SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

[jojojo]

The daftest rule of the lot is the removal of pre departure tests and the change to LFT day 2 tests. Fill a plane with Covid positive people and then let them loose in society. If anything they should have kept the pre departure test and dropped the day 2 entirely.

Pre-departure LFTs would be better than nothing.

The annoyance with the tests on return has basically all been about the private companies, the charges, the admin incompetence, the tests that have to be placed in overflowing collection point boxes, the results that don't arrive or arrive too late to be useful.

If they were done as part of the NHS PCR testing service, (even with a £25 charge or something) then it would be different. It's that whole farce of shopping around for the best package of tests, and working out which kit they need etc, that put a lot of people off. They're only doing a partial job on fixing that.

 

[Buster15]

Worldometer gives the total covid deaths at just over 4.7 millions. That is pretty staggering really. But these are the official figures and the actual may well be quite a bit higher.
I wonder what the true figures really are...

 

[jojojo]

Worldometer gives the total covid deaths at just over 4.7 millions. That is pretty staggering really. But these are the official figures and the actual may well be quite a bit higher.
I wonder what the true figures really are...

The excess deaths tracking suggests that it might be more like 15 million. I posted a link to the stats a couple of weeks ago.

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[Ferguson’s Hairdryer]

What’s been the secret to China’s mostly flattening the curve? With a population of 1.4 billion, they’ve kept 2nd and 3rd waves to below 120 cases.

 

[Kaos]

What’s been the secret to China’s mostly flattening the curve? With a population of 1.4 billion, they’ve kept 2nd and 3rd waves to below 120 cases.

They're either adopting draconian measures to keep the virus at bay or they're lying about their case numbers. Pick one (or both).

 

[Ferguson’s Hairdryer]

They're either adopting draconian measures to keep the virus at bay or they're lying about their case numbers. Pick one (or both).

I would have believed the draconian measures until I realised people were having foam parties in Wuhan last new year and earlier. Maybe foam is the answer

 

[4bars]

I would have believed the draconian measures until I realised people were having foam parties in Wuhan last new year and earlier. Maybe foam is the answer

draconian measures is that when they detect 5 cases they are capable to put a city(ies) in truely quarantine (not what we do in europe and america) and do test to 5-10 millions in 2-3 days. No new cases, lets the foam run

 

[Wibble]

What exactly is the point of rolling out a vaccine passport when the overwhelming majority of people have already taken some form of action?

To prevent those who can but haven't been vaccinated from infecting those who can't or who didn't get a good immune response from vaccination e.g the elderly. And don't forget that the vaccines aren't sterilising and those percentages are only for those over 16 so I doubt we are close to HIT (hopefully yet) so we need to control infections and the obvious place is with limiting feckwits capacity to infect the rest of us. There has been more than adequate time for anyone with "genuine" concerns about the vaccines to listen to the evidence so why should they now get the benefits of everyone else's actions?

 

[Gehrman]

All covid restrictions have been lifted here in Denmark for a while now. Gotta say it's nice being back to normal.

 

[Buster15]

The excess deaths tracking suggests that it might be more like 15 million. I posted a link to the stats a couple of weeks ago.

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Wow. Thank you for this. In any scenario, that is a staggering number. I even though double the 4.7million would be about the actual.
I do accept that precise numbers would be difficult to ascertain.
And of course, many people are still catching and dying from it. Mainly because of the worryingly low numbers who have been vaccinated across the world.
So even that number will increase.

 

[0le]

To prevent those who can but haven't been vaccinated from infecting those who can't or who didn't get a good immune response from vaccination e.g the elderly. And don't forget that the vaccines aren't sterilising and those percentages are only for those over 16 so I doubt we are close to HIT (hopefully yet) so we need to control infections and the obvious place is with limiting feckwits capacity to infect the rest of us.

You have focused on one specific area which affects only a small group of people. There are already attempts to create an injection for some of those people from that group [1]. On top of that, the existing vaccines were designed primarily to reduce hospitalisations and less so the spread of the virus, although they can help [2]. The counter-arguments are also still problematic, namely the logistics involved with any passport type system.

There has been more than adequate time for anyone with "genuine" concerns about the vaccines to listen to the evidence so why should they now get the benefits of everyone else's actions?

If you want to go down that line of argument, then we can also ask questions about why people who drink should be given any (free) NHS treatment or societal benefits. Or similarly people who smoke, eat poor diets etc... the list goes on. At some point you have to accept that people who do things which do not necessarily benefit themselves, but are not illegal, can enjoy the same benefits as anyone else.

 

[Wibble]

You have focused on one specific area which affects only a small group of people. There are already attempts to create an injection for some of those people from that group [1]. On top of that, the existing vaccines were designed primarily to reduce4 hospitalisations and less so the spread of the virus, although they can help [2]. They are showing showing virus same counter-arguments are also still problematic, namely the logistics involved with any passport type system4.

So the under 16's, the elderly and those who can't be vaccinated are a small and irrelevant group? And how are the logistics so hard? We have to check in everywhere so link vaccine records and the job is done.

If you want to go down that line of argument, then we can also ask questions about why people who drink should be given any (free) NHS treatment or societal benefits. Or similarly people who smoke, eat poor diets etc... the list goes on. At some point you have to accept that people who do things which do not necessarily benefit themselves, but are not illegal, can enjoy the same benefits as anyone else.

Smokers and drinkers already pay large tax contributions and maybe they should pay even more, smoking in particular.

And people who won't vaccinate are far worse as they don't just endanger themselves or their family. So feck them the selfish bastards.

As for the not illegal.bit, that is easily solved with legislation

 

[Kazi]

Can someone help me out.

I am leaving for Spain on 25 September, returning on 4 October. Is all that is needed from my end is proof of vaccination, and a day 2 test when I return?

 

[0le]

So the under 16's, the elderly and those who can't be vaccinated are a small and irrelevant group?

I was referring to people who cannot get a vaccine due to an immune response, as was evident by the second sentence. Why should under 16's be part of the discussion when they have not been offered the vaccine anyway?

And how are the logistics so hard? We have to check in everywhere so link vaccine records and the job is done.

Not all countries agree on what are the medical exemptions. There may not be agreement regarding which are the accepted vaccine manufacturers as well as dose intervals. There is also still no clear idea about how booster jabs will affect the passports . People who participated in trials have been left in limbo [1] [2]. Industry figures have also hinted that there are some logistical issues [3]. Have you got any data or articles which suggests otherwise?

Smokers and drinkers already pay large tax contributions and maybe they should pay even more, smoking in particular.

Equally people with anti-vax views also work and pay tax, so they too should receive the same benefits as anyone else who pays tax.

And people who won't vaccinate are far worse as they don't just endanger themselves or their family. So feck them the selfish bastards.

There were 7000+ accidents related to drink driving alone in 2019 [4] and alcohol may cost NHS England £3.5 billion per year [5]. There are also numerous statistics which show alcohol influences crime which affects people in other ways such as violence and child neglect (see [6] and sources therein). It is certainly fair to say that in the short-term, Covid has had a profound affect but alcohol remains a serious issue in the UK.

As for the not illegal.bit, that is easily solved with legislation

Thankfully policy usually has to go several times through the commons and lords and is not passed on a whim.

 

[Balljy]

Equally people with anti-vax views also work and pay tax, so they too should receive the same benefits as anyone else who pays tax.

They don't currently pay tax on the thing that they do (or don't do in the case of vaccination). 80% of the price of a pack of cigarettes is tax and there is a specific alcohol duty tax.

 

[0le]

They don't currently pay tax on the thing that they do (or don't do in the case of vaccination). 80% of the price of a pack of cigarettes is tax and there is a specific alcohol duty tax.

They still pay tax which contributes towards the NHS. Regardless, the point still stands that it does not make sense to decide who "deserves" benefits just because one does not agree with their (legal) life style choices.

 

[Balljy]

They still pay tax which contributes towards the NHS. Regardless, the point still stands that it does not make sense to decide who "deserves" benefits just because one does not agree with their (legal) life style choices.

It's fair to say that things that do cause additional cost to the NHS such as alcohol and cigarettes are taxed specifically though. It would be fair to work in a similar way by making people pay for their own weekly tests if they're not going to vaccinate unless they can't going on that basis.

 

[jojojo]

Can someone help me out.

I am leaving for Spain on 25 September, returning on 4 October. Is all that is needed from my end is proof of vaccination, and a day 2 test when I return?

Outbound, make sure to fill in the Spanish form before you travel. It should give you a QR code, which will speed things up at check-in here and when you arrive in Spain. If your vaccine is on their approved list, which the standard UK ones are, then that's all you need.

Returning, October 4th is rule change day and the new rules apparently kick in at 4am. If you're entering under the new rules, you don't need to get a test before you fly back, you do need to book and pay for a Day 2 PCR test in advance though. You need to fill in the UK entry form as well.

 

[Kazi]

Outbound, make sure to fill in the Spanish form before you travel. It should give you a QR code, which will speed things up at check-in here and when you arrive in Spain. If your vaccine is on their approved list, which the standard UK ones are, then that's all you need.

Returning, October 4th is rule change day and the new rules apparently kick in at 4am. If you're entering under the new rules, you don't need to get a test before you fly back, you do need to book and pay for a Day 2 PCR test in advance though. You need to fill in the UK entry form as well.

Thank you!!

 

[Ferguson’s Hairdryer]

draconian measures is that when they detect 5 cases they are capable to put a city(ies) in truely quarantine (not what we do in europe and america) and do test to 5-10 millions in 2-3 days. No new cases, lets the foam run

The lockdown in Italy was very strict. Yet they have had 2-3 waves. I look at the stats, look at China’s early reaction which was based on silly PR and denial.. and think nothing has changed.

 

[horsechoker]

The lockdown in Italy was very strict. Yet they have had 2-3 waves. I look at the stats, look at China’s early reaction which was based on silly PR and denial.. and think nothing has changed.

Having rules and get people to follow the rules are two different things.

 

[Ferguson’s Hairdryer]

Having rules and get people to follow the rules are two different things.

I have no evidence to suggest that the first lockdown in Italy was not strictly followed or enforced, do you?
It is widely known that from Around Dec to Jan the Chinese government was telling medical workers to stay quiet and was downplaying the human to human transmission capacity of the virus to the international community.

Based on the above plus the way the virus has acted in other countries my opinion is that the stats for China are like the guy in fifa or FM who edits his team stats and gives Xhaka 90/100 for discipline

 

[golden_blunder]

I have no evidence to suggest that the first lockdown in Italy was not strictly followed or enforced, do you?
It is widely known that from Around Dec to Jan the Chinese government was telling medical workers to stay quiet and was downplaying the human to human transmission capacity of the virus to the international community.

Based on the above plus the way the virus has acted in other countries my opinion is that the stats for China are like the guy in fifa or FM who edits his team stats and gives Xhaka 90/100 for discipline

Well we have 2 posters here who live in Italy who could answer that part for you

@Penna @11101

 

[Penna]

Well we have 2 posters here who live in Italy who could answer that part for you

@Penna @11101

It was strictly enforced, yes. Your movements were very limited and you had to fill in a form to carry with you every single time you left the house. There were lots of police around and they stopped you and checked your documents, even when you were on foot.

 

[golden_blunder]

It was strictly enforced, yes. Your movements were very limited and you had to fill in a form to carry with you every single time you left the house. There were lots of police around and they stopped you and checked your documents, even when you were on foot.

That’s what I thought. I remember your posts at the time

 

[11101]

It was strictly enforced, yes. Your movements were very limited and you had to fill in a form to carry with you every single time you left the house. There were lots of police around and they stopped you and checked your documents, even when you were on foot.

Yeah, we had Army helicopters overhead looking for people outside and directing police to them. It was no joke for that first few months.

 

[Ferguson’s Hairdryer]

That’s what I thought. I remember your posts at the time

Exactly what I thought too. I remember the news, I remember the coverage, I don’t think any of us will forget the images of people in their apartment balconies etc and dead streets of Rome, Milan, and other parts of Italy.
So I don’t really get why @horsechoker was insinuation that the lockdown in Italy wasn’t followed or enforced.

Also should be noted, China never had a nation wide lockdown as strict as Wuhan in other parts of China, it’s strict lockdowns were mostly regional. So yes the numbers for China’s first wave and the way its flattened since are very odd and most likely BS.

 

[golden_blunder]

Exactly what I thought too. I remember the news, I remember the coverage, I don’t think any of us will forget the images of people in their apartment balconies etc and dead streets of Rome, Milan, and other parts of Italy.
So I don’t really get why @horsechoker was insinuation that the lockdown in Italy wasn’t followed or enforced.

Also should be noted, China never had a nation wide lockdown as strict as Wuhan in other parts of China, it’s strict lockdowns were mostly regional. So yes the numbers for China’s first wave and the way its flattened since are very odd and most likely BS.

I don’t think it takes a rocket scientist to work out that china’s numbers are inaccurate at best

 

[RoadTrip]

What are the chances those with AZ will be allowed into the US?

 

[groovyalbert]

For anyone with experience/clearer on the current rules - I'm heading to Berlin for a few days on Friday. Double vaccinated a while ago. From what I can find online, all I need is proof of this with no PCR testing going either way, is that correct?

Much appreciated in advance!

 

[DavidDeSchmikes]

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[Wibble]

I was referring to people who cannot get a vaccine due to an immune response, as was evident by the second sentence.

Do you mean people who can't be vaccinated because they have an autoimmune condition?

Why should under 16's be part of the discussion when they have not been offered the vaccine anyway?

Over 12's are being vaccinated in many countries and the US and elsewhere are planning to vaccinate the over 5's when Phizer is approved for that age group before the end of the year. And it is important as HIT requires a certain % of the whole population to be vaccinated and not just adults.

Not all countries agree on what are the medical exemptions. There may not be agreement regarding which are the accepted vaccine manufacturers as well as dose intervals. There is also still no clear idea about how booster jabs will affect the passports . People who participated in trials have been left in limbo [1] [2]. Industry figures have also hinted that there are some logistical issues [3]. Have you got any data or articles which suggests otherwise?

There are very few real grounds for a medical exemption and I'm sure each country can work that out. Internationally I doubt medical exemptions will be accepted. Vaccinated or you aren't allowed in will be the rule.

There are bound to be logistic issues. So what? They can be sorted out.

People in trials of non or yet to be approved vaccines should either be granted special approval or allowed to take an approved vaccine.

Equally people with anti-vax views also work and pay tax, so they too should receive the same benefits as anyone else who pays tax.

Merely paying tax doesn't give you the right to do what you like. Drinkers and smokers are restricted and taxed to partially compensate for the burden they place on medical facilities. So should the unvaccinated. Increased Medicare levy, restricted employment opportunities and travel restrictions at the very least. And not just for covid.

There were 7000+ accidents related to drink driving alone in 2019 [4] and alcohol may cost NHS England £3.5 billion per year [5]. There are also numerous statistics which show alcohol influences crime which affects people in other ways such as violence and child neglect (see [6] and sources therein). It is certainly fair to say that in the short-term, Covid has had a profound affect but alcohol remains a serious issue in the UK.

What is your point in relation to covid passports?

Thankfully policy usually has to go several times through the commons and lords and is not passed on a whim.

And thankfully I no longer live in the UK.

 

[4bars]

The lockdown in Italy was very strict. Yet they have had 2-3 waves. I look at the stats, look at China’s early reaction which was based on silly PR and denial.. and think nothing has changed.

What you call a strict lickdown in italy is a breeze compared with the lockdown type in wuhan. Also the control type with subsequent outbreaks.

More astringent, people following the rules more and way way way more resources dumped on tracking in an astonishing fast reaction than any other country in the world could ever dream off

 

[BootsyCollins]

Me and the kid are going to Manchester early december. We are both doubblejabbed, traveling from Sweden. As the rules are now, do we need to get tested before traveling?

 

[0le]

Do you mean people who can't be vaccinated because they have an autoimmune condition?

Yes.

Over 12's are being vaccinated in many countries and the US and elsewhere are planning to vaccinate the over 5's when Phizer is approved for that age group before the end of the year. And it is important as HIT requires a certain % of the whole population to be vaccinated and not just adults.

Okay, but that is already starting to happen [1].

There are very few real grounds for a medical exemption and I'm sure each country can work that out. Internationally I doubt medical exemptions will be accepted. Vaccinated or you aren't allowed in will be the rule.

There are bound to be logistic issues. So what? They can be sorted out.

Ah yes, let us ignore industry experts because you think they can be sorted out. Also let us introduce a policy which discriminates against people with medical exemptions?

People in trials of non or yet to be approved vaccines should either be granted special approval or allowed to take an approved vaccine.

Based on what evidence?

Merely paying tax doesn't give you the right to do what you like. Drinkers and smokers are restricted and taxed to partially compensate for the burden they place on medical facilities. So should the unvaccinated. Increased Medicare levy, restricted employment opportunities and travel restrictions at the very least. And not just for covid.

Not doing anything illegal gives you all societal benefits with which you are applicable. This is just a fact. Why you keep debating this I am not sure.

What is your point in relation to covid passports?

Since you are so in favour of Covid passports, please comment on whether we should also introduce alcohol passports and other related health passports and would they equally have your full support.

And thankfully I no longer live in the UK.

So stop talking about the UK with regards to its politics, legislation and people when it no longer affects you?

 

[11101]

For what it's worth there has been virtually no opposition to the extended Covid Pass in Italy, a country where ignoring rules is seen as a national sport. Everybody realises it's for the societal good.

 

[0le]

For what it's worth there has been virtually no opposition to the extended Covid Pass in Italy, a country where ignoring rules is seen as a national sport. Everybody realises it's for the societal good.

Whether the majority supports something or not is no indication of whether it is a good policy. For example, in the UK, ~50% of people supported Brexit in the referendum which has to date, caused nothing but problems.

 

[11101]

Whether the majority supports something or not is no indication of whether it is a good policy. For example, in the UK, ~50% of people supported Brexit in the referendum which has to date, caused nothing but problems.

No, but when those who think its a bad policy also think the earth is flat and George Bush blew up the twin towers, you're on safer ground.

 

[0le]

No, but when those who think its a bad policy also think the earth is flat and George Bush blew up the twin towers, you're on safer ground.

Ah right, so no one can critique the policy without you thinking they have extreme views. This is despite the fact that you have yet to raise any counter-arguments to the issues raised. Honestly, that sort of mindset is no different to the very people that you mock.

 

[11101]

Ah right, so no one can critique the policy without you thinking they have extreme views. This is despite the fact that you have yet to raise any counter-arguments to the issues raised. Honestly, that sort of mindset is no different to the very people that you mock.

There is really very little to critique about the concept of a Green Pass. The science behind the vaccine is overwhelming and policy is now moving away from encouraging people to overcome doubts and get the vaccine, its becoming about making sure the hardline anti-vaxxers can't be in a position to compromise other people as we get back to normal life.