in the first place because I know absolutely feck all about software houses and the like. Happy to be educated, I'm just thinking aloud.
That horse has already bolted - hard to find an onshore support centre these days. In general there is a massive cost saving at the cost of the quality of customer support for all but the most basic inquiries. The pandemic has made this much worse because the usual solution to an overwhelmed call center is to engage an overflow call centre and the world is working at or above full capacity so this handoff isn't usually possible. Add moving most people to working at home in India/The Philippines which complicates access to systems and things will be a bit rubbish for guite some time.

Some further jobs will flow offshore for sure but many of those working from home now won't be replaced either. I don't think the current situation will do much to change the general trend as it was already set in motion imo.

I'm thinking that the biggest change factor will be with firms having vastly reduced office space needs in the future, now that many firms who have previously not trusted employees to work from home finding out how productive people are without commuting etc.
 

Brwned

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You get fined £1000 if you are found outside of your house. Id say that's enforcement
Germany are now providing in-airport tests for free because they've been unable to effectively enforce the quarantine rule for travellers. Either the UK will come to the same conclusion a month later or they'll just accept that a significant portion of people are not adhering to the rule, because enforcement on that scale is not an option.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Germany are now providing in-airport tests for free because they've been unable to effectively enforce the quarantine rule for travellers. Either the UK will come to the same conclusion a month later or they'll just accept that a significant portion of people are not adhering to the rule, because enforcement on that scale is not an option.
A single test in the airport will miss a hell of a lot of cases. A second test, a day or two later would hugely improve the detection rate. But then you’re back into mass enforcement. Ultimately, there’s only so much the state can do if the public are going to insist on behaving selfishly.