SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

UnrelatedPsuedo

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Well the fact that it's just you and not in anyway scientific is probably why I would likely take the peer reviewed scientific study done and peer reviewed by scientists but that's just me. Who made up the 14,000 lives saved and what data is that based on?
I don’t know how you stumble upon all the shit you read, but you always post nonsensical shit. The worst part is that there are small and interesting kernels in some of the links you post, but you extrapolate and misrepresent and cherry pick to an insane degree.
 

jojojo

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First impressions
- it suggests that 4 people die for every 100,000 people which is way higher than any actual database has suggested. So, firstly the vaccine risk is likely overstated.
- then they suggest those 4 deaths might save around 6 lives in a group of 100,000 people. if you look at the UK you'll see that around 200 people have died per 100,000 (across the whole population) in the past year and we've only kept it that low in the past by lockdowns. We're now mostly dependant on the vaccines to avoid adding thousands more.

Even if you accept their vaccine fatal reactions case rate (which I don't) then I'd suggest you would also need to accept that they were looking at a low case rate environment - not the one that occurs when restrictions are lifted and the population is unvaccinated.
 

Pogue Mahone

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YouTube have been taking down videos because the FDA has not recommended the drug. There was a lot of concern about misinformation, it seems. I'm glad to hear that it can he talked about now. The channel Peak Prosperity, one of the two most popular channels on YouTube for Covid news and analysis along with MedCram, had videos removed that covered the data coming back in regards to it.

Here's an article about some of the censorship.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/youtube-cancels-the-u-s-senate-11612288061

This source seems pretty good too.

https://taibbi.substack.com/p/why-has-ivermectin-become-a-dirty-7bd

@Pogue Mahone
That's just a really odd angle to take. The idea that youtube censorship is the only thing stopping this medicine proving its worth. If it really works it will be studied, proven to be of benefit, then prescribed. The most obvious example is prednisolone. Off patent for decades and cheap as chips. It was used in a large well designed study in the Uk and found to be very effective. It is now standard of care all over the world. If invermectin is as effective as these people seem to think it is then it will become standard of care too. But only when proven to be of benefit. A burden of proof that will require more than youtube opinion pieces.
 

Mickeza

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Pogue Mahone

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Any other off-patent drugs extensively banned, demonized and generally dissed for use in treating COVID, apart from Ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine?

Bloody Trump! - if he hadn't mentioned Ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine the hysteria may never have happened.
Only off-patent drugs that haven't been proven to work. The ones that have (e.g. prednisolone) are given to basically every hospitalised covid patient on the planet.
 

bsCallout

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Any other off-patent drugs extensively banned, demonized and generally dissed for use in treating COVID, apart from Ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine?

Bloody Trump! - if he hadn't mentioned Ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine the hysteria may never have happened.
They haven't seemingly banned people discussing the drug, they've banned the promotion of it because it hasn't been studied. There are plenty of videos and articles about the drug. The reason they are doing this is because Hydroxycloroquine wasn't censored early on and people went mad for it thinking it was the cure all only for it to be proven to be ineffective.
 

Mark Pawelek

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Only off-patent drugs that haven't been proven to work. The ones that have (e.g. prednisolone) are given to basically every hospitalised covid patient on the planet.
Not proven to work!
How do you prove a drug works?, when:
  • it's a novel illness caused by a new virus
  • the drug, itself, if far more effective when used in a protocol - a combination with other drugs
  • the protocol for this combination must be developed through trial and error
  • it's effective in slowing onset, so allowing immune system more time to react, so reducing severity of symptoms, leading to fewer deaths.
In the meantime, while waiting for a proven drug to work tens of thousands more people dead. 3.5 million dead world-wide now.

Man-made climate change is not proven but that does not stop your government spending billions of money 'stopping' it or whatever they think they're doing.

I trust doctors, who use this drug (or not) with real patients. I distrust armchair experts, newspaper editors, social media 'fact checkers', and government spin doctors: dictating to us - doctors and sick people - what we're allowed to do.

Facts are: ivermectin is proven to work, in combination with other medicines to slow disease onset. Because it's off-patent no drug company funded a big trial. So published studies show small samples. Small samples, according to you, say it's unproven. That's a self-fulfilling prophecy to benefit big pharma.
 
Last edited:

Anustart89

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Joined
Jun 6, 2013
Messages
15,912
Not proven to work!
How do you prove a drug works?, when:
  • it's a novel illness caused by a new virus
  • the drug, itself, if far more effective when used in a protocol - a combination with other drugs
  • the protocol for this combination must be developed through trial and error
  • it's effective in slowing onset, so allowing immune system more time to react, so reducing severity of symptoms, leading to fewer deaths.
In the meantime, while waiting for a proven drug to work tens of thousands more people dead. 3.5 million dead world-wide now.

Man-made climate change is not proven but that does not stop your government spending billions of money 'stopping' it or whatever they think they're doing.

I trust doctors, who use this drug (or not) with real patients. I distrust armchair experts, newspaper editors, and government spin doctors: dictating to us - doctors and sick people - what we're allowed to do.
Wow.
 

berbatrick

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21,539
@Pogue Mahone
@jojojo
@DFreshKing


from that study - some red flags, some parts had me literally l o l

This is the 1st thing I noticed, it made me laugh because I imagined going to my prof and telling her "look, we got 10 samples, I'm choosing the single best one, just because" and imagining her reaction.

While the European average is 127 individual case safety reports (ICSRs), i.e., cases with side effect reports, per 100,000 vaccinations, the Dutch authorities have registered 701 reports per 100,000 vaccinations, while Poland has registered only 15 ISCRs per 100,000 vaccinations. Assuming that this difference is not due to differential national susceptibility to vaccination side effects, but due to different national reporting standards, we decided to use the data of the Dutch national register (https://www.lareb.nl/coronameldingen; accessed on 29 May 2021) to gauge the number of severe and fatal side effects per 100,000 vaccinations. We compare these quantities to the NNTV to prevent one clinical case of and one fatality by COVID-19.
amazing. no reason given to inflate the number by 7 or 45 times! just, we chose the worst data we could find, and moving on now.

1st red flag:
"Received: 2 June 2021 / Revised: 19 June 2021 / Accepted: 21 June 2021"

peer-reviewed and accepted in 3 weeks!!!!! my papers take 6 months, and they aren't life or death issues for anyone.

So, what's this journal with its amazing turn around time? Quoting from here

So, is MDPI predatory or not? I think it has elements of both. I would name their methods aggressive rent extracting, rather than predatory. And I also think that their current methods & growth rate are likely to make them shift towards more predatory over time.
...
In 2018 the whole editorial board of Nutrients, one of the most prestigious MDPI journals, resigned en-masse lamenting pressures from the publisher to lower the quality bar and let in more papers.
So the short peer review time starts to make some sense. The 1st comment on the blog is a MDPI editor who says he wasn't given control over who reviews the paper, the journal has their pre-selected reviewers. Something people may not know is that journals charge authors for publication - and there are some notorious open-access journals which charge a lot (over $5k) and accept literally any garbage.
I've read one MDPI paper quite a lot for my work so I know it's not all garbage, but that 3 week turnaround on an obviously questionable study (the section I quoted above is enough for it to fail review), combined with the info in that blog post, suggests MDPI Vaccines might be on the sketchier side.

Because of the sketchiness of the journal, I decided to look at the authors.
First guy is a psychologist, and, wouldn't you know it, has a wikipedia page!

he is currently the director of the Institute of Transcultural Health Studies at Europa Universität Viadrina, Frankfurt/Oder,[2] and the director of the European Office of the Samueli Institute[3] which has funded his work since its inception in 2000. He is course leader of the first postgraduate training course for doctors in complementary medicine and cultural sciences.[4]. The commission by the state of Brandenburg for the review of Universities ("Hochschulstrukturkommission") which reviewed the University Viadrina where his IntraG, funded by Heel (corporation) is located came to the conclusion that this Institute should not be continued within the university

Walach has advocated the revision of the concept of evidence-based medicine (EBM), stressing the importance of a circular model of evidence in medical research and criticising problematic assumptions inherent in the hierarchical structure of current EBM. Harald Walach is member of the scientific advisory board of a blog called "CAM-Media Watch" which is run by a Journalist also paid mainly by Heel (corporation). The blog sees itself as "spin doctor" for press on the subject of Complementary and Alternative Medicine ("CAM") and has been reported to also smear a scientist critical of homeopathy.

So, a homoepathy guy who was kicked out of his own university, and does parapsychology. Claims to be employed in Poland and at a different German university, could find no record of it.

This is the 1st author --- and the most credible.

2nd author is a qualified astronomer with, as far as I can tell, no degree related to bio or health. Claims to be a radio-oncologist, because of the lackof any medical degree, I'm guessing he repairs X-ray machines. He is not listed as a member of the dept he claims to be from.

3rd author is " Independent Data and Pattern Scientist ". Cool.


Back to the substance of the paper:
This is the page they took their side effect numbers from: https://www.lareb.nl/coronameldingen

This is a google translate of the page:
A reported side effect may not always be due to the vaccine . Complaints or disorders can also have arisen from another cause after the vaccination. The number of reports says nothing about how often an adverse reaction occurs.
I could and did fill out a form about a side effect on that page with zero checks. (I stopped before the submit). Indeed, people have been filling out nonsense in the US FDA reporter, which is faithfully picked up by Tucker Carlson.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/05/06/tucker-carlsons-worst-vaccine-segment-yet/

This is from the same website as the authors cite:
https://www.lareb.nl/pages/update-van-bijwerkingen
It includes a list of severe side effects that could be linked to the vaccine. Rough maths tells me there were about 62 such reactions in the country of Netherlands. 9M people have received the vaccine there. 62/9M = 0.7/100k vaccines, while they use a number of 16/100k, presumably because they rely on the zero-checks self-reporting system. Great standards, real commitment to learning the truth here.


@DFreshKing
But you know, this exercise is pointless, and this isn't the 1st time I've been involved in this nonsense. You will be back with more junk science from whatever blog or forum you frequent. I will be back to occasionally try and disprove it. I know deep down I'm not convincing you, it is obvious nothing can convince you. So this works mostly as an ego boost for me. It makes me feel good to be able to look into a paper that is so obviously flawed I can find massive mistakes in the 1st few lines I check. But nothing of value happened when I spent 30 mins going into the details of this nonsense and typing it out. You aren't changing your mind, and most people here have made up their minds one way or the other before my post.

There is an entire ecosystem, of which you are a part, which I really hate.
These are new, unproven vaccines. Like AstraZeneca, they may have serious or fatal side effects in some cases. You can read my posts here when I was scared about my mother's reaction to it. But because of people like you, finding trustworthy data is like finding a needle in a haystack. Ludicrously inflated numbers, the least credible scientists, a total lack of quality checks - if Pfizer and AstraZeneca wanted to design an opponent to make themselves look good, they couldn't come up with a better crowd than the anti-vax movement.
 
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Pogue Mahone

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Not proven to work!
How do you prove a drug works?, when:
  • it's a novel illness caused by a new virus
  • the drug, itself, if far more effective when used in a protocol - a combination with other drugs
  • the protocol for this combination must be developed through trial and error
  • it's effective in slowing onset, so allowing immune system more time to react, so reducing severity of symptoms, leading to fewer deaths.
In the meantime, while waiting for a proven drug to work tens of thousands more people dead. 3.5 million dead world-wide now.

Man-made climate change is not proven but that does not stop your government spending billions of money 'stopping' it or whatever they think they're doing.

I trust doctors, who use this drug (or not) with real patients. I distrust armchair experts, newspaper editors, and government spin doctors: dictating to us - doctors and sick people - what we're allowed to do.

Facts are: ivermectin is proven to work, in combination with other medicines to slow disease onset. Because it's off-patent no drug company funded a big trial. So published studies show small samples. Small samples, according to you, say it's unproven. That's a self-fulfilling prophecy to benefit big pharma.
Strange response to a post in which I told you about a specific off-patent drug that has already been proven to work. I think the conclusive evidence was published about 12 months ago. Here’s a link if you’re interested.

EDIT: I said prednisolone but dexamethasone is basically the same thing. Both systemic steroids that have been around forever and cost pennies. Big pharma make sweet feck all from either of them.
 
Last edited:

UnrelatedPsuedo

I pity the poor fool who stinks like I do!
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Apr 15, 2015
Messages
10,047
Location
Blitztown
Not proven to work!
How do you prove a drug works?, when:
  • it's a novel illness caused by a new virus
  • the drug, itself, if far more effective when used in a protocol - a combination with other drugs
  • the protocol for this combination must be developed through trial and error
  • it's effective in slowing onset, so allowing immune system more time to react, so reducing severity of symptoms, leading to fewer deaths.
In the meantime, while waiting for a proven drug to work tens of thousands more people dead. 3.5 million dead world-wide now.

Man-made climate change is not proven but that does not stop your government spending billions of money 'stopping' it or whatever they think they're doing.

I trust doctors, who use this drug (or not) with real patients. I distrust armchair experts, newspaper editors, social media 'fact checkers', and government spin doctors: dictating to us - doctors and sick people - what we're allowed to do.

Facts are: ivermectin is proven to work, in combination with other medicines to slow disease onset. Because it's off-patent no drug company funded a big trial. So published studies show small samples. Small samples, according to you, say it's unproven. That's a self-fulfilling prophecy to benefit big pharma.
Good grief. They still make a lot of folks like you don’t they?
 

Pogue Mahone

The caf's Camus.
Joined
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Messages
133,348
Location
"like a man in silk pyjamas shooting pigeons
@Pogue Mahone
@jojojo
@DFreshKing


from that study - some red flags, some parts had me literally l o l

This is the 1st thing I noticed, it made me laugh because I imagined going to my prof and telling her "look, we got 10 samples, I'm choosing the single best one, just because" and imagining her reaction.



amazing. no reason given to inflate the number by 7 or 45 times! just, we chose the worst data we could find, and moving on now.

1st red flag:
"Received: 2 June 2021 / Revised: 19 June 2021 / Accepted: 21 June 2021"

peer-reviewed and accepted in 3 weeks!!!!! my papers take 6 months, and they aren't life or death issues for anyone.

So, what's this journal with its amazing turn around time? Quoting from here



So the short peer review time starts to make some sense. The 1st comment on the blog is a MDPI editor who says he wasn't given control over who reviews the paper, the journal has their pre-selected reviewers. Something people may not know is that journals charge authors for publication - and there are some notorious open-access journals which charge a lot (over $5k) and accept literally any garbage.
I've read one MDPI paper quite a lot for my work so I know it's not all garbage, but that 3 week turnaround on an obviously questionable study (the section I quoted above is enough for it to fail review), combined with the info in that blog post, suggests MDPI Vaccines might be on the sketchier side.

Because of the sketchiness of the journal, I decided to look at the authors.
First guy is a psychologist, and, wouldn't you know it, has a wikipedia page!

he is currently the director of the Institute of Transcultural Health Studies at Europa Universität Viadrina, Frankfurt/Oder,[2] and the director of the European Office of the Samueli Institute[3] which has funded his work since its inception in 2000. He is course leader of the first postgraduate training course for doctors in complementary medicine and cultural sciences.[4]. The commission by the state of Brandenburg for the review of Universities ("Hochschulstrukturkommission") which reviewed the University Viadrina where his IntraG, funded by Heel (corporation) is located came to the conclusion that this Institute should not be continued within the university

Walach has advocated the revision of the concept of evidence-based medicine (EBM), stressing the importance of a circular model of evidence in medical research and criticising problematic assumptions inherent in the hierarchical structure of current EBM. Harald Walach is member of the scientific advisory board of a blog called "CAM-Media Watch" which is run by a Journalist also paid mainly by Heel (corporation). The blog sees itself as "spin doctor" for press on the subject of Complementary and Alternative Medicine ("CAM") and has been reported to also smear a scientist critical of homeopathy.

So, a homoepathy guy who was kicked out of his own university, and does parapsychology. Claims to be employed in Poland and at a different German university, could find no record of it.

This is the 1st author --- and the most credible.

2nd author is a qualified astronomer with, as far as I can tell, no degree related to bio or health. Claims to be a radio-oncologist, because of the lackof any medical degree, I'm guessing he repairs X-ray machines. He is not listed as a member of the dept he claims to be from.

3rd author is " Independent Data and Pattern Scientist ". Cool.


Back to the substance of the paper:
This is the page they took their side effect numbers from: https://www.lareb.nl/coronameldingen

This is a google translate of the page:


I could and did fill out a form about a side effect on that page with zero checks. (I stopped before the submit). Indeed, people have been filling out nonsense in the US FDA reporter, which is faithfully picked up by Tucker Carlson.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/05/06/tucker-carlsons-worst-vaccine-segment-yet/

This is from the same website as the authors cite:
https://www.lareb.nl/pages/update-van-bijwerkingen
It includes a list of severe side effects that could be linked to the vaccine. Rough maths tells me there were about 62 such reactions in the country of Netherlands. 9M people have received the vaccine there. 62/9M = 0.7/100k vaccines, while they use a number of 16/100k, presumably because they rely on the zero-checks self-reporting system. Great standards, real commitment to learning the truth here.


@DFreshKing
But you know, this exercise is pointless, and this isn't the 1st time I've been involved in this nonsense. You will be back with more junk science from whatever blog or forum you frequent. I will be back to occasionally try and disprove it. I know deep down I'm not convincing you, it is obvious nothing can convince you. So this works mostly as an ego boost for me. It makes me feel good to be able to look into a paper that is so obviously flawed I can find massive mistakes in the 1st few lines I check. But nothing of value happened when I spent 30 mins going into the details of this nonsense and typing it out. You aren't changing your mind, and most people here have made up their minds one way or the other before my post.

There is an entire ecosystem, of which you are a part, which I really hate.
These are new, unproven vaccines. Like AstraZeneca, they may have serious or fatal side effects in some cases. You can read my posts here when I was scared about my mother's reaction to it. But because of people like you, finding trustworthy data is like finding a needle in a haystack. Ludicrously inflated numbers, the least credible scientists, a total lack of quality checks - if Pfizer and AstraZeneca wanted to design an opponent to make themselves look good, they couldn't come up with a better crowd than the anti-vax movement.
Heh. Excellent post. The best bit is that - despite this insanely selective use of data (efficacy from Israel combined with safety from the Netherlands because, well, they say so) they still demonstrate a net benefit for vaccines. If you try really really hard to prove an intervention is harmful and it still comes across as beneficial then it’s probably time to accept that your hypothesis has been disproven.
 
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DFreshKing

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Greater Manchester
I don’t know how you stumble upon all the shit you read, but you always post nonsensical shit. The worst part is that there are small and interesting kernels in some of the links you post, but you extrapolate and misrepresent and cherry pick to an insane degree.
I've no idea what the feck you are on about but whatever. I read peer reviewed studies and other interesting articles on the worldwide pandemic we are all going through. Why on earth youre replying to me as if I wrote the paper is anyone's guess. Care to explain how I misrepresented the paper - no don't I have no interest and won't be reading your response.
 

Fingeredmouse

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Aug 10, 2014
Messages
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Glasgow
Not proven to work!
How do you prove a drug works?, when:
  • it's a novel illness caused by a new virus
  • the drug, itself, if far more effective when used in a protocol - a combination with other drugs
  • the protocol for this combination must be developed through trial and error
  • it's effective in slowing onset, so allowing immune system more time to react, so reducing severity of symptoms, leading to fewer deaths.
In the meantime, while waiting for a proven drug to work tens of thousands more people dead. 3.5 million dead world-wide now.

Man-made climate change is not proven but that does not stop your government spending billions of money 'stopping' it or whatever they think they're doing.

I trust doctors, who use this drug (or not) with real patients. I distrust armchair experts, newspaper editors, social media 'fact checkers', and government spin doctors: dictating to us - doctors and sick people - what we're allowed to do.

Facts are: ivermectin is proven to work, in combination with other medicines to slow disease onset. Because it's off-patent no drug company funded a big trial. So published studies show small samples. Small samples, according to you, say it's unproven. That's a self-fulfilling prophecy to benefit big pharma.
Oh ffs. I see you're in full stream of effluent mode againMark.
 

DFreshKing

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Joined
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Messages
3,366
Location
Greater Manchester
@Pogue Mahone
@jojojo
@DFreshKing


from that study - some red flags, some parts had me literally l o l

This is the 1st thing I noticed, it made me laugh because I imagined going to my prof and telling her "look, we got 10 samples, I'm choosing the single best one, just because" and imagining her reaction.



amazing. no reason given to inflate the number by 7 or 45 times! just, we chose the worst data we could find, and moving on now.

1st red flag:
"Received: 2 June 2021 / Revised: 19 June 2021 / Accepted: 21 June 2021"

peer-reviewed and accepted in 3 weeks!!!!! my papers take 6 months, and they aren't life or death issues for anyone.

So, what's this journal with its amazing turn around time? Quoting from here



So the short peer review time starts to make some sense. The 1st comment on the blog is a MDPI editor who says he wasn't given control over who reviews the paper, the journal has their pre-selected reviewers. Something people may not know is that journals charge authors for publication - and there are some notorious open-access journals which charge a lot (over $5k) and accept literally any garbage.
I've read one MDPI paper quite a lot for my work so I know it's not all garbage, but that 3 week turnaround on an obviously questionable study (the section I quoted above is enough for it to fail review), combined with the info in that blog post, suggests MDPI Vaccines might be on the sketchier side.

Because of the sketchiness of the journal, I decided to look at the authors.
First guy is a psychologist, and, wouldn't you know it, has a wikipedia page!

he is currently the director of the Institute of Transcultural Health Studies at Europa Universität Viadrina, Frankfurt/Oder,[2] and the director of the European Office of the Samueli Institute[3] which has funded his work since its inception in 2000. He is course leader of the first postgraduate training course for doctors in complementary medicine and cultural sciences.[4]. The commission by the state of Brandenburg for the review of Universities ("Hochschulstrukturkommission") which reviewed the University Viadrina where his IntraG, funded by Heel (corporation) is located came to the conclusion that this Institute should not be continued within the university

Walach has advocated the revision of the concept of evidence-based medicine (EBM), stressing the importance of a circular model of evidence in medical research and criticising problematic assumptions inherent in the hierarchical structure of current EBM. Harald Walach is member of the scientific advisory board of a blog called "CAM-Media Watch" which is run by a Journalist also paid mainly by Heel (corporation). The blog sees itself as "spin doctor" for press on the subject of Complementary and Alternative Medicine ("CAM") and has been reported to also smear a scientist critical of homeopathy.

So, a homoepathy guy who was kicked out of his own university, and does parapsychology. Claims to be employed in Poland and at a different German university, could find no record of it.

This is the 1st author --- and the most credible.

2nd author is a qualified astronomer with, as far as I can tell, no degree related to bio or health. Claims to be a radio-oncologist, because of the lackof any medical degree, I'm guessing he repairs X-ray machines. He is not listed as a member of the dept he claims to be from.

3rd author is " Independent Data and Pattern Scientist ". Cool.


Back to the substance of the paper:
This is the page they took their side effect numbers from: https://www.lareb.nl/coronameldingen

This is a google translate of the page:


I could and did fill out a form about a side effect on that page with zero checks. (I stopped before the submit). Indeed, people have been filling out nonsense in the US FDA reporter, which is faithfully picked up by Tucker Carlson.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/05/06/tucker-carlsons-worst-vaccine-segment-yet/

This is from the same website as the authors cite:
https://www.lareb.nl/pages/update-van-bijwerkingen
It includes a list of severe side effects that could be linked to the vaccine. Rough maths tells me there were about 62 such reactions in the country of Netherlands. 9M people have received the vaccine there. 62/9M = 0.7/100k vaccines, while they use a number of 16/100k, presumably because they rely on the zero-checks self-reporting system. Great standards, real commitment to learning the truth here.


@DFreshKing
But you know, this exercise is pointless, and this isn't the 1st time I've been involved in this nonsense. You will be back with more junk science from whatever blog or forum you frequent. I will be back to occasionally try and disprove it. I know deep down I'm not convincing you, it is obvious nothing can convince you. So this works mostly as an ego boost for me. It makes me feel good to be able to look into a paper that is so obviously flawed I can find massive mistakes in the 1st few lines I check. But nothing of value happened when I spent 30 mins going into the details of this nonsense and typing it out. You aren't changing your mind, and most people here have made up their minds one way or the other before my post.

There is an entire ecosystem, of which you are a part, which I really hate.
These are new, unproven vaccines. Like AstraZeneca, they may have serious or fatal side effects in some cases. You can read my posts here when I was scared about my mother's reaction to it. But because of people like you, finding trustworthy data is like finding a needle in a haystack. Ludicrously inflated numbers, the least credible scientists, a total lack of quality checks - if Pfizer and AstraZeneca wanted to design an opponent to make themselves look good, they couldn't come up with a better crowd than the anti-vax movement.
@Pogue Mahone
@jojojo
@DFreshKing


from that study - some red flags, some parts had me literally l o l

This is the 1st thing I noticed, it made me laugh because I imagined going to my prof and telling her "look, we got 10 samples, I'm choosing the single best one, just because" and imagining her reaction.



amazing. no reason given to inflate the number by 7 or 45 times! just, we chose the worst data we could find, and moving on now.

1st red flag:
"Received: 2 June 2021 / Revised: 19 June 2021 / Accepted: 21 June 2021"

peer-reviewed and accepted in 3 weeks!!!!! my papers take 6 months, and they aren't life or death issues for anyone.

So, what's this journal with its amazing turn around time? Quoting from here



So the short peer review time starts to make some sense. The 1st comment on the blog is a MDPI editor who says he wasn't given control over who reviews the paper, the journal has their pre-selected reviewers. Something people may not know is that journals charge authors for publication - and there are some notorious open-access journals which charge a lot (over $5k) and accept literally any garbage.
I've read one MDPI paper quite a lot for my work so I know it's not all garbage, but that 3 week turnaround on an obviously questionable study (the section I quoted above is enough for it to fail review), combined with the info in that blog post, suggests MDPI Vaccines might be on the sketchier side.

Because of the sketchiness of the journal, I decided to look at the authors.
First guy is a psychologist, and, wouldn't you know it, has a wikipedia page!

he is currently the director of the Institute of Transcultural Health Studies at Europa Universität Viadrina, Frankfurt/Oder,[2] and the director of the European Office of the Samueli Institute[3] which has funded his work since its inception in 2000. He is course leader of the first postgraduate training course for doctors in complementary medicine and cultural sciences.[4]. The commission by the state of Brandenburg for the review of Universities ("Hochschulstrukturkommission") which reviewed the University Viadrina where his IntraG, funded by Heel (corporation) is located came to the conclusion that this Institute should not be continued within the university

Walach has advocated the revision of the concept of evidence-based medicine (EBM), stressing the importance of a circular model of evidence in medical research and criticising problematic assumptions inherent in the hierarchical structure of current EBM. Harald Walach is member of the scientific advisory board of a blog called "CAM-Media Watch" which is run by a Journalist also paid mainly by Heel (corporation). The blog sees itself as "spin doctor" for press on the subject of Complementary and Alternative Medicine ("CAM") and has been reported to also smear a scientist critical of homeopathy.

So, a homoepathy guy who was kicked out of his own university, and does parapsychology. Claims to be employed in Poland and at a different German university, could find no record of it.

This is the 1st author --- and the most credible.

2nd author is a qualified astronomer with, as far as I can tell, no degree related to bio or health. Claims to be a radio-oncologist, because of the lackof any medical degree, I'm guessing he repairs X-ray machines. He is not listed as a member of the dept he claims to be from.

3rd author is " Independent Data and Pattern Scientist ". Cool.


Back to the substance of the paper:
This is the page they took their side effect numbers from: https://www.lareb.nl/coronameldingen

This is a google translate of the page:


I could and did fill out a form about a side effect on that page with zero checks. (I stopped before the submit). Indeed, people have been filling out nonsense in the US FDA reporter, which is faithfully picked up by Tucker Carlson.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/05/06/tucker-carlsons-worst-vaccine-segment-yet/

This is from the same website as the authors cite:
https://www.lareb.nl/pages/update-van-bijwerkingen
It includes a list of severe side effects that could be linked to the vaccine. Rough maths tells me there were about 62 such reactions in the country of Netherlands. 9M people have received the vaccine there. 62/9M = 0.7/100k vaccines, while they use a number of 16/100k, presumably because they rely on the zero-checks self-reporting system. Great standards, real commitment to learning the truth here.


@DFreshKing
But you know, this exercise is pointless, and this isn't the 1st time I've been involved in this nonsense. You will be back with more junk science from whatever blog or forum you frequent. I will be back to occasionally try and disprove it. I know deep down I'm not convincing you, it is obvious nothing can convince you. So this works mostly as an ego boost for me. It makes me feel good to be able to look into a paper that is so obviously flawed I can find massive mistakes in the 1st few lines I check. But nothing of value happened when I spent 30 mins going into the details of this nonsense and typing it out. You aren't changing your mind, and most people here have made up their minds one way or the other before my post.

There is an entire ecosystem, of which you are a part, which I really hate.
These are new, unproven vaccines. Like AstraZeneca, they may have serious or fatal side effects in some cases. You can read my posts here when I was scared about my mother's reaction to it. But because of people like you, finding trustworthy data is like finding a needle in a haystack. Ludicrously inflated numbers, the least credible scientists, a total lack of quality checks - if Pfizer and AstraZeneca wanted to design an opponent to make themselves look good, they couldn't come up with a better crowd than the anti-vax movement.
Interesting work.
No apparently it's all bullshit and the work of anti vaxxers of which I am assured I am somehow part of. Carry on. :-)
 

DFreshKing

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First impressions
- it suggests that 4 people die for every 100,000 people which is way higher than any actual database has suggested. So, firstly the vaccine risk is likely overstated.
- then they suggest those 4 deaths might save around 6 lives in a group of 100,000 people. if you look at the UK you'll see that around 200 people have died per 100,000 (across the whole population) in the past year and we've only kept it that low in the past by lockdowns. We're now mostly dependant on the vaccines to avoid adding thousands more.

Even if you accept their vaccine fatal reactions case rate (which I don't) then I'd suggest you would also need to accept that they were looking at a low case rate environment - not the one that occurs when restrictions are lifted and the population is unvaccinated.
My impression was little bit different. I understood the authors were more concerned about vaccinating youngsters as the risk profile obviously changes a lot with this virus.

This means the population is quite vaccinated already like the UK with the higher risk groups already covered. Their advice seemed to be let's slow down the rush to risk kids with a vaccine that does have severe reactions in that group while the virus is much less potent.
 
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Ecstatic

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He is. And he continues to have the freedom to post stupid stuff. In multiple threads. The only proviso being the freedom of other people to call the stuff he posts stupid. Freedom of speech working exactly as it should. Great, right?
I confirm you are both free to post here :angel:
 

Stack

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Man-made climate change is not proven but that does not stop your government spending billions of money 'stopping' it or whatever they think they're doing.
Its absolutely proven. The evidence is completely overwhelming. I know this is off topic but in this you are completely and utterly wrong. Horribly so.
 

Carolina Red

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Not proven to work!
How do you prove a drug works?, when:
  • it's a novel illness caused by a new virus
  • the drug, itself, if far more effective when used in a protocol - a combination with other drugs
  • the protocol for this combination must be developed through trial and error
  • it's effective in slowing onset, so allowing immune system more time to react, so reducing severity of symptoms, leading to fewer deaths.
My wife’s experience is also that hydrochloriquin was ineffective.
 

Wibble

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The latest Rogan podcast is all about it, i haven't looked into it but the way the guy goes on about Ivermetcin it sounds far too good to be true it solves everything.

He's trying to paint a picture that it's not being used and ignored because there is no money to be made from it as its a generic drug that is no longer patented.

How true any of this is i have no idea.
More Rogan nonsense. Ivermetcin is treatment for paracites. It is quite dangerous and only just being tested to see if it has benefits for Covid treatment. Even if it does prove to be useful and get FDA approval is will only help treat covid and not prevent it at all. That this is in any way linked by anyone to the need for vaccination is an anti-vaxxers wet dream.

Considering money and people I would say that is a very good bet. We are getting some very good data and peer reviewed analysis coming through now so I would expect some clearer answers soon. I'm glad we are trailing in the UK. A worrying peer reviewed study has come out today that says for every 3 lives saved by the vaccine 2 vaccine deaths are caused so there is no silver bullet. Someone alluded above we have to live with acceptable deaths and that includes from treatments as well as the virus it seems.
Tens of thousands of lives have been saved by the partial rollout in the UK alone and you are claiming that 66% as many have been killed by the vaccine?

This is utter nonsense and dangerous nonsense as well. Do not repeat such rubbish in the fututre.
 

Wibble

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It's not my logic but What expertise do you have over these scientists? I going to hazard a guess that the authors of this study are eminently more qualified that Massive Spanner off redcafe or anyone else on here for that matter. Also the peer review seems to have been accepted but like I said this is not my study.
Peer review? :lol:

It is MDPI. They are an open source publication who have little or no peer review of any sort and nothing that resembles the process that a reputable journal would accept. It is a business that gets payed by academics who can't get enough published by reputable peer reviewed primary literature in an attempt to boost their publication record often in an attempt to get tenure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MDPI

Beall remained critical of MDPI after removing the publisher from his list (of predatory journals) ; in December 2015 he wrote that "it is clear that MDPI sees peer review as merely a perfunctory step that publishers have to endure before publishing papers and accepting money from the authors" and that "it's clear that MDPI's peer review is managed by clueless clerical staff in China."
 

Wibble

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Not proven to work!
How do you prove a drug works?, when:
  • it's a novel illness caused by a new virus
  • the drug, itself, if far more effective when used in a protocol - a combination with other drugs
  • the protocol for this combination must be developed through trial and error
  • it's effective in slowing onset, so allowing immune system more time to react, so reducing severity of symptoms, leading to fewer deaths.
In the meantime, while waiting for a proven drug to work tens of thousands more people dead. 3.5 million dead world-wide now.
Might as well follow Trumps bleach plan by that standard. If a drug helps with the treatment of something it will get FDA (or whatever) approval and then be used to treat covid 19. Although vaccinating so it isn't much needed is a far better idea and an actual solution rather than a potential bandaid..

Man-made climate change is not proven but that does not stop your government spending billions of money 'stopping' it or whatever they think they're doing.
Yes it is and a long time ago no matter how much some people wish it wasn't.

I trust doctors, who use this drug (or not) with real patients. I distrust armchair experts, newspaper editors, social media 'fact checkers', and government spin doctors: dictating to us - doctors and sick people - what we're allowed to do.

Facts are: ivermectin is proven to work, in combination with other medicines to slow disease onset. Because it's off-patent no drug company funded a big trial. So published studies show small samples. Small samples, according to you, say it's unproven. That's a self-fulfilling prophecy to benefit big pharma.
The fact is that it isn't currently proven to work and/or be safe and we need to be doubly cautious because it was originally pushed by a South African anti-vax group. It has also become an anti vaxxers go to fake claim now that hydroxychloroquine has been (unsuprisingly) shown not to help with the same claims of mysterious powerful people supressing its use because ... erm ... money or something.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_misinformation#Ivermectin

If it works and is safe it will get regulated and used as a small part of treating covid or possibly used as is since it like some steroids are.
 
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Wibble

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@Pogue Mahone
@jojojo
@DFreshKing


from that study - some red flags, some parts had me literally l o l

This is the 1st thing I noticed, it made me laugh because I imagined going to my prof and telling her "look, we got 10 samples, I'm choosing the single best one, just because" and imagining her reaction.



amazing. no reason given to inflate the number by 7 or 45 times! just, we chose the worst data we could find, and moving on now.

1st red flag:
"Received: 2 June 2021 / Revised: 19 June 2021 / Accepted: 21 June 2021"

peer-reviewed and accepted in 3 weeks!!!!! my papers take 6 months, and they aren't life or death issues for anyone.

So, what's this journal with its amazing turn around time? Quoting from here



So the short peer review time starts to make some sense. The 1st comment on the blog is a MDPI editor who says he wasn't given control over who reviews the paper, the journal has their pre-selected reviewers. Something people may not know is that journals charge authors for publication - and there are some notorious open-access journals which charge a lot (over $5k) and accept literally any garbage.
I've read one MDPI paper quite a lot for my work so I know it's not all garbage, but that 3 week turnaround on an obviously questionable study (the section I quoted above is enough for it to fail review), combined with the info in that blog post, suggests MDPI Vaccines might be on the sketchier side.

Because of the sketchiness of the journal, I decided to look at the authors.
First guy is a psychologist, and, wouldn't you know it, has a wikipedia page!

he is currently the director of the Institute of Transcultural Health Studies at Europa Universität Viadrina, Frankfurt/Oder,[2] and the director of the European Office of the Samueli Institute[3] which has funded his work since its inception in 2000. He is course leader of the first postgraduate training course for doctors in complementary medicine and cultural sciences.[4]. The commission by the state of Brandenburg for the review of Universities ("Hochschulstrukturkommission") which reviewed the University Viadrina where his IntraG, funded by Heel (corporation) is located came to the conclusion that this Institute should not be continued within the university

Walach has advocated the revision of the concept of evidence-based medicine (EBM), stressing the importance of a circular model of evidence in medical research and criticising problematic assumptions inherent in the hierarchical structure of current EBM. Harald Walach is member of the scientific advisory board of a blog called "CAM-Media Watch" which is run by a Journalist also paid mainly by Heel (corporation). The blog sees itself as "spin doctor" for press on the subject of Complementary and Alternative Medicine ("CAM") and has been reported to also smear a scientist critical of homeopathy.

So, a homoepathy guy who was kicked out of his own university, and does parapsychology. Claims to be employed in Poland and at a different German university, could find no record of it.

This is the 1st author --- and the most credible.

2nd author is a qualified astronomer with, as far as I can tell, no degree related to bio or health. Claims to be a radio-oncologist, because of the lackof any medical degree, I'm guessing he repairs X-ray machines. He is not listed as a member of the dept he claims to be from.

3rd author is " Independent Data and Pattern Scientist ". Cool.


Back to the substance of the paper:
This is the page they took their side effect numbers from: https://www.lareb.nl/coronameldingen

This is a google translate of the page:


I could and did fill out a form about a side effect on that page with zero checks. (I stopped before the submit). Indeed, people have been filling out nonsense in the US FDA reporter, which is faithfully picked up by Tucker Carlson.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/05/06/tucker-carlsons-worst-vaccine-segment-yet/

This is from the same website as the authors cite:
https://www.lareb.nl/pages/update-van-bijwerkingen
It includes a list of severe side effects that could be linked to the vaccine. Rough maths tells me there were about 62 such reactions in the country of Netherlands. 9M people have received the vaccine there. 62/9M = 0.7/100k vaccines, while they use a number of 16/100k, presumably because they rely on the zero-checks self-reporting system. Great standards, real commitment to learning the truth here.


@DFreshKing
But you know, this exercise is pointless, and this isn't the 1st time I've been involved in this nonsense. You will be back with more junk science from whatever blog or forum you frequent. I will be back to occasionally try and disprove it. I know deep down I'm not convincing you, it is obvious nothing can convince you. So this works mostly as an ego boost for me. It makes me feel good to be able to look into a paper that is so obviously flawed I can find massive mistakes in the 1st few lines I check. But nothing of value happened when I spent 30 mins going into the details of this nonsense and typing it out. You aren't changing your mind, and most people here have made up their minds one way or the other before my post.

There is an entire ecosystem, of which you are a part, which I really hate.
These are new, unproven vaccines. Like AstraZeneca, they may have serious or fatal side effects in some cases. You can read my posts here when I was scared about my mother's reaction to it. But because of people like you, finding trustworthy data is like finding a needle in a haystack. Ludicrously inflated numbers, the least credible scientists, a total lack of quality checks - if Pfizer and AstraZeneca wanted to design an opponent to make themselves look good, they couldn't come up with a better crowd than the anti-vax movement.
The problem with this organisation's journals isn't just that lots of rubbish gets published but that you can't trust any of it, even good stuff, due to the utterly flawed peer review method they use which is really just lip service. The point of proper peer review is that you can have some degree of confidence about all papers published by that particular journal.
 

Kopral Jono

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We've had our worst spikes due to the Eid homecoming tradition.

BOR (Bed occupancy Rate) is above 90% in most big cities, people are being treated in hallways and some in parking lot.

Things looks quite serious.

You stay save eh @Kopral Jono

I'ma vaccine hunting tomorrow :( :nervous:
Thank you @Sky1981, you keep yourself safe, too. It's scary out there. I bet you've seen the Bekasi video doing the rounds where folks are being treated on pickup trucks, while sitting down under the hot sun... they remind me of the scenes in Italy during the height of the first wave and India just a few months ago.

An old, overweight uncle with a history of heart disease caught the virus a few days ago but is showing very little to no symptoms due to being fully vaccinated, so please get vaccinated as soon as you possibly can. Vaccine works -- even Chinese-made ones.
 

Sky1981

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Thank you @Sky1981, you keep yourself safe, too. It's scary out there. I bet you've seen the Bekasi video doing the rounds where folks are being treated on pickup trucks, while sitting down under the hot sun... they remind me of the scenes in Italy during the height of the first wave and India just a few months ago.

An old, overweight uncle with a history of heart disease caught the virus a few days ago but is showing very little to no symptoms due to being fully vaccinated, so please get vaccinated as soon as you possibly can. Vaccine works -- even Chinese-made ones.
The china one is the most sought after here.

Az is.... scarry.
Moderna JNJ pfizer are for the rich
Sinovac it is.

I visited 8 spots and all got rejected due to full. I went 70km to cianjur and finally got a number
 

Kopral Jono

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The china one is the most sought after here.

Az is.... scarry.
Moderna JNJ pfizer are for the rich
Sinovac it is.

I visited 8 spots and all got rejected due to full. I went 70km to cianjur and finally got a number
Very true. I've known friends of my late father who flew to Los Angeles during the Eid break, taking advantage of the cheap flights, just to get a Pfizer/Moderna shot. My philosophy on this is take whichever brand is available to you first, so when I was offered with Sinovac around April it was a no-brainer. I took a Covid antibody test a few weeks ago to check if my body is responding well to it and it did.

In any case I'm relieved to hear that you're finally inoculated. Cianjur has Sinovac?
 

Sky1981

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Very true. I've known friends of my late father who flew to Los Angeles during the Eid break, taking advantage of the cheap flights, just to get a Pfizer/Moderna shot. My philosophy on this is take whichever brand is available to you first, so when I was offered with Sinovac around April it was a no-brainer. I took a Covid antibody test a few weeks ago to check if my body is responding well to it and it did.

In any case I'm relieved to hear that you're finally inoculated. Cianjur has Sinovac?
Kimia farma sinopharm. Whatever that means :nervous:

Anyway. Got mine. Thankfully.

@Lj82 thank you. You too stay safe there
 

decorativeed

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Interesting work.


No apparently it's all bullshit and the work of anti vaxxers of which I am assured I am somehow part of. Carry on. :-)
It's probably just becuase you've got a recent history in this thread of bad takes. Your previous batch of posts here was going on about mRNA vaccines and blood clots.

This was your response to a graphic about mRNA:

Interesting graphic but this article does suggest the spike protein gets in the cells and is the reason for the risk of blood clot (which remember when it was first found was called fake news). Now they have a fix it has been accepted as a 'rare' risk.


https://www.ft.com/content/f76eb802-ec05-4461-9956-b250115d0577
You link to a paywalled article about the blood clotting issue, despite that being a serious side effect of the AZ vaccine - which isn't mRNA.

Maybe it's worth accepting to you're not an expert in the field, unlike some of the medical professionals in here?
 

Ady87

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Just watched some of the ‘freedom March’ live stream. Happened to tune in at the exact time a wild Karen was screaming at a couple out shopping, one of them wearing a mask. She spat on them too. Then a really obnoxious boomer lady pops up out of nowhere to stick the boot in verbally rather than offer any help. Loads of 5G and Great Reset signs etc, absolute horror show. They are all out crying on Twitter that their ‘huge crowd’ isn’t getting coverage on BBC etc
 

Tony Babangida

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1st red flag:
"Received: 2 June 2021 / Revised: 19 June 2021 / Accepted: 21 June 2021
MPDI are such shit journals - their peer review process is a joke. I've reviewed for them and they just ignored both of the reviewer comments and published the article with no changes. They are a predatory publishing group and I wouldn't take on board anything you read there without a huge dose of skepticism. I don't review for them anymore, just the once.
 

Bwuk

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Tested positive on a lateral flow test yesterday, so went and got tested. Waiting on the results but think I’ve got it sadly.

If I don’t it’s the worst case of man flu ever. I’m in complete bits.